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Thread: AWOL v. CS 17

  1. #36
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    Default Re: AWOL v. CS 17

    Actually there is a lot of stuff out there that can drop a mast quickly, something that has been done for a thousand years.
    Ben Fuller
    Ran Tan, Liten Kuhling, Tipsy, Tippy, Josef W., Merry Mouth, Imp, Macavity, Look Far, Flash and a quiver of other 'yaks.
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  2. #37
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    Default Re: AWOL v. CS 17

    Ran Tan for one. But not most of the mall boats people like to race,

  3. #38
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    Default Re: AWOL v. CS 17

    One problem with the CS is that reefing is rolling sails around 2 masts, and this was a line squall which was definitely 40. I had a mizzen up and I had to lift the board as well to stop the boat tripping. Luckily it was over in a few minutes. Perhaps i was a bit harsh on the CS but its not really suited to windy conditions, but any open boat in sustained 40kts is probably going to be in serious trouble. I do know the awol was surviving quite well in a very choppy 35kts until it got swamped and the hatches leaked enough for it to capsize and become unrightable for the lone sailor onboard. I was sailing the same water in a keeler and it was not pleasant, I wasnt worried but it was hard work and I had the cockpit filled a few times. I was very glad to get home that day as it was so draining. Horses for courses though, the CS would be fine boat in most daysailing conditions, I think the awol is more sporty and better looking!
    whatever rocks your boat

  4. #39
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    Default Re: AWOL v. CS 17

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul G. View Post
    One problem with the CS is that reefing is rolling sails around 2 masts, and this was a line squall which was definitely 40. I had a mizzen up and I had to lift the board as well to stop the boat tripping. Luckily it was over in a few minutes. Perhaps i was a bit harsh on the CS but its not really suited to windy conditions, but any open boat in sustained 40kts is probably going to be in serious trouble. I do know the awol was surviving quite well in a very choppy 35kts until it got swamped and the hatches leaked enough for it to capsize and become unrightable for the lone sailor onboard. I was sailing the same water in a keeler and it was not pleasant, I wasnt worried but it was hard work and I had the cockpit filled a few times. I was very glad to get home that day as it was so draining. Horses for courses though, the CS would be fine boat in most daysailing conditions, I think the awol is more sporty and better looking!
    Paul, There are several ways that the CS can be rigged and rolling the sails around the masts is only one. It is one method and is by far the simplest. The advantages of rolled sails on the masts is so great that many choose that method, especially in areas where conditions allow. Taking only 10 minutes to rig and launch a boat, as with my first cat-ketch, is a great attraction which I miss on my current boat with sail tracks and battened sails. Many, if not most are currently rigged with sail tracks and can be reefed just like AWOL or other boats. Suppose the AWOL you saw had no way to reef, what would be your opinion then? Some CS boats may even have lugsails which can be dropped or reefed even quicker in a hard chance than AWOL, which cannot have a lugsail because of mast stays. Some even have tabernackles so masts can be dropped. Its up to the builder how they rig the boat. Freestanding masts lend themselves to a variation of rigging choices and is a great benefit which is being found on more boats lately and is a fixture of all CS and other similar cat ketches.

    I hate to keep harping on it, but your opinion is based on faulty information and is simply not true.

    If the regatta storm that Ben Fuller referred to was in October, 1966 and highlighted in One Design Magazine, I was in that event in my Windmill and a novice as a racing sailor. It was the Virginia Governor's Cup and very few boats in the large fleet were spared, Lightnings, Flying Scots and catamarans included. The biggest, blackest and worst storm I was ever caught in small boat racing. We were knocked down harder than in any other capsize in my sailing life. The wind kept rotating the boat, lifting the sail and flipped it two more times as me and my crew hung on to the bow and stern. I got hypothermia and took a couple hours to recover after being rescued. With so many boats swamped, rescue boats went around asking if anyone was in trouble before picking them up. Coast guard recorded winds of 65kts or mph. The difference is of no consequence since we were gone anyway.

