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Thread: Lugsail halyard lead

  1. #1
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    Default Lugsail halyard lead

    I've been having some chafe issues with the halyard on Ran Tan, my Dias Harrier. Lead right now is conventional with the halyard coming down the forward side of the mast, and the yard hook tied on at the after side. A pure fore and aft arrangement. Problem is that when the yard is all the way around the mast on the forward side there is a wicked twist in the halyard. I have been thinking about splitting the difference setting up the mast with the sheave running at about 45 degrees to the centerline. Yard of course would be hooked on the favored side. Mast is round with no hardware so it is a pretty easy change. Has anyone experimented with this?

    Of course what I really want is a instant releasing masthead halyard hook; the designs I have seen and used in dinghy racing land don't release as easy as I'd like.

    Ideas?
    Ben Fuller
    Ran Tan, Liten Kuhling, Tipsy, Tippy, Josef W., Merry Mouth, Imp, Macavity, Look Far, Flash and a quiver of other 'yaks.
    "Bound fast is boatless man."

  2. #2
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    Default Re: Lugsail halyard lead

    Ben, I run my lug halliards athwartships. Not only does this equalize tensions on either tack, but the halliard to the one side balances the strain from the downhaul on the other side quite nicely. Try athwartships, see if you like it..

  3. #3
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    Default Re: Lugsail halyard lead

    My Grandfathers herring punt also had the sheave athwartship.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  4. #4
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    Default Re: Lugsail halyard lead

    I mounted the halyard cleat on my Goat right on the mast in line with the masthead sheave. The lower block of the downhaul is also fixed to the mast and only the fall goes to the deck. The mast is thus somewhat free to rotate, and it seems happiest at the 45 degree angle you mentioned.

  5. #5
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    Default Re: Lugsail halyard lead

    I rigged the Family Skiff with a block on a strop hung on the port side of the mast,same as the yard. The only chafe has been on the yard where it crosses the mast, which is protected from chafe anyway with codline. I dont like to put sheaves through mast sections, as its always a source of rot in my experience.

  6. #6
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    Default Re: Lugsail halyard lead

    My mast has a square heel. I turned it 90 degrees and the sheave now goes athwarthship. So far, seems to work well that way.

    Brian

  7. #7
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    Default Re: Lugsail halyard lead

    Ben

    I've always rigged sunfish with the halyard slot athwartship, and never had problems. Can't see how a lug would be different. Equal twisting around on either tack.

    Allan

  8. #8
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    Default Re: Lugsail halyard lead

    I had originally planned to mount a cheek block to one side of the mast, but decided to mount the sheave through the mast for the same reason James did; balanced compression on the spar. I coated the mortise thoroughly with epoxy to forestall rot, but the boat is dry sailed anyway, so the mast is almost always dry.

  9. #9
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    Default Re: Lugsail halyard lead

    I'm building a Caledonia Yawl, and plan on having the sheave athwartships. That puts the halyard on the side of the mast, where the yard is. My mast will be square at the foot where it goes through the partners, so I won't have the option of a 45 sheave, but will be able to have it fore and aftwards if so desired. Ben, you'll see the results at this summer's SRR.

    Phil Bacon, Scout.

  10. #10
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    Default Re: Lugsail halyard lead

    Mine too is athwartships with a sheave. Made the mortise a smidge too large though and the line sometimes gets jammed. Must work on that this spring.
    Steve Lewis
    Formerly Lewisboats (don't try to change your email address!)

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  11. #11
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    Default Re: Lugsail halyard lead

    Thanks for the information.

