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Thread: A proposal for regulation from a firearms enthusiast

  1. #1
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    Default A proposal for regulation from a firearms enthusiast

    I recognize a clear need to address firearm related violence, including the illicit use of firearms in crime, domestic violence, political violence (assasinations), mass shootings, as well as suicides, accidents, and unauthorized use , ie by the mentally ill or by children.

    I would like for those advocating stricter firearms regulation to recognize that the majority, by a very large margin, of all firearm owners and users, do so in a responsible and safe manner and in no way find gun violence to be acceptable or moral. As such, any new firearm restrictions should not be looked upon as being punitive towards current legal firearms owners, but rather as necessary to improve the safety of our society as a whole.

    Having said that I propose the following tiered regulation system:

    Use the current federal background check system for all commercial and private sales of tier one firearms. Reinstate a waiting period of seven days for all such firearms purchases. Applicants for purchase of firearm should demonstrate passage of a firearm safety course (similar to most state's hunter safety course). All guns must be stored in certified locked gun vault or be fitted with a trigger lock which if removed illegally will render the gun unusable. Certificate of liability insurance, similar to auto liability insurance, must be current for all owners of tier one firearms.

    Tier One firearms will include:

    • rimfire hand and long guns of any action type excepting full auto with a maximum capacity of ten rounds, plus one additional round in the chamber
    • all action type of shotguns, excepting full auto with a maximum magazine capacity of five rounds, plus one additional round in the chamber
    • all action type of centerfire rifles excepting full auto with a maximum capacity of five rounds, plus one additional round in the chamber
    • single and double action revolver type centerfire handguns with a maximum capacity of six rounds in the cylinder, and a barrel length of more than 5˝"
    • certain special purpose handguns, either bolt or single shot, will be considered centerfire rifles for the purpose of regulation (by way of example, i am thinking of the remington xp100 and thompson contender types)
    • All semi-automatic handguns will be banned for sale as tier one guns.



    Existing owners of tier one guns will have one year to comply with the Federal background check at no cost to themselves. If a current tier one gun owner wishes to surrender his weapon rather than comply, they may transfer the ownership of such a gun to any FFL dealer (I'm assuming a sale here) or the Federal government will buy back the weapon at fair market value as dtermined six months before this proposal becomes law.

    All other weapons will be considered Tier 2 for licensing purposes. Ownership of Tier 2 weapons will fall under the current guidelines for Class III firearms, which include an extensive federal background check, approval of the head of local law enforcement agency, random audits of the safe storage of such firearms. Again for current owners of Tier 2 firearms, there will be no cost for application for permit in the first year after adoption of this law. Recognizing that some local law enforcement agencies currently do not approve any applications for Class III firearms, a special federal level appeals process will be put in place for any denials by local law enforcement. Other than the background check processing fee, there should be no exceptional cost to own more than one Tier 2 type firearm.

    Of course the regulations for safe storage and firearms training for Tier 1 firearms also applies to Tier 2 firearms.

    This above proposal will not pre-empt any state or local laws or regulations for concealed or open carry or transport of guns in those jurisdictions.
    Simpler is better, except when complicated looks really cool.

  2. #2

    Default Re: A proposal for regulation from a firearms enthusiast

    Take away all permits to carry concealed weapons except for peace officers, and require transportation permits for taking handguns to the range.

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    Default Re: A proposal for regulation from a firearms enthusiast

    Remove all hand guns from private ownership with the possible exception of bonafide anitques for which NO ammunition will be permitted.

  4. #4

    Default Re: A proposal for regulation from a firearms enthusiast

    Now we're getting somewhere.

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    Default Re: A proposal for regulation from a firearms enthusiast

    Quote Originally Posted by Peter Malcolm Jardine View Post
    Take away all permits to carry concealed weapons except for peace officers, and require transportation permits for taking handguns to the range.
    take em from cops too
    The doctrine of nonresistance against arbitrary power, and oppression, is absurd, slavish, and destructive of the good and happiness of mankind.
    Personal failures are too important to be trusted to others.