    By the way, very few small racing dinghys are equipped for reefing. As for personal attraction to one or the other, that is up to the individual and I can't argue with your view on that. AWOL is a handsome boat. I am reluctant to get so involved in this argument but could not let your dissing of a great boat stand unchallenged.
    Last edited by Tom Lathrop; 02-04-2013 at 10:37 PM.
    Tom L

  5. #40
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    Default Re: AWOL v. CS 17

    Tom,

    You got the squall; I did not realize it had been written up in One Design. I missed it as I had just gone back to college (where I was on the sailing team) and my Jet was tucked into my parents boathouse ( aka the garage). The dinghy cruising folks in the UK have set up boats for reefing, as, of course, did Uffa back in the day. Nowadays if the fleet can't depower with a bendy rig the race doesn't usually start. Happens at around 25 knots as I recall.
    Ben Fuller
    Ran Tan, Liten Kuhling, Tipsy, Tippy, Josef W., Merry Mouth, Imp, Macavity, Look Far, Flash and a quiver of other 'yaks.
    "Bound fast is boatless man."

  6. #41
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    Default Re: AWOL v. CS 17

    I hate to keep harping on it, but your opinion is based on faulty information and is simply not true
    Tom, I'm not sure what info you're saying is faulty, perhaps Im out a few kts but we regularly sail in 30 (especially this summer) and often gusting more but even allowing for misjudging the wind speed, I still wouldnt go anywhere too windy in a CS. AWOL all the way!

    I just got of the phone with the AWOL owner and he reminded me of his 150 mile cruise up the Northland coast only a few weeks ago in some pretty testing conditions i.e. 30 plus kts of wind and 2m swells, doing 5 kts under bare poles coming across river bars and more hair raising tales yet to be told online. The owner is experienced and doesn't exaggerate and he would, "never put to sea in that POS CS 17!". His words not mine!!!



    Thought you might like the sexy Pic!

    A note on wind speed, here in AK if youre not comfortable with 20kt breezes you had better stick to knitting. 20 is often here in the afternoon sea breezes and to me 20 is the beginning of hard work, its hard to go to windward with the apparent coming across the deck at least 25 plus, its hard to reef and douse etc its the beginning of a breeze you have to start really being alert to the boat and surrounding land masses. From there on upwards it really depends on the direction youre going and the size of boat. Since this discussion is about open boats I would say that 25 is probably as much as I would really want to be out in for any length of time even downwind on a sunny day. As the seas build and the wind swings and gusts, as dusk draws near and youre tired and alone, the last thing you want to be doing is sailing on the edge of capsize or broach.
    The first windy day I sailed my pathfinder was a snotty 20-25 plus south easterly and I had to hang on alright! I remember phoning John all excited about fountains of water squirting out either side of the boat as I powered across the Motuihe channel in my fresh faced naiivety! Nowadays I would put a reef in! That boat was solidly built, with a 70 plus kg weighted board, low aspect gaff yawl rig. I would not have wanted to be out in that on my friends CS 17, at least not one up as I noticed that when we were sailing side by side he was stacking out and the boat was on its ear while I was comfortably snugged up in the cockpit.
    Last edited by Paul G.; 02-04-2013 at 11:18 PM.
    whatever rocks your boat

  7. #42
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    Default Re: AWOL v. CS 17

    I really like that AWOL but I can't agree with the idea the the CS is unsuitable for higher winds. I've sailed several of the Tx 200 events where 30+ winds are common. There are usually a couple of CSs around and I've not seen or heard of any problems. Graham even sailed the 1st one in the EC 22 - now that's a sweet boat.

  8. #43
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    Default Re: AWOL v. CS 17

    Heres some nice footage of the CS in ideal conditions, it was fast and fun!



    But notice how tippy it is compared to the Nav and Pathfinder
    whatever rocks your boat

  9. #44
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    Default Re: AWOL v. CS 17

    Look I could be wrong, and it may be how this CS was setup.
    whatever rocks your boat

  10. #45
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    Default Re: AWOL v. CS 17

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul G. View Post
    Tom, I'm not sure what info you're saying is faulty, perhaps Im out a few kts but we regularly sail in 30 (especially this summer) and often gusting more but even allowing for misjudging the wind speed,Perhaps i was a bit harsh on the CS but its not really suited to windy conditions. AWOL all the way!

