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Thread: Low horsepower planing boats?

  1. #36
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    Default Re: Low horsepower planing boats?

    thanks again everyone, your responses and ideas are really appreciated.

    I should perhaps admit to some off the wall lateral thinking of my own. This all started with the idea that all the best beaches are on the isle of Wight, all the marina's are horribly crowded and we've got more than enough boats, so another one was going to have to be simple, low maintenance and something that would get us there and back without taking forever.

    A local dentist sold his 45 foot yacht, bought something like a Boston whaler and says he's never had so much fun. we've downsized from 40 foot -16 tons to a First 210 and found the sailing is much more fun and so's the maintenance. my idea here is an extension of that thinking, we're typically time poor and being something of an old Scrooge i don't want to stick a ton of money into something that sits on the mooring because we're too busy to use it or this year especially, the weather isn't right.

    The Uffa Fox Ankle Deep is an interesting one, longer than I was thinking, but knowing the man's ability and liking for long thin and easily driven hulls it probably fits the bill if not the garage - but we do have a 4x4 so launching wouldn't be an issue, seems plenty fast enough with a relatively low power engine (not sure if that's 2 x 9.5 HP's or a typo), but I sure do like the look of her.

    Clarkey's idea for a multi hull is also something I've considered, I was eyeing up a zap kat - thinking they're cheap plus 3 dry suits and would get there quick, I was even doodling around wondering what a dart 18 would be like with a small to medium outboard - ultimately too radical and too wet.

    I like mark B's boats, the Mushulu 12 would make a great yacht tender, Mark clearly knows a thing or two about boats for daily transport, the Edge tracker is clearly the competent coastal boat - the 30-50HP though isn't what I'm striving for - plus if I was going that way I'd be waiting for the 548 to come out.

    Which brings me back to the Bosun's mate, it's probably a bit big, but built light and with an engine at the smaller end of the power range launching wouldn't be that arduous. Not only that to my eye it looks damm good and very practical. Would it scale back to say 19 or 20 feet - but if it did you'd have that nagging sense that the extra couple of feet on the build wouldn't have cost that much more and would have been useful ......

    On a similar note Selway Fisher's Power 1.3 might fit the bill, 20knots with a 25 hP, be interesting to know what it would do with say 15HP, bit industrial looking but none the worse for that and at 17 feet it's the right kind of size.

    Can you really have too many boats?

  2. #37
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    Default Re: Low horsepower planing boats?

    No, you cant have too many boats unless they all start to fall apart from lack of maintanence.

    Not a typo, Uffa powered Ankle Deep with 2 x 9.5hp Evinrudes, as they were only 3lbs heavier than the 2x 6hp he was intending to use. Runs from 3mph to 20 mph with no wash so to speak. Im pretty sure it could be built in strip rather than double diagonal. Its certainly the most efficient hull i have come across that can hit 20mph on 20hp, i think the suggestion was it would run at 12mph on one 9.5hp, should one quit. Thats good going for a boat that size and designed for anything the Solent can throw at at. You could lose 10% of Ankle deeps length and it will be shorter than Bosuns Mate. If you are not intending to get rid of the 4x4,(tow your 210?)then the larger boat should not be an issue, and nothing looks dafter than 12ft boat being towed by Range Rover. BUT, downsizing everything including the tow vehicle can have many benefits. I vote for local boat for local waters, you should never have any problems selling it should you wish to......except of course you cant sell a home made boat until 5 years after its put into use. Ankle deep, you know you want one! Cheers

  3. #38
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    Default Re: Low horsepower planing boats?

    http://ptwatercraft.com/ptwatercraft/PT_Skiff.html could be very nice in the solent.

    Loads of pictures of build and finished boats http://ptwatercraft.com/ptskiff_brochure.pdf

    Brian
    Last edited by keyhavenpotterer; 10-17-2012 at 02:38 AM.

  4. #39
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    Default Re: Low horsepower planing boats?



    What a heritage

  5. #40
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    Default Re: Low horsepower planing boats?

    This is an interesting discussion and my initial reaction was that sailing dreams was living in dream land to get a low powered planing boat that would cope with the rigors of the Solent without serious discomfort not to mention safety worries. However Local boy Uffa would seem to have the answer with Ankle deep and wouldn’t it be nice to see one afloat.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sailing Dreams View Post

    In this part of the world the RIB is the ubiquitous motor boat, but strapping on a 50HP outboard onto a rubber dinghy can't be the only answer. sadly we've lost the lineage to local working craft which evolved for the conditions.