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    Default Re: A proposal for regulation from a firearms enthusiast

    You guys do understand that the current class iii firearms permitting process is in depth and extensive and includes room for comment by neighbors and other associates. Its not a rubber stamp process.
    Simpler is better, except when complicated looks really cool.

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    Default Re: A proposal for regulation from a firearms enthusiast

    Peter, tomorrow morning, I might like to go to the range... I like to get there when it opens at 0800... can I get a permit in time?... can I get a permit on a weekend or holliday?
    The doctrine of nonresistance against arbitrary power, and oppression, is absurd, slavish, and destructive of the good and happiness of mankind.
    Personal failures are too important to be trusted to others.

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    Default Re: A proposal for regulation from a firearms enthusiast

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Pless View Post
    You guys do understand that the current class iii firearms permitting process is in depth and extensive and includes room for comment by neighbors and other associates. Its not a rubber stamp process.
    taking property away from citizens is OFTEN a rubber stamp process
    The doctrine of nonresistance against arbitrary power, and oppression, is absurd, slavish, and destructive of the good and happiness of mankind.
    Personal failures are too important to be trusted to others.

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    Default Re: A proposal for regulation from a firearms enthusiast

    they'll have to pry my bb gun from my cold dead hands

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    Default Re: A proposal for regulation from a firearms enthusiast

    Don't agree at all with Todd D's wish to confiscate all handguns except for antiques having no ammunition. Lots of legal handguns are intended for home defense, and the guns in the hands of scumbags and douche-wads won't be going away soon.

    Additionally, target shooting with pistols of decent barrel length is a viable sport.

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    Default Re: A proposal for regulation from a firearms enthusiast

    Mr Pless,

    Another very good post on the subject. Requiring locked storage of all firearms not under the direct control of the licensed owner is something I've long considered a sensible and attainable remedy for some of the random gun violence. I would go a bit further and and suggest that all semi-auto firearms be reclassified as Class III, including rimfire, shotguns, and centerfire rifles of any calibre, as well as all semi-auto handguns.

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    Default Re: A proposal for regulation from a firearms enthusiast

    Quote Originally Posted by Nicholas Scheuer View Post
    Don't agree at all with Todd D's wish to confiscate all handguns except for antiques having no ammunition. Lots of legal handguns are intended for home defense, and the guns in the hands of scumbags and douche-wads won't be going away soon.

    Additionally, target shooting with pistols of decent barrel length is a viable sport.
    The guns used to kill Mrs. Lanza were bought by her for her home defense. She and 27 other people were shot and killed by a person who had (tacit) permission to use, and had uninhibited (apparently) access to those guns.

  13. #13

    Default Re: A proposal for regulation from a firearms enthusiast

    Quote Originally Posted by Phillip Allen View Post
    take em from cops too
    Works for the Brits

  14. #14

    Default Re: A proposal for regulation from a firearms enthusiast

    Quote Originally Posted by Phillip Allen View Post
    taking property away from citizens is OFTEN a rubber stamp process

    Yeah, I live in a police state. Oh brother.

  15. #15
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    Default Re: A proposal for regulation from a firearms enthusiast

    Paul's proposal seems workable.
    I doubt that it would ever get passed, this has never been a rational issue (from either side).
    Allan of the Grove
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    Default Re: A proposal for regulation from a firearms enthusiast

    Not bad, Paul. Were it politically viable I'd be most interested.

    The pooh-pooh-ing nattering nabobs of negativism who contend that since the law won't prevent every horror it's pointless don't, we hope, favor decriminalizing bank robbery and such.

    I especially like the idea of insurance and strict liability for any damage caused by the discharge of a firearm for any reason, quite apart from whether some criminal action might flow from the incident.