    I just got of the phone with the AWOL owner and he reminded me of his 150 mile cruise up the Northland coast only a few weeks ago in some pretty testing conditions i.e. 30 plus kts of wind and 2m swells, doing 5 kts under bare poles coming across river bars and more hair raising tales yet to be told online. The owner is experienced and doesn't exaggerate and he would, "never put to sea in that POS CS 17!". His words not mine!!!

    Thought you might like the sexy Pic!
    The faulty information is thinking that all CS are rigged like the one you saw. I tried to enlighten you but have obviously failed.

    "Perhaps i was a bit harsh on the CS but its not really suited to windy conditions"
    " I still wouldnt go anywhere too windy in a CS"
    "But notice how tippy it is compared to the Nav and Pathfinder".....People see what they want to see.

    Those are the statements that I consider ill informed. I invite you to read my whole post and offer judgement on specifics, not the blanket assertions that I know from personal experience are faulty and run counter to well know basics of sailboat design. As for your friend, I guess I have no comment on ignorance. The CS has sailed in a 300 mile ocean race in Florida that starts at a specific time and date each year, regardless of conditions. Sailors go or not when they feel up to it but their time is based on the official start. No CS has failed to finish and has also won the event multiple times.

    My last words on the subject........Peace

    The photo is very nice.
    Last edited by Tom Lathrop; 02-04-2013 at 11:43 PM.
    Tom L

  11. #46
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    Default Re: AWOL v. CS 17

    The CS has sailed in a 300 mile ocean race in Florida
    Tom, thanks for your comments however I think what you are referring to as an ocean race and what we here in NZ call an ocean race are two different things. I would take neither craft offshore. I read your post again and if you're saying that the ability to reef is the main factor in seaworthiness of the design I respectfully disagree. At this size I think the biggest factor is the sailor! I havent seen the CS and AWOL side by side in the same conditions but have seen the CS and Navigator/Pathfinder and there is no question in my mind which is the superior design for our conditions.
    whatever rocks your boat

  12. #47
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    Default Re: AWOL v. CS 17

    No, no, I think JohnW got it right back in post #35.

    Mind you, I think my own preferred reefing schedule for 40kts is: one pair of oars, spars struck, looking to control drift enough to aim for a soft spot on the leeward shore. Yikes!

  13. #48
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    Default Re: AWOL v. CS 17

    Quote Originally Posted by James McMullen View Post
    No, no, I think JohnW got it right back in post #35.

    Mind you, I think my own preferred reefing schedule for 40kts is: one pair of oars, spars struck, looking to control drift enough to aim for a soft spot on the leeward shore. Yikes!
    James, what you're telling me is that neither the AWOL, CS17 or your boat is suitable for Cape Town summer conditions (see windguru WRF 9km forecast, scroll to bottom : http://www.windguru.cz/int/index.php?sc=91)
    Especially since we don't have too many soft spots on our coastline. And when Windguru says 26knots gusting 33, you can usually take these as average windstrengths and add 5-6knots.

    I guess I'm going to have to settle on a Navigator / Pilgrim then !

  14. #49
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    Default Re: AWOL v. CS 17

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul G. View Post
    Tom, thanks for your comments however I think what you are referring to as an ocean race and what we here in NZ call an ocean race are two different things. I would take neither craft offshore. I read your post again and if you're saying that the ability to reef is the main factor in seaworthiness of the design I respectfully disagree. At this size I think the biggest factor is the sailor! I havent seen the CS and AWOL side by side in the same conditions but have seen the CS and Navigator/Pathfinder and there is no question in my mind which is the superior design for our conditions.
    The Everglades Challenge is 300 miles from St Petersburg to Key Largo with several difficult to get to check points in between, bridges, areas usually requiring rowing and one short portage. Race starts above the tide line on the beach.. Its open to any boat that can fit the problems of the course, which are varied and self limiting. Kayaks travel an inside route with limited ocean exposure. Sailboats, if they are interested in winning, take the offshore path. Its early spring so the weather can be very mixed with fronts passing in from the Gulf of Mexico irregularly. Single handers generally need to stop to rest somewhere. Tidal flats of Florida Bay may find water so thin (usually caused by a headwind) that navigating a path is very challenging. In other words, its a real challenge of boat and people and many fail to finish. It is not even the most difficult race there. That is the 1200 mile race around the state of which the EC is the first leg. That includes a 40 mile portage. AWOL would be a good boat for the 300 mile event provided the mast could be struck quickly for the bridges. A CS is just about ideal.