    Had Ran Tan out yesterday. Reminded me that I don't have the room to run the halyard and the down haul at 90 degrees to the mast the way the partners are built. My halyard and downhaul run through turning blocks under deck to cleats that I can get to for adjustment without having to go to the mast. In my reengineering of the partners I want to set up things so that the halyard turning block lives on the mast and that can't be done given the partner design. But I think I can do 45 degrees as I can have a mast partner block that lives on the mast and can steal some fairlead room at the 45 degree point. I am think about carbon unidirectional to attach an eye to the mast for the turning block. I may try something simpler to start: some high strength small diameter line with a prussik loop on to which to shackle the turning block and see if it resists creeping up the carbon spar. I am also going to build a trough to guide the mast onto the step. The stick is light enough to make stepping easy but not so much fun in a seaway.
    Ben Fuller
    Ran Tan, Liten Kuhling, Tipsy, Tippy, Josef W., Merry Mouth, Imp, Macavity, Look Far, Flash and a quiver of other 'yaks.
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  12. #12
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    Default Re: Lugsail halyard lead

    Ben, would be interested in what you come up with for mast heel trough. The mast on my Caledonia Yawl is pretty easy to step when things are nice, not so much when they're not.

  13. #13
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    Default Re: Lugsail halyard lead

    thwartship like everybody else

    I don't exactly have a 'trough' to step the mast. But the mast thwart is slotted so to speak, and a three sided box joins mast step and thwart partner. This allows me to get the mast heel in the neighborhood of the step just as I begin to raise the mast from the horizontal. The mast is raised up to the vertical and a gate dropped in place. Similiar idea to oughtred - my retrofitted version for an open structure, traditional build. On my little boat the gate is not usually necessary but is nice to have.

  14. #14
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    Default Re: Lugsail halyard lead

    Last night I revisited Willits Ansel's "Whaleboat" and Lance Lee's "Twice round the Loggerhead" (a stunningly handsome book). The whaleboats had that special hinged ring on the mast partner, notched into the forward edge. The trough formed by the cutout in the foredeck, angled away from bow, allowing heel to slide aft into step. Pretty slick. But, that puts the mast on the centerline eliminating one person rowing. And my mast cutout and gate are on aft edge of partner.
    The three sided box looks like an answer, but I am concerned about building in more "stuff" there where everything gathers. It is already the most confusable area in the boat.
    In practice, Eric, do you use the length of the box or stab at the bottom and find the step? I am wondering about something that could be placed over the keel and step that might be removable, perhaps a three sided box? Or a modified wooden salad bowl! I'm thinking that Ben is thinking about a trough angled forward with a backstop. Maybe I can lay such a box over keel and step and still toss it out for cleaning bilge, etc.

  15. #15
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    Default Re: Lugsail halyard lead

    This is what Peter is referring to:





    Last edited by Songololo; 01-08-2013 at 09:22 AM.
    "Smooth seas do not make skillful sailors". African Proverb

  16. #16
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    Default Re: Lugsail halyard lead

    You've got it. As you can see, it's not something to casually retrofit into your boat. And, if you want a hinged mast and are building new there are plenty of tabernacle designs. Not to mention the hardware. But I love their problem solving and you can be sure that it worked!
    To tie this back to the OP, lug sail halyard lead... My boat (CY) is "livery style," Geoff Kerr built, open boat. It is simple and straightforward and I'd like to keep it so. But I recognize the need for some complications for safe and easier solo sailing and am planning on having halyard and down haul lead aft. Will all of that stuff interfer with the goal of better mast raising and lowering?

  17. #17
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    Default Re: Lugsail halyard lead

    I don't entirely understand the trough idea. I thought you were referring to an oughtred style ramp, which I also don't have.

    Bandwagon


    The bronze backstop slots into place and is retained by the shock cord - that basic idea comes from Oughtred and Rowan. It is difficult to see in this picture but the aft corners of the thwart slot and purpleheart cleats are well rounded which gives me a little more leeway in angling the mast in towards the step at the beginning of the raise. On my size boat it is a little awkward any way you look at it - I most often pull the mast straight out and drop straight in. But someday in difficult conditions I'll want that gate. When down the rig is stowed off to port and starboard and does not interfere with rowing. If raising on angle I'll aim the mast heel at the mast step or lower part of box and the heel will drop fully into place when she goes upright. The three sided box in no way interferes with maintainence and it also does the very important job of keeping the step clear of gear in the forepeak. Leading anything aft tends to complicate matters. I have used cleats on the mast itself to lead aft, or extended lines in an easily releasable fashion. In my situation I do not want to permanently capture any lines away the mast itself.

