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Thread: Lateen

  1. #36
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    Default Re: Lateen

    [QUOTE=Popeye53;3613171]Nice one here too.. love the hulls on some of the latine riggers. plumb stem, counter stern. Anyone know of any plans for this type of open boat?

    Did you ever find any plans for something like this?


  2. #37
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    Default Re: Lateen

    Johnno, thank you for nice video. I saw lot of deadeye usage.. so benefical for my deadeye application..

  3. #38
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    Default Re: Lateen

    Quote Originally Posted by skuthorp View Post
    On the back of a clipping from 1897 I have a reference to a lateen sailed yacht with a sprit mizzen being sailed at Cowes week, by a Lady .................. Her name is clipped off unfortunately.
    I think that it is related with aspect ratio again.. This type of rig , needs good sailing experiance. Because this rig can be used different rig types. For light or mid wind blow, it can be used as bermudan.. But for strong wind , take the boom back and that time it behaves like gaff rig and prevent the heel of the boat. My thinking is due to this propertiy of lateen, such boats have less daraft..

  4. #39
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    Default Re: Lateen

    Quote Originally Posted by paul austin View Post
    I grew up in Tampa. One weekend my Dad took us to Tarpon Springs where the Greek community used these sails for 15-20 fishing boats, usually manned by the sons of the Gr. fishermen. They do swing the sail around the front of the mast. What interests me is Dana's statement about their straight shallow keel. I wonder how they hold their line with that keel.
    Maybe the sail area being so high,yet narrow above the mast means the boat tips over rather than slides sideways. If that is the case, they lean into their bilge where they carry some weight.
    But maybe there's another reason. Does anybody have an idea?

    Sorry I took the wrong quote.. This is the correct one .

    I think that it is related with aspect ratio again.. This type of rig , needs good sailing experiance. Because this rig can be used different rig types. For light or mid wind blow, it can be used as bermudan.. But for strong wind , take the boom back and that time it behaves like gaff rig and prevent the heel of the boat. My thinking is due to this propertiy of lateen, such boats have less daraft..

  5. #40
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    Default Re: Lateen

    She went to the "new world". Ahhhh, I just had to...
    Scott

  6. #41
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    Default Re: Lateen

    [QUOTE=mpdebono;5429672]
    Quote Originally Posted by Popeye53 View Post
    Nice one here too.. love the hulls on some of the latine riggers. plumb stem, counter stern. Anyone know of any plans for this type of open boat?

    Did you ever find any plans for something like this?

    Francois Vivier has a lateener, and Selway Fisher also. Both very nice.

  7. #42
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    Default Re: Lateen

    It's always been a popular rig.





    The Snark with the 2 boys, that may as well have been me. It taught me the basics of sailing, and my brother and friends and I had irreplaceable adventures.

  8. #43
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    Default Re: Lateen

    Watertaxi´s Poros Greece. Not that long ago.


  9. #44
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    Default Re: Lateen

    Quote Originally Posted by FF View Post

    Francois Vivier has a lateener, and Selway Fisher also. Both very nice.
    I'll contribute this boat - http://mourav.com/canoa-da-picada/, which is lovely although far larger. I wonder if it could be successfully reduced to the size of something like Atkin's Valgerda (18'7").
    Last edited by Wiley Baggins; 12-31-2017 at 08:59 PM.

  10. #45
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    Default Re: Lateen

    Model Pahi Lateen rig 3.jpgtesting Something a bit different hereic postingfrom computer

    Something a bit different here.....an Oceanic Lateen on a 1/10 scale model of my SO Pahi (Shunting Oceanic Pahi), which in full size is a 30 ft double canoe type proa.

    Since the image upload function seems to be working for me, I can follow up with pics and text info of the actual build.....probably under the heading of SO Pahi.

  11. #46
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    Default Re: Lateen

    Quote Originally Posted by Lugalong View Post
    Model Pahi Lateen rig 3.jpgtesting Something a bit different hereic postingfrom computer

    Something a bit different here.....an Oceanic Lateen on a 1/10 scale model of my SO Pahi (Shunting Oceanic Pahi)
    Keep talking...

    Very cool looking boat.

