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Thread: 16' Barto melonseed skiff build

  1. #1
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    Default 16' Barto melonseed skiff build

    Greetings,

    My name is Tim and I'm building my first boat, a 16' strip planked Barto melonseed skiff. I've frequented this forum for some time now and I've learned quite a bit doing so. While planning this project I was grateful to find so much information readily available in various blogs and forums. Now that Iím into the build process I thought it would be good to share my experience too. To that end Iíve created a build blog at:

    http://melonseedbuild.blogspot.com

    While this is my first boat, Iím not new to woodworking. I was a professional cabinetmaker and luthier for almost 20 years; however, boats and sailing are entirely new to me. I hope to have the boat in the water by the end of the summer.

    Best,
    Tim

  2. #2
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    Default Re: 16' Barto melonseed skiff build

    Thanks Doug,

    I tried to post a couple pics here, but the insert image dialog said I had exceeded my quota. I'm guessing it's a size issue, but the pics were well under 50k???

    Tim

  3. #3
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    Default Re: 16' Barto melonseed skiff build

    Nice lookin' boat!



    Here's how to post photos on this forum:

    FIRST - Don't attach photos. Only a tiny version will display.

    SECOND - Post the photos on the web. Use your own website or a free image hosting service like www.flickr.com, picasaweb.google.com, picturetrail, photobucket, etc.

    THIRD - Once posted on the web, right-click the photo to "Copy Image Location", or drag the photo to another browser window, then copy the image URL (web address) which will end in ".jpg". You can test by pasting the photo URL into the location field (http://* ) of a web browser and see if the photo displays. Remember that this process will not work for photos only located on your computer, or uploaded to members-only Yahoo groups.

    (In Flickr - You usually have to first click the photo to bring up the black-framed viewer, then click the "View All Sizes" link near the top right. Then you can get the image URL by right-clicking the image. Alternately you can go to the Actions menu on the upper left, then select "View All Sizes".

    FOURTH - DO THIS EVERY TIME TO POST IMAGES IN THREADS:
    A. In any "Reply" window you can click the "insert image" icon --> a little yellow square icon with a dot at each corner, a tiny tree in the center.

    Depending on browser version and Reply/Edit status, this may bring up a simple window with a field to paste the URL into, or the "Add an Image" window described below.

    B. If the window titled "Add an Image" comes up, click the "From URL" tab, paste the URL of the photo in the field, deselect the box for "Retrieve remote file and reference locally", then click the "INSERT IMAGE" button. The Forum software will resize some large images, so look at your post to see the actual displayed images.

    YouTube video on how to select the image URL in Firefox, navigate the "Add an Image" tabs and paste the image URL -
    "http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AkfB_eDmBRw&feature=player_embedded"
    "The enemies of reason have a certain blind look."
    Doctor Jacquin to Lieutenant D'Hubert, in Ridley Scott's first major film _The Duellists_.

  4. #4
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    Default Re: 16' Barto melonseed skiff build

    I love Melonseeds. If they were suitable for conditions here, I would have considered building one. I will follow your thread with interest.
    Gerard>
    ​Freeland, WA

    Resistance is NOT futile.

  5. #5
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    Default Re: 16' Barto melonseed skiff build

    I recently finished building a 16 foot Cortez Melonseeed and look forward to your progress. They are great boats, and "FAST" .

  6. #6
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    Default Re: 16' Barto melonseed skiff build

    Thanks for the 'How To' on posting images. I'm going to give it a try. Hull fairing in process...




    Thanks again Thorne!

  7. #7
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    Default Re: 16' Barto melonseed skiff build

    Hi,Tim!
    Nice look!
    What dimesions of planks did you use?

    Alexander.

  8. #8
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    Default Re: 16' Barto melonseed skiff build

    The strips used for the bottom are 13/16" x 3/8". From the chine to the shear the strips are 13/16" x 1/4". Many pieces have two scarfs as the mahogany came in 7' and 8' lengths. The longest strips required are about 16 1/2'. TC

  9. #9
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    Default Re: 16' Barto melonseed skiff build

    I've been thinking a lot about the centerboard pivot. Barto leaves the details to the builder, so I've been looking around for a good solution. The design should be relatively simple and inexpensive to implement. My solution, at the moment, is a takeoff of a John Welsford design I found online. I was able to purchase all the parts at Amazon for about $50. I’ll need to do a small amount of machining on the bronze bearings, adding NPT thread. I plan to use bedding compound at the flanges and silicon O-rings where applicable. Before I entirely commit to this plan I thought I’d through it out for dissection, inspection, comment, etc… TC


