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Thread: young people can be very reckless... a hoax to the death

  1. #251
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    Default Re: young people can be very reckless... a hoax to the death

    Quote Originally Posted by downthecreek View Post
    This is the tip of an enormous, hideous iceberg. And it is the subject of this thread - not the infinite woes of the whole world, which you could, I suppose, bewail in a new thread if you were so minded.
    All I'm saying is that it's being blown out of all proportion. Considering the vastness of the infinite woes of the whole World.

    I suggested earlier in this thread, and now appears to be confirmed, the attributes of this lady's death are far more complex than a stupid jape, which was "broadcast ['...] several times" on the other side of the World. The only reason it's very well known in the UK is that it was conflated in your un-serious media.

    Whilst I don't think the hoax is funny (at all) I have more than firm reservations as to its causing the suicide of this nurse, if indeed it is suicide.
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  2. #252
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    Default Re: young people can be very reckless... a hoax to the death

    Quote Originally Posted by Andrew Craig-Bennett View Post
    The Dreadnought Hoax was neither dumb nor tasteless; it was very clever and very funny.
    Even so, Stephen writes and the end of the book "that I, for one, felt very uncomfortable at mocking, even in the the friendliest spirit, such charming people."

    However dumb and tasteless, or clever and very funny each hoax still belongs to the same genre.
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  3. #253
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    Default Re: young people can be very reckless... a hoax to the death

    Quote Originally Posted by Phillip Allen View Post
    of course it was intended as a joke...
    No, a joke is something that the victims can also laugh at. This was not a joke, it was a process of earning a penny or two by making a fool of some one. Not quite as offensive as laughing at the disabled but in the same vein.
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  4. #254
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    Default Re: young people can be very reckless... a hoax to the death

    Quote Originally Posted by Duncan Gibbs View Post
    if indeed it is suicide.
    She was found hanging with injuries to her wrists and three notes were found. If it walks like a duck . . . . .
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    Default Re: young people can be very reckless... a hoax to the death

    Quote Originally Posted by Peerie Maa View Post
    No, a joke is something that the victims can also laugh at. This was not a joke, it was a process of earning a penny or two by making a fool of some one. Not quite as offensive as laughing at the disabled but in the same vein.
    no, you are wrong... and if you're honest you'll think back and remember jokes where the butt of those jokes were NOT amused...RIGHT back to Mother Goose
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  6. #256
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    Default Re: young people can be very reckless... a hoax to the death

    Quote Originally Posted by Phillip Allen View Post
    no, you are wrong... and if you're honest you'll think back and remember jokes where the butt of those jokes were NOT amused...RIGHT back to Mother Goose
    It's a lot about where to draw the line. Do you still tell jokes about thick Irish or Poles, avaricious Jews?
    Further more this was about exploiting some one who had no ability to respond. A joke is a different sort of social contract.
    I remember the reaction of a forumite who had been tricked and made to look a fool by SamF, how funny was that?
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  7. #257
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    Default Re: young people can be very reckless... a hoax to the death

    I draw some personal lines which have evolved over the years. My jokes of today are far kinder than my jokes when I was an adolescent monster in boarding school. At least at the personal level.

    But throughout my organizing career I used my sometimes dark sense of humor to turn various actions into the sort of group pranks that cause the power side to over-react and to look really lame. They were designed to be at least emotionally hurtful to their butts. We caused the public (at least part of the public) to laugh at their expense. No one really enjoys ridicule that undercuts their social authority. Tough. This is not a Don Rickles show where the butt of the joke is flattered by the attention. This is old fashioned ridicule designed to hurt some and amuse others.

    Prior to the nurse's death, the call to the hospital was indeed a prank getting some great PR, even though the Royal Household in the best stiff upper lip tradition was giving scant ammo to further pranking. The suicide is the terrible thing, not the prank. That reaction by a marginally involved and publicly unnamed party whom no one, according to both hospital and palace, was blaming was utterly unpredictable, a totally disporportionate response that makes one think there was more in the nurse's life than we know yet.

    I find a great deal of the anti-prank handwringing a bit off the mark, to say the least.