    Peace,
    Robert

  12. #47
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    Default Re: Lateen

    Wiley, That sort of sail (actually maybe more of a "settee" type than a lateen due to the short luff) is certainly possible in a smaller size. I've actually built a couple for small boats. In a lot of cases though, it makes a better all round recreational sail when fitted with a loose footed boom and sailed as a balanced lug.

    !SETTEE.jpg

    Whether or not it would look "right" on a Valgerda is another question.

  13. #48
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    Default Re: Lateen

    Quote Originally Posted by amish rob View Post
    Keep talking...

    Very cool looking boat.

    Peace,
    Robert
    Glad you like him, and there is lots I have to say about the craft, although, pressure is on right now to get on with the build in order to vacate the workshed by the end of next month ( because the shop and home has been sold).

    Both hulls are basically built, but now need topside planking and deck covering, in order to cope with being outside in the weather, while i plod on with finish and fit out.
    Have just glued cabin bottom ( which is the double berth base) onto the bulkheads and am waiting for this to kick before I can continue. So have taken the opportunity to post here.

  14. #49
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    Default Re: Lateen

    Quote Originally Posted by Lugalong View Post
    Glad you like him, and there is lots I have to say about the craft, although, pressure is on right now to get on with the build in order to vacate the workshed by the end of next month ( because the shop and home has been sold).

    Both hulls are basically built, but now need topside planking and deck covering, in order to cope with being outside in the weather, while i plod on with finish and fit out.
    Have just glued cabin bottom ( which is the double berth base) onto the bulkheads and am waiting for this to kick before I can continue. So have taken the opportunity to post here.
    Please, please don’t forget to update when you can. I’d like to hear and see more.

    I really like canoes, and if they can be tied together with a friend or two, so much the better.

    Peace,
    Robert

  15. #50
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    Default Re: Lateen

    Quote Originally Posted by Todd Bradshaw View Post
    Wiley, That sort of sail (actually maybe more of a "settee" type than a lateen due to the short luff) is certainly possible in a smaller size. I've actually built a couple for small boats. In a lot of cases though, it makes a better all round recreational sail when fitted with a loose footed boom and sailed as a balanced lug.

    !SETTEE.jpg

    Whether or not it would look "right" on a Valgerda is another question.
    I find that to be a very handsome type of sail. I think a little sailing canoe with a pair of these would look awesome.
    Boomed, of course.

    Peace,
    Robert

  16. #51
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    Default Re: Lateen

    Quote Originally Posted by amish rob View Post
    I find that to be a very handsome type of sail. I think a little sailing canoe with a pair of these would look awesome.
    Boomed, of course.

    Peace,
    Robert

    Todd makes the point that ‘Settee’ is the description for a sail with a luff edge below the yard, rather than a Lateen( having yard heel extending to the tack)…. Which makes sense if we can agree that the settee relates to a lugsail when it has 4 corners, and a Lateen when it has 3.
    So in the case where the idea is to extend the luff by stretching the portion between the tack and the heel of the yard, along with maintaining the 3 cornered configuration and then adding a boom, Oceanic Lateen sounds apt?
    But then we are talking about shunting being a necessity as a means to accommodate the boom and also to maintain the Lateen sweep angle; whereas a balance lug configuration has the boom squarely in lugsail territory.

    Use of 2 Oceanic Lateen sails, as suggested by you Rob, is the rig that was seen by Cap’t Samuel Wallis on his arrival in the Tuamotu archipelago ( when voyaging in the south Pacific a little before Cook arrived there).

    Evidence for this apparently to be found in the Australian National library in Canberra, where his sketch of three Pahi under sail is kept, and he is the only one who has seen these craft under sail, but for copyright reasons I will not post a printed image of this sketch that I have in my research material, although, a personal rendering is possible when I have time to spare.

  17. #52
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    Default Re: Lateen

    I find that to be a very handsome type of sail. I think a little sailing canoe with a pair of these would look awesome.
    Boomed, of course.
    That is basically the way Rushton's "Vesper" canoe was rigged when it won the 1886 American Canoe Association cup races. It had two sails with about 75 total square feet of sail area, boomed and rigged as balanced lugs on a canoe hull 15'6" long, yet with their basic profiles quite similar to settee sails. I have seen no references that state what they called this sort of sail configuration and I suspect that some were rigged with bee blocks on the sides of the boom for single-line reefing. The line would run up, through the sail and back to the boom several times and with the help of the batten stiffener, pull the sail down quickly and evenly when reefing. These early sailing canoes were very often over-canvased, so fast reefing was a very good thing at times.