    I never said that ability to reef is the main criteria for seaworthiness. What I did say is that the CS you saw did not have this ability which clearly limited its handling in high wind. The other factors in the designs are also very important. Low center of effort, split sail area and a hard bilge also contribute to ability to carry on in high wind in any boat.

    I wish you could understand my point that this is not a battle between two boats, both of which I like a lot. Its a discussion of factors that contribute to or limit standing up to strong wind. If you are being influenced by the source of the boats, I will tell you that both designers are from down under.
    Last edited by Tom Lathrop; 02-05-2013 at 09:32 AM.
    Tom L

  15. #50
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    Default Re: AWOL v. CS 17

    I think a big plus for the CS is it's apparent relaxed mode of sailing, especially in an endurance type race, keeping the skipper fresh is important! can anyone who's traveled far in one concur or does it have an abrupt movement in the seas that might tire out a sailor over an extended voyage?

  16. #51
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    Default Re: AWOL v. CS 17

    I haven't read all the posts, but BANDALOOP in post #1 of this thread is my CS-17.

    I have not ever seen or sailed AWOL so I can't speak to its attributes compared to my boat. I do admire the design very much and think it would do well in raid events.

    My boat is set up with sail tracks and has two reefs in each sail. It handles high winds with aplomb. I personally think the boat is undercanvassed for light airs and doesn't really start to come into its own until you get 10-12 knots of breeze. When sailing singlehanded I don't think about putting in the first reef until about 15-18 knots. The boat is easily managed by playing the main up to that point. You don't need the second reef until it's blowing in the 20s pretty solidly. It really needs more sail area for the type of sailing I do mostly. Phil Garland, proprietor of Hall Spars, just built his CS-17 and fitted it with ~1 foot longer masts and squaretop sails and I'll be really interested to see how it compares.

    As for speed, the boat as fast as any other 17'er in non-planing conditions although kind of sticky in really light winds. Once you get enough wind to plane, it hauls the mail.

    The boat has a really nice motion in the waves, reminiscent of a much larger craft. It is wet upwind, however. Waves hit the straight sides an splash just at the right height to hit you square in the chest when you are on the rail. Foulies are a good idea if is at all cool.

    It's not too bad the strike the rigs underway, although standing on the foredeck pulling the main feels a bit precarious at times. I have yet to fall off or capsize the boat. During last year's EC I had to strike and re-rig four times before I got to Checkpoint 1 in Placida, and it wasn't too awful. My boat was one of three that finished out of the 15 that started the shorter Ultramarathon that runs concurrently with the EC.

    For beach cruising, I think the CS-17 is a little tight for two and prefer to go singlehanded. IF you want to sail two up, the CS-20 would be better choice.

    FWIW, I don't find my boat to be at all 'tippy'. She puts her shoulder down and just goes.

    Let me know if you have any other questions.

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    Default Re: AWOL v. CS 17

    Quote Originally Posted by James McMullen View Post
    I have sailed next to a Core Sound 17 for a day in Rowan in winds of about 10 kts, and I have to say my observations were much the same as Dan Noyes. In those winds, I was faster on every point of sail by a considerable amount. Had there been enough wind to plane, the CS would likely have been able to take off, but not that day, not at all.
    Isn't ROWAN a good two feet longer than a CS-17? I sometimes race with bigger displacement boats and get waterlined by them all the time.

    Ten knots is kind of annoying wind speed because even though you are going well, you know with just a little more pressure the boat will simply fly! In 13-14 knots of wind we start walking away from the Catalina 22s and their ilk.

  18. #53
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    Default Re: AWOL v. CS 17

    Quote Originally Posted by John Bell View Post
    Isn't ROWAN a good two feet longer than a CS-17? I sometimes race with bigger displacement boats and get waterlined by them all the time.