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    Default Re: young people can be very reckless... a hoax to the death

    Thanks, Ian. A thoughtful post, unlike the sanctimonious judgement-slinging so common to this thread.
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    Default Re: young people can be very reckless... a hoax to the death

    I wonder if all you 'liberal' thinkers are now gonna appologize for all those Bush 'jokes'
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    Default Re: young people can be very reckless... a hoax to the death

    Quote Originally Posted by Phillip Allen View Post
    I wonder if all you 'liberal' thinkers are now gonna appologize for all those Bush 'jokes'
    Set the standard, Phillip and apologize for calling President Obama a chimp.
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    Default Re: young people can be very reckless... a hoax to the death

    Quote Originally Posted by seanz View Post
    Set the standard, Phillip and apologize for calling President Obama a chimp.
    lets see if the liberal will do it first... it had better be doggone profound before I believe it... it's a good example of a double standard... remember I'm not the one who said if it isn't funny (to me) then it's not a joke
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    Default Re: young people can be very reckless... a hoax to the death

    Quote Originally Posted by Phillip Allen View Post
    I wonder if all you 'liberal' thinkers are now gonna appologize for all those Bush 'jokes'
    I wonder if you'll ever realize what a buffoon you've become!
    Keep digging!

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    Default Re: young people can be very reckless... a hoax to the death

    I'd hate to see this interesting thread derailed from a discussion of a prank call and a somehow related suicide to whether Bush jokes or Obama jokes or anything besides prank calls are funny, hypocritical, or whatever.

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    Default Re: young people can be very reckless... a hoax to the death

    Sorry about that, it's hard to resist.
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    Default Re: young people can be very reckless... a hoax to the death

    Quote Originally Posted by Duncan Gibbs View Post
    The only reason it's very well known in the UK is that it was conflated in your un-serious media.
    No, Duncan, it was reported. (I presume you meant "inflated"? Conflated doesn't really make any sense here) And until the consequences emerged, it was a very minor news item. Citing the tabloid press is a lazy defence indeed, especially when you live on the other side of the world and know next to nothing about the reality of what you cite.

    Whilst I don't think the hoax is funny (at all) I have more than firm reservations as to its causing the suicide of this nurse, if indeed it is suicide.
    It was, indeed, suicide.

    Popular cultures has been infantilised all across the globe and part of that process has been the importation into the "adult" world of the cruelty and thoughtlessness of children. Adults should know better.

    You and others have trivialised this into a "harmless prank" but it was far from harmless - not because the suicide could have been foreseen, but because harm to the innocent victims could have been foreseen if anybody had bothered to think about it. Psychological harm, certainly, and practical harm as well. The nurses might well have been disciplined or lost their jobs. The "harmless prank" became harmful as soon as the radio station decided it had struck gold and broadcast it with gleeful disregard for the harm it could do. Quite frankly, the lack of empathy or imagination shown by you and some others here appalls me.

    Some time ago, a couple of "comedians" (neither of whom I ever found remotely funny) made a prank call to Andrew Sachs, the actor who played Manuel in "Fawlty Towers", and teased him about his granddaughter - claiming, amongst other things, to having had sex with her. They thought it was hilarious and they caused great distress. Another dismal example of this mindless "humour" .

    The fact that the world is full of misery detracts not one iota from the disgusting nature of this miserable development in popular culture, of which this is a spectacular example.
    Last edited by downthecreek; 12-14-2012 at 03:20 AM.
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    Default Re: young people can be very reckless... a hoax to the death

    a well aimed rant... I thank you
    The doctrine of nonresistance against arbitrary power, and oppression, is absurd, slavish, and destructive of the good and happiness of mankind.
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  17. #267
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    Default Re: young people can be very reckless... a hoax to the death

    Quote Originally Posted by Ian McColgin View Post

    The suicide is the terrible thing, not the prank. That reaction by a marginally involved and publicly unnamed party whom no one, according to both hospital and palace, was blaming was utterly unpredictable, a totally disporportionate response that makes one think there was more in the nurse's life than we know yet.
    Harm to the victims was easily predictable, as I have stated above. And the possibility that someone who is pranked may have other things going on in their lives that make them more than usually vulnerable is, perhaps, something the pranksters might like to consider. Or not, as the victims are "non persons" when it comes to jacking up the ratings and "having a laugh".

    Public humiliation may be all very well when people know what they are in for and choose to be involved, but ordinary, unsuspecting and innocent people are quite another. There are good reasons why they are legally protected, but this radio station seems to have placed "having a laugh" above their duty to observe that protection. I find it impossible to believe that they were unable to contact the hospital and they certainly didn't have, and (as they probably realised) would never have obtained, the permission of the hospital or the two victims.

    Although there was no disciplinary action I have no doubt there was a furore when news of the broadcasts emerged. At that point managers must have realised how badly their system had failed, with consequent serious harm to the hospital (with its long history of providing medical care to the royal family and other very high profile people) and the nurses must have felt that carried a very heavy burden of responsibility.