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    Default Re: A proposal for regulation from a firearms enthusiast

    Probably one of the most interesting gun threads I have seen.
    This may be of interest.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_pol...n_firearm_laws
    Firearms in Australia are grouped into Categories with different levels of control. The categories are:



    • Category B: Centrefire rifles (not semi-automatic), muzzleloading firearms made after 1 January 1901. Apart from a "Genuine Reason", a "Genuine Need" must be demonstrated, including why a Category A firearm would not be suitable.


    • Category C: Semi-automatic rimfire rifles holding 10 or fewer rounds and pump-action or semi-automatic shotguns holding 5 or fewer rounds. Category C firearms are strongly restricted: only primary producers, occupational shooters, collectors and some clay target shooters can own functional Category C firearms.


    • Category D: Semi-automatic centrefire rifles, pump-action or semi-automatic shotguns holding more than 5 rounds. Functional Category D firearms are restricted to government agencies and a few occupational shooters. Collectors may own deactivated Category D firearms.


    • Category H: Handguns including air pistols and deactivated handguns. This class is available to target shooters. To be eligible for a Category H firearm, a target shooter must serve a probationary period of six months using club handguns, and a minimum number of matches yearly to retain each category of handgun.

    Target shooters are limited to handguns of .38 or 9mm calibre or less and magazines may hold a maximum of 10 rounds. Participants in certain "approved" pistol competitions may acquire handguns up to .45", currently Single Action Shooting and Metallic Silhouette. IPSC shooting is approved for 9mm/.38/.357 handguns that meet the IPSC rules, but larger calibers are not approved for IPSC handgun shooting contests. Category H barrels must be at least 100mm (3.94") long for revolvers, and 120mm (4.72") for semi-automatic pistols unless the pistols are clearly ISSF target pistols: magazines are restricted to 10 rounds. Handguns held as part of a collection were exempted from these limits.

    Certain Antique firearms can in some states be legally held without licences. In other states they are subject to the same requirements as modern firearms.
    All single-shot muzzleloading firearms manufactured before 1 January 1901 are considered antique firearms. Four states require licences for antique percussion revolvers and cartridge repeating firearms, but in Queensland and Victoria a person may possess such a firearm without a licence, so long as the firearm is registered (percussion revolvers require a license in Victoria).
    Australia has very tight restrictions on items which are far less controlled in comparable societies such as the UK. Air pistols, elsewhere unrestricted, are as difficult to get as centrefire and rimfire handguns, and low-powered airguns are as difficult as cartridge arms to license. Airsoft guns are banned in all states and non-firing replicas banned in most. Suppressors (or 'silencers') which are legal in the UK and New Zealand, are extremely restricted in Australia to a few government bodies.[3]
    The definition of stupid has got to be the belief that more guns will negate the bloodshed done with guns.

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    Default Re: A proposal for regulation from a firearms enthusiast

    Quote Originally Posted by Ian McColgin View Post
    Not bad, Paul. Were it politically viable I'd be most interested.

    The pooh-pooh-ing nattering nabobs of negativism who contend that since the law won't prevent every horror it's pointless don't, we hope, favor decriminalizing bank robbery and such.

    I especially like the idea of insurance and strict liability for any damage caused by the discharge of a firearm for any reason, quite apart from whether some criminal action

    might flow from the incident.

    Spiro, how does the insurance work in cases such as Connecticut?
    There's a lot of things they didn't tell me when I signed on with this outfit....

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    Default Re: A proposal for regulation from a firearms enthusiast

    Some data to consider when designing remedies:

    http://pol102.tumblr.com/
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    Default Re: A proposal for regulation from a firearms enthusiast

    Quote Originally Posted by George Jung View Post
    Spiro, how does the insurance work in cases such as Connecticut?
    liability insurance should cover the cost associated with the investigation, cleanup, and recovery from a criminal or accidental use of a gun, as well as make a compensatory payment for loss of life or disability created based on standard actuarial calculations. . .
    Simpler is better, except when complicated looks really cool.