    Ten knots is kind of annoying wind speed because even though you are going well, you know with just a little more pressure the boat will simply fly! In 13-14 knots of wind we start walking away from the Catalina 22s and their ilk.
    Length ain't everything, and Rowan has overhangs. My 17-foot sharpie, Black Swan, beats Rowan to windward, but I wouldn't want to have to strike the rig (which came off my old Snipe) and put it up again while under way, and I suspect the boats are fairly evenly matched on a reach until my boat starts to plane.

  19. #54
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    Default Re: AWOL v. CS 17

    What is the mission???These boats are apples and oranges. One excells in certain conditions, while the other is less stellar. In other conditions the reverse is true.
    Awol looks a little more exciting. You perhaps need to be more active to get the best, but it is worth it.
    CS 17 looks a little less exciting, more relaxed, but still with enough performance to impress a lot of folks at the Florida Challenge races.
    I have only seen photos of either of these boats, and have no first hand knowledge.

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    Default Re: AWOL v. CS 17

    We do all have our strong opinions on boats, don't we? I'll say that I started this thread because I felt the boats were very much alike in their design briefs. Light, fast camp cruiser/racers. Of course rigs and hull shapes will vary to what each designer prefers, but these boats I feel show that similar results can come from very different approaches.

    Core Sounds have an excellent following and have proven up to many tough tasks. They are adaptable and the CS20 "Dawn Patrol" has shown and can evolve like the one off EC22. Those are traits that we haven't seen YET with AWOL. AWOL also comes from a fine background and designer. I feel though comparing her to her cousins in the navigator or pilgrim lines seems a bit off due to the differing briefs for each. Certainly we will have lots of time and hopefully some head to head comparisons with which to grade these boats, but for now we'll just have to keep dreaming.

    Thanks to everyone for chiming in.

    Brent

  21. #56
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    Default Re: AWOL v. CS 17

    I have sailed alongside the CS 17 and I wouldn't be surprised if they were a bit quicker in lighter airs, but when the **** hits the fan Awol digs her teeth her and just gets on with job of heading in the direction she's pointed, where as from what I have seen of the CS in those sort of conditions, I for one would not wish to stray to far from a safe harbour. Well not around here any ways.

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    Default Re: AWOL v. CS 17

    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Lathrop View Post
    The above observations of relative boat speed could well be right but the element of relative sailor skill is not known. The CS series is under rigged by comparison with practically all one design boats of similar size and they were not designed for racing. The mention of a Windmill brings it a bit in focus as I have a lot of experience with them. A windmill is lighter smaller and has more sail area on an arguably more efficient rig than a CS17 for most courses. With the same sail area and size, a Snipe is heavier and will be a bit slower on most courses. A Thistle is relative over canvassed and one of the fastest boats of its type around but was beaten by a Windmill in a "heavy weather" one-of-a-kind regatta on San Fransisco Bay, sponsored by One Deign and Offshore Sailing Magazine. In this regatta, no race was counted if the wind dropped below 15kts. The Windmill was first over all classes that participated.
    I'm guessing the Thistle, like almost all Thistles, was not set up for reefing. Makes all the difference when it breezes up, especially when short handed.

    Has anyone ever attempted the EC in a Thistle?

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  23. #58
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    Default Re: AWOL v. CS 17

    Quote Originally Posted by Binnacle Bat View Post

    Has anyone ever attempted the EC in a Thistle?

    Allan
    Lightings have completed several ECs. No Thistles have attempted. If sailing Lightning on the EC is purgatory, a Thistle would be hell.

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    Default Re: AWOL v. CS 17

    Quote Originally Posted by John Bell View Post
    Lightings have completed several ECs. No Thistles have attempted. If sailing Lightning on the EC is purgatory, a Thistle would be hell.
    True sayings, John. Sailing comfort and Thistle don't fit in the same sentence.
    Tom L

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    Default Re: AWOL v. CS 17

    Hopefully someone can enter an AWOL in the Everglades Challenge and show folks how its done.

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    Default Re: AWOL v. CS 17

    Had to look up the Thistle, and yeah, I'll pass on that as a EC boat. I'm sure many if not all have seen this video covering the 2013 EC, but if not here's the link:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...=e6tLgJX9niM#!

    If you couldn't use and AWOL or CS(any size) as a fast racer/expedition cruiser, what boat would you choose?