  18. #53
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    Default Re: Lateen

    Here's a couple of dodgy old photos of feluccas taken in the Sweet Water Canal in Egypt in 1940 or early '41 by my late father.





    and a much better quality shot from around the same time by David Hurley - an official Australian war photographer

    "Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome and charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime" Mark Twain... so... Carpe the living sh!t out of the Diem

    I'd rather look back at my life and say "I can't believe I did that" instead of being there saying "I wish I'd done that"

  19. #54
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    Default Re: Lateen

    Quote Originally Posted by Todd Bradshaw View Post
    Wiley, That sort of sail (actually maybe more of a "settee" type than a lateen due to the short luff) is certainly possible in a smaller size. I've actually built a couple for small boats. In a lot of cases though, it makes a better all round recreational sail when fitted with a loose footed boom and sailed as a balanced lug.


    Whether or not it would look "right" on a Valgerda is another question.
    Thanks for that clarification/expansion Todd, much appreciated. I wasn't very clear with regard to Valgerda. I wasn't thinking of changing Valgerda's rig, I was thinking of the Canoa da Picada reduced to a boat comparable in size to Valgerda. Roughly reducing the Portuguese boat by 50% in length with the understanding that altering the other dimensions, including sail area, wouldn't be quite so straightforward. Some of the earlier posts on this thread were folks interested in building and the Canoa da Picada seems like a attractive, but possibly impractical, starting point.

  20. #55
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    Default Re: Lateen

    Lateen Rigs in Puritan New England.


  21. #56
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    Default Re: Lateen

    Pisqutaw (sp?) River gundalows? These were found around Great Bay in Eastern New Hampshire. They look to be carrying a load of salt hay.

  22. #57
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    Default Re: Lateen

    Quote Originally Posted by ahp View Post
    Pisqutaw (sp?) River gundalows? These were found around Great Bay in Eastern New Hampshire. They look to be carrying a load of salt hay.
    yes. Piscataqua and Merrimack rivers.


    The Lateens on the Piscataqua Gundalow are a little different than most, in that the yard is not raised and lowered on the mast in use, rather the yard is controlled by a tackle at it's foot/ butt end and fixed semi permanently in place held by a heavy rope or often a chain at the mast head.

    We also had smaller Salt Hay gundalows often also Lateen rigged and square bowed capable of going right up on the marsh at high tide to collect hay.

    Last edited by Daniel Noyes; 01-08-2018 at 10:31 PM.

  23. #58
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    Default Re: Lateen

    here's one i saw in Liguria:



    and some from Sardegna:






  24. #59
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    Default Re: Lateen

    Quote Originally Posted by Daniel Noyes View Post
    Lateen Rigs in Puritan New England.

    Very interesting. Looks like the sail is reefed to the yard from the top of the sail?

  25. #60
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    Default Re: Lateen

    Quote Originally Posted by Dusty Yevsky View Post
    Very interesting. Looks like the sail is reefed to the yard from the top of the sail?
    yes, to reef the yard was lowered/pivoted parallel to the deck, and the reefs tied in along the yard.

    The height of the Gundalow's stub masts were determined by the height of the lowest bridges these boats were typically navigating.


  26. #61
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    Default Re: Lateen

    I don't think gundalows were limited to New Hampshire and suspect they were popular working craft all over New England, a widespread and practical vessel dating from well before the 18th century.
    There is a favorite anchorage of mine on the Penobscot River called "Gondola Cove". Earlier charts call it Gundalow cove. Just by Sandy Point, Me. for my entire life it was abandoned, with some evidence of a "public house" on shore. This is obviously the place to wait out a change in tide to make it up or down the river. Likely a smugglers haven and rich with history this cove is near the wrecks of long forgotten US warships from the ill-fated Penobscot expedition. Paul Revere, who was court-martialed for his part in this debacle ran home to Boston from this place...
    All up-scale today, the ambiance and romance that I knew from beachcombing as a child has vanished.

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