    Much as I hate to say it would a RIB not be the safe if boring option?

    Local working craft lost? In the Solent home of the Royal Navy and Southampton port and 100s of years of island - mainland transport, is that true? Surly not? A bit of digging must produce something f
    or displacement craft lovers,

  6. #41
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    Default Re: Low horsepower planing boats?

    There's a new one from Doug Hylan: The Point Confort 18.

    It does 12 knots with 4 aboard with a 10hp engine.



    It has a V bottom.

    http://www.dhylanboats.com/pointcomfort18_plans.html

    On Doug's Facebook page showing the prototype pictures and construction he also mentions there will be a 15' version drawn, so this one could be perfect for the under 10hp spec. http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?s...3928637&type=1

    I'd also check out the Long Point Skiff from Tom Hill. Simple construction and a flat bottom but perfect for low tide beaching and in tidal mud flat areas etc.

    http://www.thomasjhillboatdesigns.co...ong_point.html
    Ed
    Last edited by keyhavenpotterer; 10-17-2012 at 07:49 AM.

  7. #42
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    Default Re: Low horsepower planing boats?

    In close chop or swells, I can't think of a boat I would rather be in than my tippy Simmons 18. At rest, regardless of which way the waves are coming, it just bobs up and down and slides over them. No surprises. When under way, when other boats have the throttle down and their noses to the air and their stern in a hole, The Simmons wants to be on plane, which means I am back at the launch quicker. 14-20 knots in 2-3 ft chop, and I am not the ultimate adrenaline junkie.

    Yes, it's a relatively flat bottom, but a narrow one and the boat is dead simple to build but doesn't end up looking like it. 25hp is ideal for the stock version. Can be built with open gunwale or decked like mine. It will plane with 2 people and a 15hp IIRC, so a 20hp should not be too shabby if it is built lightly.

    I never have had much luck keeping dry feet in an open boat with a notched stern designed for low hp, short shaft motors. On the worst day, I might drain a quart and some of that is from the bait bucket or from the net. Most I have gotten is some water spots on my glasses and a refreshing bit of spray that dries before I get a chance to complain about it, or to remember that's what in part, I am out there for.

    To each their own, but since 2006, I have dispelled most of the negative after-myths of the Simmons Sea Skiff, and I have gathered a following of those who would opt to have a butt on the chair whenever she heads out.

    This boat is actually fun when it gets rough out. As odd as that may sound, with everyone seemingly looking for the cush ride, surely must have forgotten how much fun an 'able' small boat can be at those times. And no, not that scary kind of fun.



    That saying which has been attributed to this design, "It will get you back, long after you wish you weren't out there", is spot on as far as I am concerned.
    Last edited by pipefitter; 10-17-2012 at 02:30 AM.

  8. #43
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    Default Re: Low horsepower planing boats?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hwyl View Post


    What a heritage
    It seems Uffa's Ankle Deep is now in Newport's Boat Museum on the Isle of Wight. Sounds like we need to make a trip over there with the camera. Take some pics of Sopranino as well.

    http://www.iwcp.co.uk/news/uffaand39...land-4857.aspx

    Brian

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    Default Re: Low horsepower planing boats?

    Nice find Brian! That new Hylan boat looks to be very efficient and more in the size SD was looking at, kind of trad looking too. Should not have forgotten the Simmons, thats a great alternative and very fit for purpose too.

  10. #45
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    Default Re: Low horsepower planing boats?

    Even though its over the original size,in the interests of low power but speed, Atkin Slipby has to get a mention. This was another hull shape i spent some time looking at. I think there was a thread about her, someone wanting to convert to outboard power. I think Hylands boat,at 350lbs will take some beating,unless you want to pull out the stations on Fleet? Both will be lightweight.



    Mostly straight sections for an easy build. 6 to 15 hp up to 15mph. You could always of course buy a little Rhino RIB for not much money, but there is no pride of ownership in comparison to a good wood boat, should that sort of thing be an issue. Just being able to jet wash a hull at the end of the season does have its advantages.....

  11. #46
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    Default Re: Low horsepower planing boats?