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    Default Re: A proposal for regulation from a firearms enthusiast

    So in the case of this nutjob - would his mothers' policy, had she had one, cover such an incident? Looking at the estimable payouts, that's one expensive policy. And of course

    - no one to hold responsible.
    There's a lot of things they didn't tell me when I signed on with this outfit....

  22. #22
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    Default Re: A proposal for regulation from a firearms enthusiast

    Quote Originally Posted by George Jung View Post
    So in the case of this nutjob - would his mothers' policy, had she had one, cover such an incident? Looking at the estimable payouts, that's one expensive policy. And of course

    - no one to hold responsible.
    Under my proposal, yes the guns being owned by the mother would have been required to have a policy paid for by her. There were gleeful suggestions on another thread that requiring liability insurance of gun manufacturers might put the gun makers out of business. I think the cost of insurance is greatly over-estimated by some. There are 300 million guns in private hands in the Unites States. More than 99% are never involved in criminal or unsafe use, that's a hell of a large pool to spread risk around. . .
    Simpler is better, except when complicated looks really cool.

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    Default Re: A proposal for regulation from a firearms enthusiast

    Paul..I applaud your repeated efforts to reason with the crackpots on this forum, but you're wasting your time. They are not interested in compromise or reason.

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    Default Re: A proposal for regulation from a firearms enthusiast

    Then perhaps the crackpots need to be dragged kicking and screaming into a new reality.

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    Default Re: A proposal for regulation from a firearms enthusiast

    Quote Originally Posted by Peach View Post
    Then perhaps the crackpots need to be dragged kicking and screaming into a new reality.
    Nah...NRA-ILA has proved to be adequate advocacy against the crackpots.

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    Default Re: A proposal for regulation from a firearms enthusiast

    Mr. Pless I appreciate the time, thought and effort that you have put into this proposal. It is obvious from this and other threads that you are doing quite a bit of soul searching in the aftermath of these shootings. I know that I am, and I think that most responsible gun owners are doing the same.

    There is great pressure and a great desire to do something.

    That said, how would your proposal have prevented or mitigated the tragedy of the school shooting? I believe that it was you that stated on another thread that the same results could have been achieved if the shooter had used an old army revolver and a hand full of paper caps. ( for the non gun savvy that is a 150yr old black powder pistol).

    Most of your proposals will produce a lot of irritation, inconvenience, and expense for law abiding responsible gun owners. Criminals will ignore the law. Anti gunners will say that we need to restrict more, and more, and more ( See post #3).

    I am not advocating doing nothing. An armed populace can be a menace to itself if it is not an informed, educated and responsible populace. We need to institute firearms safety training in our public schools and we need to do a better job of identifying mentally unstable individuals at that level. We should make the cost of safety training tax deductible for adults. Gun safes should be tax deductible (actually they are, see below).

    I could possibly support the concept of your tiered access to firearms with a fair amount of tinkering. I.E --- If I am going to be required to qualify for a class III weapon then I may as well go ahead and get a machine gun with a short barrel and a silencer--- I don’t think that was exactly your intent.

    The “Gun Safe Loophole”
    This information was accurate a few years ago, things may have changed. Check with your tax professional first.
    The IRS will allow you to deduct the cost of a safe in which you keep tax records. They do not restrict the size of the safe, they do not say that you can only store tax records in the safe. Buy a big gun safe and keep your tax records and your guns in it.
    Gun safes are cheap and readily available, every responsible gun owner should have one.
    Even a fish wouldn’t get in trouble if it kept it's mouth shut.

  27. #27
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    Default Re: A proposal for regulation from a firearms enthusiast

    The "assault" weapons ban was dropped because it had no effect whatsoever. What are you trying to accomplish with your plan, other than to make legal firearms more expensive, or available only to the rich or connected.