  18. #18
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    Default Re: Lugsail halyard lead

    A picture is worth a thousand words! Definitely worthy of consideration. I like the idea of keeping the fenders and PDFs out of the way. Can't say as I'm aware of Oughtred ramp but suppose it's the trough I'm imagining.
    Will leave halyard attached to mast and put snap shackle on down haul.
    What are the torpedo tubes in bow?

  19. #19
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    Default Re: Lugsail halyard lead

    Quote Originally Posted by Peter Gottlund View Post
    A picture is worth a thousand words! Definitely worthy of consideration. I like the idea of keeping the fenders and PDFs out of the way. Can't say as I'm aware of Oughtred ramp but suppose it's the trough I'm imagining.
    Will leave halyard attached to mast and put snap shackle on down haul.
    What are the torpedo tubes in bow?
    Tubes for running spare set of oars forward-seldom used. You should also check out the ramp on some off the oughtread designs. After thinking about the trough pictured above for a few minutes I see how that might work. But it takes up too much real estate.

  20. #20
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    Default Re: Lugsail halyard lead

    Quote Originally Posted by Peter Gottlund View Post
    But I recognize the need for some complications for safe and easier solo sailing and am planning on having halyard and down haul lead aft. Will all of that stuff interfer with the goal of better mast raising and lowering?
    Yes, it will totally add unnecessary complication and extra time to your mast raising and lowering to have to fiddle with both halliard and downhaul led aft. You should belay your halliard to a cleat on the mast itself so that you can use the same cleat to belay your halliard to when you stow your mast--leaving the line led through the sheave and held snug and tangle free, ready for action at a moment's notice. Furthermore, you want your weight forward, right at the base of the mast when raising or lowering because that will encourage your boat to weathercock and stay head-to-wind while you're doing this stuff even more efficiently. A halliard led aft through a turning block does nothing whatsoever for you but add extra rope to stretch and tangle and trip over and get in the way of your crew and movement about the boat and an extra complication to set up and stow each and every time you set or strike your rig.

    If you want to add a tail to your downhaul led aft so that you can tweak sail tension on the fly, that's maybe a worthwhile complication if you're an aggressive sailor. But the halliard? That's counterproductive at best.

  21. #21
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    Default Re: Lugsail halyard lead

    Quote Originally Posted by James McMullen View Post
    Yes, it will totally add unnecessary complication and extra time to your mast raising and lowering to have to fiddle with both halliard and downhaul led aft. You should belay your halliard to a cleat on the mast itself so that you can use the same cleat to belay your halliard to when you stow your mast--leaving the line led through the sheave and held snug and tangle free, ready for action at a moment's notice. Furthermore, you want your weight forward, right at the base of the mast when raising or lowering because that will encourage your boat to weathercock and stay head-to-wind while you're doing this stuff even more efficiently. A halliard led aft through a turning block does nothing whatsoever for you but add extra rope to stretch and tangle and trip over and get in the way of your crew and movement about the boat and an extra complication to set up and stow each and every time you set or strike your rig.

    If you want to add a tail to your downhaul led aft so that you can tweak sail tension on the fly, that's maybe a worthwhile complication if you're an aggressive sailor. But the halliard? That's counterproductive at best.
    Having lived with the halyard and down hall led aft for two fairly active seasons now, I think you're overstating this just a bit there James. If you pull the halyard out of the turning blocks when you pull the mast then you are right about the extra set up time, but there is no need for that. Once the lines are set up they can stay that way through repeated raisings and lowerings of the mast. The only time to undo the line is if you're removing the mast from the boat all together. Also, the the yawl set up, the boat points to the wind just fine without having to stand to the mast. As far as the halyard and down hall being in the way, it's turned out to be a non-issue. Horses for courses I guess.