    To quote from Mr Hylan after testing the boat

    "Originally this boat was supposed to have a center console, but the customer changed his mind. So i think we already have drawings done for a center console version. This is a sweet boat! I took this one for an evening cruise last night. She will go a little over 20kts with a 20hp, and with the V sections forward it's a very soft ride... no pounding even in a chop."



    http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?s...3928637&type=1

  12. #47
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    Default Re: Low horsepower planing boats?

    There's not much sweeter than that!

  13. #48
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    Default Re: Low horsepower planing boats?

    That sure does look nice, I must implore you not to soil it with a center console, they are ugly as sin.
    If at first you fail, you need to expand your sample size.

  14. #49
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    Default Re: Low horsepower planing boats?

    I am hoping to build one of these this winter. I may explore putting stick steering in it which is what a lot of the work boats here on the James River still use.

    Quote Originally Posted by keyhavenpotterer View Post





  15. #50
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    Default Re: Low horsepower planing boats?

    Freighter canoe?
    Tim Marchetti
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  16. #51
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    Default Re: Low horsepower planing boats?

    Skaraborgcraft, Brian (Keyhaven) and Hwyl (Gareth) are clearly all invited members of the Ankle deep appreciation society - and thanks to Brian for pointing out that the very boat is over at the Classic Boat Museam on the isle of Wight - now if only I had a small and fast power boat to get over there - maybe a day out on the red Funnel ferry is in prospect or a late season sail before the first comes ashore for winter.

    even Doubting Duncan S has succumbed to the Ankle deep charms, and you're right I spend far to much time day dreaming, but long ago I trained in engineering design and there's a fine line between fantasy and lateral thinking. sadly Portsmouth dockyards and all, there is sadly all too little connection to tradition boats around here, maybe one of the strongest links goes back via the SCOW fleet (examples of which are sailed by Brian and being restored by myself), I was fortunate to sail on Wonder (and help caulk her seams) one of the very few original Itchen ferry's from the area. I can remember in the very early 60's clinker motor boats being launched off the beach on the Isle of Wight, all long gone.

    Point Comfort looks like an interesting boat, forgive me for saying a bigger Flint and she looks very nice. I would avoid the centre console at all costs, why go to all that trouble when a long stick will do the job just fine (tiller)? The "somewhat sheltered waters" is a slight concern - but that's a very subjected description and is a phrase you might apply to the solent. Intuitively she looks like a boat that would work.

    I've thought about the simmonds sea skiff, all the accounts I've read are very positive and pipefitter's are no less so, but it doesn't stir my heart, bit like choosing the sensible car when you really wanted an old convertible Mustang.

    The Atkin Slipby is a nice boat which harks back to old power boats, you can see a connection to this old steam launch which used to ply the solent waters nearly 100 years ago http://bursledonblog.blogspot.co.uk/...at-kariat.html - I read an account of a similar petrol powered boat doing a summer circuit around the island including stopping for lunch - sounded very civilised and a good sea boat - that narrow easily driven hull form again.

    Tom came along with the freighter canoe, which brings be back full circle - presumably these were used on the great lakes and having seen lake huron first hand I have to believe boats like this are able - but it's that lack of first hand knowledge, would i risk taking family out in one - well not without a lot more experience, but maybe the only way to find out is build one and play with it a bit to see what it's capable of. Wouldn't be too much money and there are lots of safe places to use it. when i built my semi dory skiff it was partly to find out how well it would perform and the results continue to impress me.

    As Douglas said a rib would be the safe sensible option, but I could also take the ferry..

  17. #52
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    Default Re: Low horsepower planing boats?

    The freighter canoes are apparently very able,be it in experienced hands. I came close to building a Selway Motor canoe as it was dead easy to car top, and with just 2 people and a 2.5 outboard, fast enough to be able to cover some distance inside the islands.....i didnt build it because i didnt rate its ability in what can become a very rough lake. Funnily enough, i looked at the Bolger Sea Hawk as an alternative and forgot about it, ended up building a Michalak family skiff instead which does not motor so well, but a fun sailer and camp/beach boat.

    I dont know much about the handling characteristics of a boat that has the Hylan type submerged fore-foot, it was an interesting link and the information on loading, but isnt that the kind of bow that can dig in and trip running down waves? or am i being overly cautious?