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    Default Re: A proposal for regulation from a firearms enthusiast

    Bold for additions, underline for strikethrough *n is a footnote


    Use the current federal background check system for all commercial and private sales of tier one firearms. Reinstate a maximumwaiting period of seven consecutive calendar days *0 for the first of each class ofall such firearms purchases unless an exemption is granted by a state or federal judge.*1. Applicants for purchase of firearm should demonstrate passage of a firearm safety course (similar to most state's current *2 hunter safety course). All guns must be safely stored in certified locked gun vault or be fitted with a trigger lock which if removed illegally will render the gun unusable. *3 Certificate of liability insurance, similar to auto liability insurance, must be current for all owners of tier one firearms. Upon cancellation, owners will have one year to find alternative insurance; firearms may continue to be used during this period and will not be confiscated for being uninsured. Firearms confiscated for any reason will be held without damage or alteration or modification pending return to the owner or his designated agent.

    Tier One firearms will include:

    rimfire hand and long guns of any action type excepting full auto with a maximum capacity of twenty[U]ten[UI] rounds, plus one additional round in the chamber
    all action type of shotguns, excepting full auto with a maximum magazine capacity of ninefive rounds, plus one additional round in the chamber
    all action type of centerfire rifles excepting full auto with a maximum capacity of thirtyfive rounds, plus one additional round in the chamber
    single and double action revolver type centerfire handguns with a maximum capacity of [B]ten[B] six rounds in the cylinder, and a barrel length of more than [B]2"[B] 5˝"
    certain special purpose handguns, either bolt or single shot, will be considered centerfire rifles for the purpose of regulation (by way of example, i am thinking of the remington xp100 and thompson contender types) *4
    All semi-automatic handguns will be banned for sale as tier one guns.

    Existing owners of tier one guns will have one year to comply with the Federal background check at no cost to themselves. If a current tier one gun owner wishes to surrender his weapon rather than comply, they may transfer the ownership of such a gun to any qualified buyer. FFL dealer (I'm assuming a sale here) or the Federal government will buy back the weapon at fair market value as dtermined six months before this proposal becomes law. Such sales may be undone if it is discovered that the seller should have been deemed to have passed the background check, and both seller and buyer compensated by the Federal government; such compensation to be at least ten times the value of the sold items, divided equally between buyer and seller, and total cost of legal representation, court costs, fines, fees, and any other expenses to either party, paid to that party.

    All other weapons will be considered Tier 2 for licensing purposes. Ownership of Tier 2 weapons will fall under the current guidelines for Class III firearms, which include an extensive federal background check, approval of the head of local law enforcement agency, random audits of the safe storage of such firearms. Again for current owners of Tier 2 firearms, there will be no cost for application for permit in the first year after adoption of this law. Recognizing that some local law enforcement agencies currently do not approve any applications for Class III firearms, a special federal level appeals process will be put in place for any denials by local law enforcement. Other than the background check processing fee, there should be no exceptional cost to own more than one Tier 2 type firearm.

    Of course the regulations for safe storage and firearms training for Tier 1 firearms also applies to Tier 2 firearms.

    This above proposal will not pre-empt any state or local laws or regulations for concealed or open carry or transport of guns in those jurisdictions.

    *0 consecutive calendar days, because otherwise a day will consist of days that the state wants to count.
    *1 Domestic violence victims are one class where emergency license, training, and purchase may be appropriate. Here in Minnesota we can do all of this in less than 24 hours if it's really needed.
    *2 Remove the temptation to make the class impossible to pass.
    *3 Certified storage is ... no. Nightmare to design, install, security of installation documents risks theft of arms, .... The trigger lock requirement is a fantasy. There is no such device, and I seriously doubt there ever could be. So this is a requirement for the certified vaults. You could add "or cable or chamber locks", but trigger locks as required by this law will never exist. Probably not even for new firearms designs.
    *4 We've had these lawsuits. We won. You don't get to undo it. The XP-100 and T/C are pistols. If anything, the Remington 600 should be classified as a long-barreled pistol, as the action was first used in the XP-100.