    Harmless prank my a**se. It's time "grownups" grew up.
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  18. #268
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    Default Re: young people can be very reckless... a hoax to the death

    Quote Originally Posted by downthecreek View Post
    Quite frankly, the lack of empathy or imagination shown by you and some others here appalls me.
    I understand your point, but I find the leap from hoax to suicide in this instance to be extremely unbelievable, if:
    1. The nurses were not publicly identified;
    2. Neither the hospital management, nor the Royal Family remonstrated either nurse;
    3. Jacintha Saldanha's family, friends and work colleagues all stated that she was a strong individual and that a joke, however poor in form and taste, would not have tipped her hand to take her own life;
    4. That the real targets of the hoax are, in fact, the Royal Family, not the staff of the hospital.

    At this point I'll re-quote Andrew's post from the last page:

    Quote Originally Posted by Andrew Craig-Bennett View Post
    Returning to our muttons, here is a new twist from the blogosphere:

    In a sensational development overnight in the case of Royal nurse Jacintha Saldanha, her husband Benedict Barboza has been described by family members as ‘furious’ about the media coverage in relation to his late wife. Former colleagues with whom she worked in Mumbai insist that she would have never have committed suicide. The opinion is shared by her former classmates, and also her family. Yet in Australia, there are calls for the two pranksters to face jail.

    Friends, colleagues and managers who knew her during her college days at the Father Muller’s School of Nursing in Mangalore describe today her as bold, smart and “a very hardworking girl”. This we knew already, but the almost 100% dismissal of her death as suicide resulting from one prank call alone outside the UK is marked….and is in stark contrast to the media coverage in Britain.

    “She was not the type who would chicken out of difficult situations,” says former colleague Stella M, “Never had we imagined that she could take away her own life. She was not the type of person who would commit suicide.”

    “We are all shattered. I have worked with her and was her junior in college,” says an Abu Dhabi-based nurse currently working in a government hospital there, “She was a very practical person, very clever and never weak hearted. That is why her suicide is very suspicious. Friends of ours who know her grandmother in India are being told that she had never discussed anything about the hoax call in her last phone call just days before she died,” the nurse added, speaking on condition of anonymity.

    Reliable reports in the Mumbai and Indian mainstream media are appearing that suggest Jacintha Saldhana’s family members in Karnataka suspect “foul play” and want an independent inquiry into the episode. Close family friend Ivan D’Souza concurred with The Slog view posted yesterday when he told IANS news that “the family is anxiously waiting for the postmortem report and the outcome of the inquest by the Scotland Yard, because they suspect foul play in her tragic death, as she was a strong woman and would not have resorted to suicide”.

    Mr D’Souza, who lives at Shirva, about 60 km from Mangalore, met Barboza’s family members at Shirva along with their former local MP Vinay Kumar Sorake. Sources close to Sorake, I understand, have said that they “greatly suspect” the speculation about suicide.

    The UK media set has repeated several times that Mrs Saldhana was found hanged and left a suicide note for her family. But a source writing to The Slog suggests that it wasn’t a suicide note. A person claiming to be a close family friend emailed The Slog following yesterday’s posting, to allege that Mr Barboza and his wife regarded the prank incident as “very minor”, and to disagree with threaders suggesting that a form of cultural pride had led to her suicide. The imputation was that Barboza is furious at the assumption by both hospital and media that the prank alone led to suicide. I also gather that he is not angry at the two Australian DJs now thrust into the centre of the scandal.

    This is turn seems to fit the Guardian version of events as depicted there last Saturday. The paper described an interview with the dead woman’s mother-in-law Carmine Barboza, who said that neither Saldanha nor her husband, Benedict Barboza, had talked of the hoax phone call or given any clue that she had been under any pressure or strain.

    “Benedict used to call every day but neither he nor Jacintha said anything about what had happened. Everything seemed normal,” she told the Guardian. Significantly absent from Keith Vaz’s statement after meeting the family at the House of Commons were (a) any absolution of the hospital’s role in Jacintha’s death and (b) any criticism of the two Disc Jockeys who made the prank call.

    In many ways, the spotlight now turns on Saldhana’s widower Benedict Barboza, the contents of the note, and suspicions about events after the prank call. But the Daily Star reports this morning that the DJs Michael Christian and Mel Greig could face up to five years in jail. ‘Bosses at the radio station whose prank call led to a nurse at Princess Kate’s hospital killing herself could be jailed,’ led the page one piece, ‘Lawyers in Australia said managers could be prosecuted because they did not get the hospital’s permission to air the recorded conversation. They face a fine of up to £30,000 or even five years in prison if convicted.’