  10. #10
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    Default Re: 16' Barto melonseed skiff build

    Quote Originally Posted by trcrawfish View Post
    I've been thinking a lot about the centerboard pivot. Barto leaves the details to the builder, so I've been looking around for a good solution. The design should be relatively simple and inexpensive to implement. My solution, at the moment, is a takeoff of a John Welsford design I found online. I was able to purchase all the parts at Amazon for about $50. I’ll need to do a small amount of machining on the bronze bearings, adding NPT thread. I plan to use bedding compound at the flanges and silicon O-rings where applicable. Before I entirely commit to this plan I thought I’d through it out for dissection, inspection, comment, etc… TC

    I like the way Ross Lillistone drew his for the Phoenix III instead. He uses a floating pin through the centerboard, a 1/2" pin long enough so basically the pin will be flush with the exterior.

    Drill the holes through the board and case sides oversize, fill them with epoxy, then drill them to fit the pin--the epoxy will make a nice tough bushing with little room for slop. Then a simple cap bedded and screwed or epoxied in place over each side keeps the pin in place, with no threaded rods or tightening--over-tightening tends to press the case sides in and cause links.

    Post #17 explains this all better, I think; I edited mine to match what it says a little more closely. Johnno built a Lillistone boat--I've only watched one being built, and sailed it.

    Tom
    Last edited by WI-Tom; 01-08-2013 at 07:49 AM.
    You don't have to be prepared as long as you're willing to suffer the consequences.

    www.tompamperin.com

  11. #11
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    Default Re: 16' Barto melonseed skiff build

    I used a pair of bronze drain plugs with an oversized flange and a brass nipple, cut so that it just touches the inside of the plug when each are hand tight.

    I get no drips, but I did forget to tighten them at first launch and got a whale spout, to everyone's hilarity.


  12. #12
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    Default Re: 16' Barto melonseed skiff build

    I guess my overly simple drawing doesn’t properly show what I intended. As Tom mentioned, a bolt through the trunk will eventually distort the case and cause leaks. This is exactly what I wanted to avoid; the pin in the drawing is not threaded and can be quickly removed for maintenance. The end caps are attached/threaded to the flanged bearings, to secure the bearings and seal the rod shaft. This approach allows parts to be replaced easily. To remove the centerboard you simply remove the end caps and tap the rod out. The flanged bearings in the trunk and the bearing in the centerboard can also be replaced easily. I think it might be problematic in the long run to use epoxy as a bearing surface for the rod itself.

    The other big issue is keeping water from penetrating the wood core. I like to idea of using epoxy as Tom suggested. Drill the holes in the trunk and centerboard oversize, fill with epoxy, drill to size. More work but probably well worth it.

    TC

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    Default Re: 16' Barto melonseed skiff build

    Quote Originally Posted by trcrawfish View Post
    the pin in the drawing is not threaded and can be quickly removed for maintenance. The end caps are attached/threaded to the flanged bearings, to secure the bearings and seal the rod shaft. This approach allows parts to be replaced easily.
    Ah--I should have looked closer. You're doing basically the same thing I've done, then, but adding a metal bearing for the inner pin. Which is clearly shown on the drawing...

    Tom
    You don't have to be prepared as long as you're willing to suffer the consequences.

    www.tompamperin.com

  14. #14
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    Default Re: 16' Barto melonseed skiff build

    Tim,

    Your project is fantastic. I have recently become a big fan of the melon seeds after reading through the "Sailing in Assateague" thread. I look forward to your next update.

  15. #15
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    Default Re: 16' Barto melonseed skiff build

    Quote Originally Posted by WI-Tom View Post
    I like the way Ross Lillistone drew his for the Phoenix III instead. He uses a floating pin through the centerboard, a 1/2" pin long enough to extend about 1/2" past the exterior of the centerboard case on each side. But first he puts a 1/2" thick doubler (maybe a 3" x 3" patch of 1/2" plywood?) on the case sides where the hole will be, so basically the pin will be flush with the exterior of the doubler.

    Drill the holes through the board and case sides oversize, fill them with epoxy, then drill them to fit the pin--the epoxy will make a nice tough bushing with little room for slop. Then a simple cap bedded and screwed or epoxied in place over each side keeps the pin in place, with no threaded rods or tightening--over-tightening tends to press the case sides in and cause links.