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    Default Re: AWOL v. CS 17

    How well did the Gougeon brothers do in Hot Canary a few years ago?
    No adversary is worse than bad advice.

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    Default Re: AWOL v. CS 17

    Quote Originally Posted by Figment View Post
    How well did the Gougeon brothers do in Hot Canary a few years ago?
    They did quite well and in comfort. It took about 20 of us to lift the boat off the trailer and onto the beach. Chief probably would not like to see it again as it is a bit beyond the scope of the Watertribe ethos.

    If you couldn't use and AWOL or CS(any size) as a fast racer/expedition cruiser, what boat would you choose?
    AWOL would be fine, as would a lot of other Welsford designs, Navigator, Pathfinder, or Walkabout. Chuck and Gary did pretty well in their Walkabout this year.

    I think one of the Searunner 20 trimarans looks like a good boat for the course. Since I already have a Core Sound 17, I'm going with that in 2014.

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    Default Re: AWOL v. CS 17

    Does anyone know of any AWOLs or CSs that are racing under a Portsmouth Yardstick number? I was just having a look at the current centerboard list and could help but think where it might lay in the list.

    This is the list I'm looking at: http://offshore.ussailing.org/Portsm...rd_Classes.htm

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    Default Re: AWOL v. CS 17

    I've tried racing with wild-assed guess DPN of 96.8 on my CS-17 without wind speed corrections. In light air BF 0-1 I can tell you 96.8 is way too low. My guess is it should break down as such:

    BF 0-1 = ~104
    BF 2-3 = ~98
    BF 4 = ~96
    BF 5-9 ~94-96

    I hope to get a few more starts in this fall when it's usually a lot windier and we'll see how it goes.

  31. #66
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    Default Re: AWOL v. CS 17

    All this discussion of the speed of AWOL vs Core Sound 17 really makes no sense as neither was designed as a racing boat. Either would be trounced by several similar sized racing boats. That is also unimportant as most racing boats don't measure up too well as family day sailors and beach campers. The earlier comment by our NZ friend about the CS is an uninformed opinion though, as has been proven often in the EC as well as other events where many boats have sailed together. I sail Lapwing which was designed as a lapstrake version of the CS15. Sailing with about 50 other boats in the Small Reach Regatta in Maine, the fastest boat by far was Southern Skimmer, which is sort of like a CS22 on steroids. The Small Reach Regatta brings out a mix of different boats as well as a mix of sailing skills. On the day when there was very good wind, the second fastest boat was Lapwing although I don't think any conclusion about the boats can be drawn from that either. I have much respect for John Welsford as a designer would like to sail an AWOL and think it would be a great boat but I KNOW that the CS also a great boat in its intended element.

    An example of the apple and orange situation is comparing the 22' Sea Pearl to the CS family. In very light wind, a Sea Pearl is faster than all the CS boats, including the Southern Skimmer which will surprise many. Let the wind pick up and all of the Core Sounds and their cousin Bay River Skiffs down to the 15 footers take off and leave the Sea Pearls and similar boats way behind. The reasons for this are obvious. Sea Pearl is a displacement double ender of very slack bilges that is much more tender and must be reefed early. The broad sterns and hard chines of the CS allow them to just hop on plane and become easy to handle while the sailors in Sea Pearls are wallowing and fighting for control if they have not reefed. So, choose an apple or an orange but don't try to compare them.
    Tom L

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    Default Re: AWOL v. CS 17

    I just wanted to say that my inquiry into the PN rating was more to understand how fast the boats are, not which one is faster. I sometimes feel like I'm in sailing purgatory here in Minneapolis, there not being much to experience aside from club 420s, lasers, and a couple classes of scows (mc, c, and a few A and E). My asking was just trying to understand what one may sail like without having had the chance to see or sail one myself. I completely agree with the apples and oranges of many different designs, but the idea of these boats as fast camp cruising boats, I feel still applies. I have no preference for prejudices in either direction, I'm just doing my best to ask mindful questions and expand my understanding via my couch and laptop.