    Jim
    -Jim

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    1934 27' Blanchard Cuiser ~ Amazon, Ex. Emalu
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  22. #22
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    Default Re: Lugsail halyard lead

    The McMullen facade continues to crumble.
    Quote Originally Posted by James McMullen View Post
    Yeadon is right, of course.

  23. #23
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    Default Re: Lugsail halyard lead

    Yeadon is right, of course. But Jim, what do you do with your halliard when you're putting our mast up and down? Surely you don't just let it flail? How do you secure it so that it's ready for instant service? Or do you not strike your masts to row? And what about the stretch from all the extra line? The extra resistance from all those turning blocks? The poor leverage for swaying the halliard tight? I'm honestly curious, because I would find all of these inefficiencies absolutely intolerable, including the three-strand stretchy line you use for your halliard. But of course, to each cat his own rat, and you're making it work for you, so that's great.

  24. #24
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    Default Re: Lugsail halyard lead

    I'll readily admit it's been an evolving process. The three strand in that picture was nylon and quite stretchy, it got replaced with low stretch polyester. It's still three strand but much nicer. There's just enough halyard that I can pull the mast while the bitter end still has one turn on the jam cleat on the side of the center board case, with the parrell bead loop hooked under the cleat on the mast. When the mast gets dropped back in, it's a simple task to hook the halyard to the main sail uncleat the halyard and hoist away. I do find that if I'm rowing short distances or it's absolutely flat clam I won't bother pulling the mast at all. I also don't trailer my boat but keep it at the dock so it's generally already set up. I don't find that swaying up the halyard is a that difficult, but it was a real pain when there was only a dumb sheave at the mast head. Since I put a real sheave in the mast head it's been great.

    I've found that raising the sail really isn't that big a deal and striking sail from the back is great. No drama and no tripping over thwarts or crew.
    -Jim

    Sucker for a pretty face.
    1934 27' Blanchard Cuiser ~ Amazon, Ex. Emalu
    19'6" Caledonia Yawl ~ Sparrow

    Getting into trouble one board at a time.

  25. #25
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    Default Re: Lugsail halyard lead

    Well Jim, I think the fact that you don't trailer and usually just keep her set up answers a lot. Cheers to you, and may you have many more pleasant days of sailing.

    One more: halliard athwartships or fore 'n aft?

  26. #26
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    Default Re: Lugsail halyard lead

    Thanks James and same to you.

    It's athwartships for me, I've seen it the other way on a dory here in town but it didn't appeal to me.

    Jim
    -Jim

    Sucker for a pretty face.
    1934 27' Blanchard Cuiser ~ Amazon, Ex. Emalu
    19'6" Caledonia Yawl ~ Sparrow

    Getting into trouble one board at a time.

  27. #27
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    Default Re: Lugsail halyard lead

    With a carbon tube mast I don't have cleats on it. What I will have when I have done rengineering is a block on a strop at the height of my cleat which is a cam cleat under the forward thwart with very low stretch halyard line. The halyard is dumped into a bag spinnaker halyard style and runs out fast when you blow the cleat. I had not thought about having enough extra to leave it in place so it does not have to be re rereeved when the mast was down and may try that.

    The three sided box is what I will be building as a trough. For my ducker where the mast goes through the foredeck I built a box; the old sailing canoes used tubes. The most interesting trough I have seen is on a Kingston Lobster Boat with a pretty heavy mast that was deck stepped. There it ran from the step up to the stem and was wider at the top than at the bottom making it easy to find. Side pieces kept things in line.
    I second the need to keep bow gear out of the way of the mast; in my case it is a bow floatation bag.
    Ben Fuller
    Ran Tan, Liten Kuhling, Tipsy, Tippy, Josef W., Merry Mouth, Imp, Macavity, Look Far, Flash and a quiver of other 'yaks.
    "Bound fast is boatless man."

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