    Another that sprang to mind, Pete Cullers simple work boat, Long John, 21ft



    Theres probably a thread on here somewhere. Adaptable all round boat with emergency or down wind sail, though flat bottom and maybe too much like a Simmons look (lapstrake sides) for your taste? Cheers

    EDIT: there used to be a short clip on utube of a long john under power.May still be there....somewhere.
    Last edited by skaraborgcraft; 10-17-2012 at 04:30 PM.

  18. #53
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    Freighter canoes are very stable and efficient. I can stand on the rail(180lbs) at midships and dive off. Best of all, I can easilly climb back in. Here's one loaded with 10 days worth of gear for 4 guys for crossing 6 miles of open lake. It can be a little bit of a wet ride if it's really blowing.

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    Default Re: Low horsepower planing boats?

    These freighter canoes really intrigue me particularly the smaller ones like the Little Laker and Selway Fishers 15ft motor canoe , light enough to cartop, but able handle the inshore coastal island trips and some of the large lakes when it blows up, maybe not comfortable when the wind picks up but something that will get you home given a little common sense. Easy to drag up a beach for camping and not too painful for the occasional short portage, 1hp should get you moving at 6mph in most conditions a 5 gallon tank of gas should take you several hundred miles, clamp on one of those monster 4hp motors and you should still get over a hundred miles from that tank at planning speeds and a moderate load.
    Like the OP I come from a sailing background and have very little experience with small power boats so maybe I'm dreaming, I'm a bit nervous of the narrow beam and low free board but I've seen boats like these miles offshore in the Caribbean and Pacific, given enough built in flotation I'd try it at least once.
    It would be really interesting to hear more from some one that has practical experience with these type of craft when the wind picks up.

  21. #56
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    From my experience freighters seem to be able to handle a wide variety of conditions from open ocean to wind swept bays, such as the mouth of the Chesapeake Bay(14 mi crossing), to fast large rivers, both up and down. I'm not sure if some of the designs that carry the "freighter canoe" label are as able as more traditional designs such as Tim's or say some of the wood and canvas boats still produced in NA.

  22. #57
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    Default Re: Low horsepower planing boats?

    Look also at Tom Hill's Pamet Blue boat (http://www.thomasjhillboatdesigns.co...blue_boat.html).
    Since it weighs only 91 pounds, it is very easily driven by a low HP motor, and could be rowed if necessary.
    For your purposes you might want to deck the entire bow, and put in big buoyancy bags for safety.

  23. #58
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    Default Re: Low horsepower planing boats?

    Nice wee boat!

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    I really like those freighter canoes, there was an article in WB a while back about a couple who made a significant voyage along the McKenzie river, there's a piece where they recount having to pull off to a cove as the winds were blowing straight down the river kicking up very steep waves - I remember at the time thinking the conditions sounded all too familiar and that the freighter boats were clearly fit for purpose.

    There's a great similarity from where I came into this tread, I mentioed Flink, but also the Rob White skiffs which to my eye have a very similar hull form to the freighters Apologies I can't post an image but worth having a look at the link. http://www.robbwhite.com/photos/index.htm jpeg's 020 and 021

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    Default Re: Low horsepower planing boats?

    Dont you think the freighter style has too much of a flat bottom? I dont think there is a mass of difference from the Atkin boat that you thought may pound itself to bits! Fisher has a 20ft double ended canoe called freight, and that could possibly have the end lopped off if you want planing performance,it has ,i think, a good hull shape. Pauls happy to discuss such butchery to his designs.




    or leave as is, put a planing skirt around the aft end and put the motor in a well?

  26. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by skaraborgcraft View Post
    Dont you think the freighter style has too much of a flat bottom? I dont think there is a mass of difference from the Atkin boat that you thought may pound itself to bits! Fisher has a 20ft double ended canoe called freight, and that could possibly have the end lopped off if you want planing performance,it has ,i think, a good hull shape. Pauls happy to discuss such butchery to his designs.
    or leave as is, put a planing skirt around the aft end and put the motor in a well?
    Lopping the end off a canoe and adding a motor does not work very well. A small outboard mounted on a bracket is a better approach. Either way, you will not end up with a boat that can go at high speed.
    Tim Marchetti
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  27. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sailing Dreams View Post
    I really like those freighter canoes, there was an article in WB a while back about a couple who made a significant voyage along the McKenzie river, there's a piece where they recount having to pull off to a cove as the winds were blowing straight down the river kicking up very steep waves - I remember at the time thinking the conditions sounded all too familiar and that the freighter boats were clearly fit for purpose.