    Brent

  33. #68
    Join Date
    Dec 1999
    Location
    Oriental, NC USA
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    4,687

    Default Re: AWOL v. CS 17

    Quote Originally Posted by John Bell View Post
    I've tried racing with wild-assed guess DPN of 96.8 on my CS-17 without wind speed corrections. In light air BF 0-1 I can tell you 96.8 is way too low. My guess is it should break down as such:

    BF 0-1 = ~104
    BF 2-3 = ~98
    BF 4 = ~96
    BF 5-9 ~94-96

    I hope to get a few more starts in this fall when it's usually a lot windier and we'll see how it goes.
    John, Your guesses are as good as anyone's. I tried my Lapwing at a PN of 99 in the Woodenboat Regatta at Rock Hall and can tell you that it simply does not have enough sail area to meet that number. The wind was not high enough to compare in planing conditions. A Windmill has the same area on an arguably more efficient sloop sailplan and rates from about 93 down to 86 something. Active racers like the Windmill will have faster ratings because PN is a performance rating and more skilled sailors make for lower ratings.
    Tom L

  34. #69
    Join Date
    Mar 2000
    Location
    Acworth, GA
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    3,960

    Default Re: AWOL v. CS 17

    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Lathrop View Post
    John, Your guesses are as good as anyone's. I tried my Lapwing at a PN of 99 in the Woodenboat Regatta at Rock Hall and can tell you that it simply does not have enough sail area to meet that number. The wind was not high enough to compare in planing conditions. A Windmill has the same area on an arguably more efficient sloop sailplan and rates from about 93 down to 86 something. Active racers like the Windmill will have faster ratings because PN is a performance rating and more skilled sailors make for lower ratings.
    There are a lot of Catalina 22s where I race, and they have DPN of 96. If it's BF3 or less, they eat me up and spit me out. I don't have enough data to compare at higher windspeeds. I do know downwind and reaching I'm generally faster than they are n BF4 or better. I passed a bunch of them under sail in the Gulf ICW back in May on a tight reach, but none of them were trying too hard, and some were even motoring. Our small boat cruise coincided with a C-22 group cruise.

  35. #70
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Posts
    171

    Default Re: AWOL v. CS 17

    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Lathrop View Post
    All this discussion of the speed of AWOL vs Core Sound 17 really makes no sense as neither was designed as a racing boat. Either would be trounced by several similar sized racing boats. That is also unimportant as most racing boats don't measure up too well as family day sailors and beach campers. The earlier comment by our NZ friend about the CS is an uninformed opinion though, as has been proven often in the EC as well as other events where many boats have sailed together. I sail Lapwing which was designed as a lapstrake version of the CS15. Sailing with about 50 other boats in the Small Reach Regatta in Maine, the fastest boat by far was Southern Skimmer, which is sort of like a CS22 on steroids. The Small Reach Regatta brings out a mix of different boats as well as a mix of sailing skills. On the day when there was very good wind, the second fastest boat was Lapwing although I don't think any conclusion about the boats can be drawn from that either. I have much respect for John Welsford as a designer would like to sail an AWOL and think it would be a great boat but I KNOW that the CS also a great boat in its intended element.

    An example of the apple and orange situation is comparing the 22' Sea Pearl to the CS family. In very light wind, a Sea Pearl is faster than all the CS boats, including the Southern Skimmer which will surprise many. Let the wind pick up and all of the Core Sounds and their cousin Bay River Skiffs down to the 15 footers take off and leave the Sea Pearls and similar boats way behind. The reasons for this are obvious. Sea Pearl is a displacement double ender of very slack bilges that is much more tender and must be reefed early. The broad sterns and hard chines of the CS allow them to just hop on plane and become easy to handle while the sailors in Sea Pearls are wallowing and fighting for control if they have not reefed. So, choose an apple or an orange but don't try to compare them.
    There is a lot of good information in the above but I would point out that the opinion expressed by "our New Zealand friend" is based on having sailed his AWOL alongside a CS17 in very heavy weather, he is probably the only one on the planet other than the skipper of that CS17 who does have that experience. I know that there was a JW Pathfinder there that day as well, and it was not having any problems in handling the conditions either.
    It may well be that there was a difference in the experience and skills of the skippers, or the amateur build standards of the three boats involved but the story I heard was pretty clear as to which boats were coping and which was not.

    Cedric

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