    The government is presumably a qualified buyer, but I fear it could become a bully in the market.
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    Default Re: A proposal for regulation from a firearms enthusiast

    Well that started as a pretty modest proposal, and just got gutted most thoroughly.

    Any gun regulation that does anything to reduce bad uses of guns WILL inconvenience law-abiding citizens. It will also probably cost you money.
    "For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations,
    for nature cannot be fooled."

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    Default Re: A proposal for regulation from a firearms enthusiast

    Quote Originally Posted by Keith Wilson View Post
    Well that started as a pretty modest proposal, and just got gutted most thoroughly.

    Any gun regulation that does anything to reduce bad uses of guns WILL inconvenience law-abiding citizens. It will also probably cost you money.
    How do the changes I made "reduce bad uses of guns"?
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  31. #31
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    Default Re: A proposal for regulation from a firearms enthusiast

    I don't think they do. I think the changes you made would reduce the effectiveness of Paul's proposed law, and I think it was a modest proposal to start with..
    "For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations,
    for nature cannot be fooled."

    Richard Feynman

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    Default Re: A proposal for regulation from a firearms enthusiast

    Quote Originally Posted by Keith Wilson View Post
    Any gun regulation that does anything to reduce bad uses of guns WILL inconvenience law-abiding citizens. It will also probably cost you money.
    Maybe, maybe not.
    Certainly, many law-abiding citizens are willing to suffer some degree of inconvenience to reduce the level of gun violence in this country. Any many law abiding hunters and target shooters are likely to suffer no inconvenience at all.

    I'm not particularly inconvenienced that I can't own fully automatic weapons, or have to fill out a background check to purchase a firearm, or have to be fingerprinted to secure a carry permit. If this and more is what it takes to put some curbs on the NRA-ILA crackpots, that let's move forward on some sensible restrictions.

  33. #33
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    Default Re: A proposal for regulation from a firearms enthusiast

    I don't think Paul meant to ban firearms that already exist, but he did with those ammo counts. I'm not sure that the numbers I put in cover all firearms (I seem to remember a 12 shot .22 revolver with two barrels.) I should have used 7/8" for the minimum barrel length (some Derringers are probably less than even that!) There's a county in PA that's closed their license processing office while they search for funding for it. It appears that the clock counting the n days they have to do things has stopped while they do this, but those whose licenses are expiring do not have a stopped clock, and cannot go to a different county's license office to get renewals. You may find this funny. I think it's entirely predictable, and infuriating.
    Await dreams, loves, life; | There is always tomorrow. | Until there is not.

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    Default Re: A proposal for regulation from a firearms enthusiast

    You're mistaken, Mrleft8, Ms Lanza's guns were used for "target shooting", according to the Media. Obviously, she should've kept them locked up when not at the range, as my rifles and shotgun are. Equally obvious, to us anyway (thanks to the media), is that her alimony payments were more than adequate for her to have sought professional help for Adam, as she was fully aware that he was "anti-social".

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    Default Re: A proposal for regulation from a firearms enthusiast

    Quote Originally Posted by Peach View Post
    Maybe, maybe not.
    Certainly, many law-abiding citizens are willing to suffer some degree of inconvenience to reduce the level of gun violence in this country. Any many law abiding hunters and target shooters are likely to suffer no inconvenience at all.

    I'm not particularly inconvenienced that I can't own fully automatic weapons, or have to fill out a background check to purchase a firearm, or have to be fingerprinted to secure a carry permit. If this and more is what it takes to put some curbs on the NRA-ILA crackpots, that let's move forward on some sensible restrictions.
    That's just it, the only proposals being offered inconvenience law abiding citizens, and do nothing to curb gun violence.

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