    There's a great similarity from where I came into this tread, I mentioed Flink, but also the Rob White skiffs which to my eye have a very similar hull form to the freighters Apologies I can't post an image but worth having a look at the link. http://www.robbwhite.com/photos/index.htm jpeg's 020 and 021
    A true freighter canoe is a bit bigger than Rob White's skiff and Flint
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  28. #63
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    Default Re: Low horsepower planing boats?

    Tom, Nice lines and while you're right the Rob white boats are 16 ft I believe there does seem to be a lot of similarity of shape/ never having been down to the gulf of mexico I don't know what the conditions are like, but I've seen Lake Huron when it was blowing a summer breeze not something I would especially want to get caught out in. http://bursledonblog.blogspot.co.uk/...-on-lakes.html

    That said and while i don't know the background to this story, I've looked at Ungava bay on google earth and to go that far with 6 kids speaks of either foolhardiness or a sound boat.

    Skaraborgcraft - it was clarkey who mentioned pounding on the Atkins boat, for my part I just don't get flat bottomed boats not good reason I just like curves better


    http://www.vancouversun.com/news/Sea...406/story.html

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    Default Re: Low horsepower planing boats?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sailing Dreams View Post
    That said and while i don't know the background to this story, I've looked at Ungava bay on google earth and to go that far with 6 kids speaks of either foolhardiness or a sound boat.
    It's not uncommon for many of the freighters in that part of the country to be 24-26 feet in length.

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    Default Re: Low horsepower planing boats?

    Quote Originally Posted by bogdog View Post
    It's not uncommon for many of the freighters in that part of the country to be 24-26 feet in length.

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    Default Re: Low horsepower planing boats?

    Turns out it was only a 7 meter boat. Even so, if it was a Nor-west Labrador it could easily carry more than 2000kg.

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    Default Re: Low horsepower planing boats?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tim Marchetti View Post
    Lopping the end off a canoe and adding a motor does not work very well. A small outboard mounted on a bracket is a better approach. Either way, you will not end up with a boat that can go at high speed.
    It depends where its lopped off.....say around midships. The front half of a freighter looks just the same as the fisher freighter. My point being the lines can be adjusted, just as they have been in the other freighter.I agree on the standard boat a bracket would work,and it wont be fast.

    I hear you on the flat surfaces,and apologies for getting Clarkeys comment mixed with your observations. Curves it is then......have you seen those curves on Ankle Deep??

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    Default Re: Low horsepower planing boats?

    Quote Originally Posted by keyhavenpotterer View Post
    To quote from Mr Hylan after testing the boat

    "Originally this boat was supposed to have a center console, but the customer changed his mind. So i think we already have drawings done for a center console version. This is a sweet boat! I took this one for an evening cruise last night. She will go a little over 20kts with a 20hp, and with the V sections forward it's a very soft ride... no pounding even in a chop."



    http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?s...3928637&type=1
    Wow, that is just gorgeous. I'd love to have one back home in Charleston, SC to cruise around the Lowcountry. Someday. Would it perform anything like the Simmons in a decent chop?

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    Quote Originally Posted by skaraborgcraft View Post
    I dont know much about the handling characteristics of a boat that has the Hylan type submerged fore-foot, it was an interesting link and the information on loading, but isnt that the kind of bow that can dig in and trip running down waves? or am i being overly cautious?
    Downloading the study plans for the Hylan skiff gives more info and a picture of her running on the plane with two aboard and interestingly the forefoot is just clear of the water.

    http://www.dhylanboats.com/plans/poi...tudy_plans.pdf

    Brian

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    Default Re: Low horsepower planing boats?

    I did notice that Brian, that the forefoot was clear at speed, but what if you have to slow down in steep following seas? I have got my timing wrong before on the Brambles Bank and the seas can get nasty,and thats not the time that i think you would be planing with a bows up attitude,then again,maybe that IS the best time? Im not a planing motorboat type except as past crew taking owner and guests ashore in r.i.b. and Boton Whaler/Flethcher type speed boats. I have never owned anything like this,hence the question. Looks to be a nice runner in smooth water though, i like it. Cheers

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