    Tom
    Looks like a lot of engineering.I just use a bolt with a plastic bush and a couple of rubber washers.

  16. #16
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    Default Re: 16' Barto melonseed skiff build

    John’s drawing brings a few questions to mind. (1) What prevents water from wicking into the trunk walls? (2) Is the bearing surface the outside of the plastic bushing? (3) How much clearance between centerboard and trunk walls?

    Here is someone else’s approach I found while scouting around.


  17. #17
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    Default Re: 16' Barto melonseed skiff build

    Tim, if you're interested, this is my detail, following Ross Lillistone's instructions, roughly...

    Basically, oversized hole through centreboard case, epoxy spacer to create diameter slightly larger than bronze pin, bronze pin, epoxy spacer in walls of centreboard case, likewise oversized, sealant (non-hardening, like sikaflex) hardwood cap. The details are on the following pages of my build.

    It's a simple solution, doesn't leak, doesn't have many parts. The oversizing is useful to take out initial shock of a bump. My board has neutral buoyancy, so no wear on pin and epoxy spacer really. The whole assembly is easy to remove if necessary.

    Looking at your drawing, I'd suggest a bit larger washer before the pipe cap, just to give plenty of area for sealant.

    cheers
    John


    http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...-sailer/page10


    http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...-sailer/page17


    http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...-sailer/page24
    Flat bottomed boats, you make the rockin' world go round.............

  18. #18
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    Default Re: 16' Barto melonseed skiff build

    Thanks John! I enjoyed checking out your build pages. Nice looking boat! Your solution looks good to me and addresses all my basic concerns. I’m a big fan of simple… I’m also planning to build a hollow birdsmouth mast; so it was neat to see your setup. TC

  19. #19
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    Default Re: 16' Barto melonseed skiff build

    Quote Originally Posted by trcrawfish View Post
    John’s drawing brings a few questions to mind. (1) What prevents water from wicking into the trunk walls? (2) Is the bearing surface the outside of the plastic bushing? (3) How much clearance between centerboard and trunk walls?

    Here is someone else’s approach I found while scouting around.


    To answer the questions in order:a couple of coats of varnish-yes-1 to 2 millimetres.

    The sketch of an alternative system is not one I would use,it seems to be dependent on the metal inserts in the board for a bearing surface and for this to be the case evrything must be exactly positioned.Fitting the pin may be a challenge in the real world......
    Its a lot easier to have a slightly oversize hole and to take the loads into the boat via the top and bottom edges of the case.In the case of the sketch,the leverage is considerable and extending the board upwards would help.

  20. #20
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    Default Re: 16' Barto melonseed skiff build

    Tim, I've missed a lot of posting. I've been away from the Forum for a bit: Sandy, work, running...but no real excuse. You're making great progress and have passed my effort on the Barto 16. I'm just addressing the CB now. For my last build, a 19' sharpie, I kept it simple using a SS bolt in a PVC bushing sealed with simple plywood caps. It's worked fine so far. I look forward to seeing what you come up. If we get some warmer temps here I might actually be able to get something done on mine and can use the guidance.
    Steve B
    Sjogin IIIa
    PAYTON 13' Pea Pod

    RIVUS 16' Melonseed


    "If a man must be obsessed by something, I suppose a boat is as good as anything, perhaps a bit better than most." E. B. White

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    Default Re: 16' Barto melonseed skiff build

    I'm not sure why you are making the centerboard pivot so complex. On my 16 footer I use a bronze bushing in the 3/4" centerboard. I use bronze flanged bushings in the case sides with the flange on the outside. Currently I use a 3/8" pivot bolt - true there would be more bearing with a 1/2" bolt. The pivot bolt is hex head with a nut on the other end. O rings seal the bolt head and nut against the case sides. I have about 1/8" clearance inside the case. It looks like Welsford's more complex arrangement would keep the board centered and prevent it from binding against the interior case sides, which is good. I admit that will sometimes happen with my very simple arrangment, although I've not found it to be a significant hindrence. Leeward pressure might set the board in a particular position against the case on a hard tack, that pressure disappears when the boat tacks or runs off. Ideally I suppose it would be better for the board to remain unbound in all cases. I am thinking of simply adding some large plastic laminate (formica) 'washers' to the centerboard P and S. Several inches in diameter. These would keep the board a little better centered in the case, and with any lateral movement would offer a smaller and more slippery surface to sidle up against the case sides. Just an idea. The bronze bushings are available at many hardware stores. I am referring to a gravity drop board with a few pounds of lead and a simple lanyard.