    One wonders a little bit if some of those involved in this case have been reading the advice of Aussie-loving expat Lord McAlpine about how to manipulate and distract the media. I’m becoming increasingly suspicious at the way these two Aussies are being turned into global patsies here. I must also say that, when this all comes out of the wash, if I were Christian and Greig, I’d chuck a gigantic law suit The Star’s way for that brazen ‘led to a nurse at Princess Kate’s hospital killing herself’ libel in the paragraph above.


    http://hat4uk.wordpress.com/2012/12/...edia-coverage/
    Nick has pointed out there were three notes about her. Until such time as the content, or nature of these notes are made public and a full forensic examination is also made public, or used as testimony in a coroner's court we are idly speculating and bloviating on the matter. If, in the fullness of time it is revealed and confirmed that the hoax was the cause of the unfortunate decision to take her own life, I would think that some laws will be made and the certain individuals that promulgated the hoax will have little left of their careers, and may even be bereft of their liberty.

    If the short term effects are that:
    a. Stupid attempts at humour, such as this, are looked upon as uncommercial activities as a result of the way things have turned out, and;
    b. 2Day FM is catapulted into oblivion, then,

    Good! Three cheers! I detest such anaesthetic forms of "entertainment." I'm with you 100% on this issue.

    But please, DON'T accuse me of either a lack of empathy or imagination simply because I don't share your particular view of this rather sad situation.
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  19. #269
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    Default Re: young people can be very reckless... a hoax to the death

    The English law of torts, and hence in this case the Australian law of torts, (Smith v Leech Brain & Co) and also the American law of torts (Vosburg v Putney) includes what is known as the "thin skull rule"... or to use the standard legal expression "you must take your plaintiff as you find him".

    It matters not at all what Mrs Saldanha's mental state was, or what else may have been going on in her life.

    I would have expected a little more awareness of the law of all three countries represented in this discussion.
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  20. #270
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    Default Re: young people can be very reckless... a hoax to the death

    Both egg shell skull and crumbling skull are elements of both criminal and civil actions that are not simple black letter application but must have some relationship. We don't yet know the issues of Saldanaha's death, have not the ability to sort the competing claims of family who flat out don't believe it suicide or, if suicide, whether it was even tangentially related to the prank call. In the absence of something definitive on that, any application of eggshell is speculative.

  21. #271
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    Default Re: young people can be very reckless... a hoax to the death

    Quote Originally Posted by Andrew Craig-Bennett View Post
    The English law of torts, and hence in this case the Australian law of torts, (Smith v Leech Brain & Co) and also the American law of torts (Vosburg v Putney) includes what is known as the "thin skull rule"... or to use the standard legal expression "you must take your plaintiff as you find him".

    It matters not at all what Mrs Saldanha's mental state was, or what else may have been going on in her life.

    I would have expected a little more awareness of the law of all three countries represented in this discussion.
    I'll be the first to say that I don't have any idea what you're talking about. If it doesn't matter what Mrs. Saldanha's mental state was, then I might be responsible myself for her death. The whole notion that her mental state was so unhinged that she took her own life, and that the prank was what unhinged her, is presumably what would need to be proved.

    So it does matter what her mental state was, and what was going on in her life is central; the prank, after all, is one thing that went on in her life, and to select that and by policy ignore anything else is a classic instance of begging the question.

    But the law is sometimes very stupid, and if you're aware of some legal principle that explains your statements, I'd be genuinely interested to hear it.
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  22. #272
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    Default Re: young people can be very reckless... a hoax to the death

    "Eggshell" devolves from tort and criminal cases where a physical injury was the consequence of some act and the injury as more serious (or happened at all) because of some theretofore unseen weakness of the victim. Like a mild touch on someone who had a skull "thin as an eggshell." It is always subject to defense and counter. Massachusetts was (till I don't know but sometime after the '60s) a state permitting corporal punishment. In litigation over the death of a child who had been struck in accordance with the rules by a teacher it was found that the brain-blood vessel event that caused the death was highly probable at any time and it could not be established that the punative blow caused it. Teacher not liable.

    There are always matters of fact to establish before you know how law and precedent will be applied but eggshell comes down to you can indeed be held responsible for harm made worse or happening at all because the victim had a unique weakness that you could not have known about.

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