    Pretty boat you've got.

  22. #22
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    Default Re: 16' Barto melonseed skiff build

    Thanks to all for your input! I admit my plan might be unnecessarily complex and possibly a waste of effort. My wife tells me this all the time… I’ve never owned a boat of any kind, much less a boat with a centerboard, and I have no personal experience to draw from. Therefore, my concerns are theoretical and quite possibly full of bull. This being said, I think any solution that is reliable and easily repairable is a good one, the simpler the better.

    To me, the usual centerboard pivot arrangement looks like a leak waiting to happen. I’ve tried to steer clear of a discussion on centerboard clearance, but clearance must be considered. It seems intuitive that lateral pressures placed on the centerboard are handled by the pin and the upper portion of the board pressing on the trunk. It would follow that a design with minimal centerboard clearance puts less pressure on the pin. When I first looked at Barto’s drawings I scratched my head to see the centerboard was listed at ĺ” and the trunk opening at 1 Ĺ”. I thought this must be a mistake, so I emailed Barto to confirm. Marc, a man of few words, responded; “Don’t make it too tight. It is surprising…” I read numerous forum discussions on this topic and there seems to be no real consensus. Some like it loose, some tight. My guess is loose works better for those who only use weight to keep the board down. For better or worse, I’m following Barto’s advice, leaving 3/8” clearance on each side of the centerboard. Because of this, I reasoned it would not hurt to beef up the pin, so I added bronze bearings to the mix. The center bearing is attached to the centerboard, preventing lateral movement at the pin. Additionally, all the parts can be replaced easily, something I consider an absolute requirement for any good solution. I hope this explains some of the twisted logic behind the complexity.

    My parts arrived yesterday and I’m planning go forth with my folly just for the fun of it. Thanks again for all the advice.

    TC

  23. #23
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    Default Re: 16' Barto melonseed skiff build

    I am working on restoring a Haven 12 1/2. Before I got her, she was allowed to fill with water and soak. MY first sail, the board stayed in the trunk. When I hoisted her, afterward, the board dripped steadily for weeks. I had a terrible time persuading the centerboard to come out. It turned out that the board had been lifted by a ringbolt that screwed deep into the head of the board, and that had caused swelling. Installing my new liftpennant, I will drill, and fill with epoxy, a transverse hole and then a hole down from the top of the board to intersect. I will then redrill with smaller bits. The pennant goes in the vertical hole and is knotted in the transverse hole. It definitely was a case of the clearance between board and trunk being too small.

  24. #24
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    Default Re: 16' Barto melonseed skiff build

    Tc
    you're right - you are on the way to what you are on the way to. The clearance seems wildly generous but I guess with so much room you now really want to stabilize the board. My clearance is between 1/8 and 1/4 inch total. An o ring of the proper diameter under pivot bolt head and nut needs no more than finger tight pressure to seal - honest. This is also why I put the flange of the case bushings to the outside - for bearing against the o rings. My pennant is held by a stopper knot set in the board. Well sealed marine plywood.

    There may be something about your arrangement that I do not properly appreciate. Good luck.

  25. #25
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    Default Re: 16' Barto melonseed skiff build

    >>I emailed Barto to confirm. Marc, a man of few words<<

    I got the same when I asked Marc about wood selection and alternatives. He said just get a pile of it and have fun! BTW, I'm going with 1 1/4" CB opening. We will see how that goes. Also I asked him about his rig which appeared to be conservative. He said he drew it that way not knowing where the boats would be built or sailed, and would not discourage a larger sail area. So I'm still planning on going with the Brady rig (120sf)
    Steve B
    Sjogin IIIa
    PAYTON 13' Pea Pod

    RIVUS 16' Melonseed


    "If a man must be obsessed by something, I suppose a boat is as good as anything, perhaps a bit better than most." E. B. White

  26. #26
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    Default Re: 16' Barto melonseed skiff build

    Mike W - Have you posted any photos of the Haven restoration project? I would enjoy seeing what you’re up to. The Herreshoff 12.5 is one of my favorite designs. The Haven seems more practical, but just as pretty. TC

  27. #27
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    Default Re: 16' Barto melonseed skiff build

    For whatever it's worth..... My cb pin is 3/4 bronze rod. The washers/spacers inside are attached to the board w/copper tacks. The pin just slides through and is covered with a wooden plate. However, I have 2 holes in the trunk as well as the board. This is very handy when re-installing the board because you can see what you're doing. You can wiggle the board with a screwdriver in one hole and push the pin through when it lines up. This keeps the pin from knocking the spacer loose as it exits the hole. It's super simple. All the parts were made out of an old piece of bronze shaft, the pin turned down, and the spacers just cut to width and punched. My pivot hole is a few inches above the WL.

    Your hull looks really nice.

  28. #28
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    Default Re: 16' Barto melonseed skiff build

    trcrawfish,
    There is a short article with a few shots of JACKAROO on our website, www.traditionalsmallcraft.com in the "Articles" section. I've built lighter boats in the past, and I find that it is work to lift and maneuver her to get the board out. I built a gallows with straps, and that did the job.

  29. #29
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    Default Re: 16' Barto melonseed skiff build

    Tim, You seem to be just at the fruitbowl stage in your build. I was at this point in January 2010 when an excellent article by Paul Butler came out in Small Craft Advisor about building light. I found it very helpful for building inwales, outwales, deckbeams, carlings, coamings, partners, bulkheads, maststeps, hanging knees. It is reprinted in Duckworks, but I can Xerox a copy and send it to you.

  30. #30
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    Default Re: 16' Barto melonseed skiff build

    Steve B., I'm an old friend of Tim's and we've been talking about this project for quite a while now. I was a bit surprised to learn, several months ago that the Barto plans called for a stayed rig on the 16' boat. I had been thinking about building a 16' melonseed myself (perhaps even using Tim's molds when he finishes), but for me the stayed mast is not ideal for my intended use. Can you tell us more about how you go about adapting the unstayed larger rig to the Barto hull? What calculations and modifications are required?

  31. #31
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    Default Re: 16' Barto melonseed skiff build

    I don't want to hijack Tim's thread, but I did talk to Marc Barto and he didn't have any issues building w/o stays. I also bought plans for the 16' from John Brady, the design Mike Wick has been sailing for years w/o stays and a 120 vs 90 sf rig. So I'm planning on building the Brady rig which has heftier scantlings and I might add some carbon fiber for insurance. There is 6" difference in CE between the rigs and I thought I could compensate by moving the CB, but now that I'm in the build it doesn't look like that I can. So that might come up and bite me.
    Steve B
    Sjogin IIIa
    PAYTON 13' Pea Pod

    RIVUS 16' Melonseed


    "If a man must be obsessed by something, I suppose a boat is as good as anything, perhaps a bit better than most." E. B. White

  32. #32
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    Default Re: 16' Barto melonseed skiff build

    Thanks. I suspect that Tim is just as interested as I am in the possible rig configurations on that boat, although he has committed to the Barto plan specs, so don't worry about hijacking the thread. Right Tim?

    Please keep us posted on how it all goes together.

    Bob

  33. #33
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    Default Re: 16' Barto melonseed skiff build

    Building to plan specs, what a great concept! :-) I'm hoping that I'm not outsmarting myself, but figure I can always reef if overpowered, or rebuild if really necessary. We will see. I look forward to seeing more of Tim's progress, here and on his blog.
    Steve B
    Sjogin IIIa
    PAYTON 13' Pea Pod

    RIVUS 16' Melonseed


    "If a man must be obsessed by something, I suppose a boat is as good as anything, perhaps a bit better than most." E. B. White

  34. #34
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    Default Re: 16' Barto melonseed skiff build

    Tim & Jack,

    After five years sailing PEPITA (Brady) and one full season in MOGGIE (Allen) I am sure that shrouds aren't necessary. but you might want to make your partners extra strong. In MOGGIE, just in case, I put a 4mm occume bulkhead just forward of the maststep and used some kevlar in the skin between the mast and the centerboard trunk. No problems.

  35. #35
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    Default Re: 16' Barto melonseed skiff build

    Hi Guys. I've been away from the computer for a few days. Mike, I'd love to read the article by Paul Butler. Steve, no worries regarding hijacking... I'm sure your choice to go with more sail is a good one, as Mike and others have already tested the concept. I stayed with the conservative sail plan for a couple reasons; I have very little sailing experience and I’ll be using the boat primarily in the rocky mountain region where light wind is seldom the problem.

    On another note, I have been wondering about the rudder design. Should I stick with the barn door design or go with a more complex retractable design? Any thoughts or opinions?

    TC

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