We built this by ourselves

[Norman Bernstein]

Well, not quite. Prepare for a bit of irony:

GOP Convention Held in Stadium Built With Public Funds

The Tuesday night session at the Republican National Convention will be themed "We Built This!" in a dual effort to celebrate American entrepreneurship and attack President Obama's infamous comments to business owners.

However, the Daily Dolt reports the stadium was financed primarily with public funds. "The Tampa Bay Times Forum arena, which houses the Tampa Bay Lightning, was built in 1996 as the 'Ice Palace' with 62% government funds. The total budget for the project was $139 million, of which public money accounted for $86 million and team money accounted for $53 million."

[Waddie]

Norman Bernstein; 62% government funds

And where did the government get that 62% - from taxes on business, of course. Government is simply a middle man, sometimes a good one to have, but all revenues originate from private sector business activity.

regards,
Waddie

[Norman Bernstein]

And where did the government get that 62% - from taxes on business, of course.

Actually, the majority of municipal revenue comes from individuals, NOT from business. Look it up.

Government is simply a middle man, sometimes a good one to have, but all revenues originate from private sector business activity.

Well, yeah... rather obliquely, though. If you want to count all the salaries of all the taxpayers who were individually taxed, and whose tax contributions went back, in a large part, to benefit yet other businesses (like the Tampa Bay Lightning), then you might be right.

But the truth of the matter is that public tax revenues went to support a private business (the team) on the idea that the presence of the team would generate more jobs and business activity, and hence, more tax revenues.

Sometimes deals like that are good... but sometimes, thery're bad.

However, the takeaway is this: The Tampa Bay Lightning DID NOT 'build thier business by themselves'.... they DEPENDED on getting tax revenue to pay for part of their stadium....

...and like many other stadiums, they would NOT have located in Tampa if they DIDN'T get that money.

When Bob Kraft planned to rebuild the stadium in Foxboro, MA for the Patriots, his first concern was how much money he could squeeze from the state, in terms of necessary infrastructure improvements. When the talks reached an impasse, Kraft began to negotiate with Hartford, CT.... the extortion worked quite well, and MA caved in, rebuilding Route 1 in Foxboro to accomodate the stadium.

Kraft didn't build it himself, by a long shot.

[Waddie]

Norman Bernstein; Actually, the majority of municipal revenue comes from individuals, NOT from business. Look it up.

And where, pray tell, do the individuals get the money for that municipal revenue? Oh, right, from having jobs at private sector businesses. Democrats should be big time business boosters, instead of trying to kill the goose that lays the golden egg...

regards,
Waddie

[Norman Bernstein]

And where, pray tell, do the individuals get the money for that municipal revenue? Oh, right, from having jobs at private sector businesses. Democrats should be big time business boosters, instead of trying to kill the goose that lays the golden egg...

No one is trying to 'kill the goose that lays the golden egg'.

Some of us just don't think that the legitimate tax revenues raised as a consequence of those businesses deserve to be preferentially handed BACK to those businesses. If you actually believed in the free market, open competition economy, then why would you endorse the idea of using tax revenues to pay for football stadiums? Shouldn't the team be capable of building it themselves?

If you think that's a good idea, then why doesn't the state invest in ANY kind of business.... like the guy who wants to open the local convenience store? his business will generate tax revenue, and provide employment.... not as much as a football stadium, but then again, he doesn't need nearly as much money....

...but the states don't do that. The tax revenues go to very wealthy sports team owners, real estate developers, etc.......

This is the power of private enterprise?

[Waddie]

Norman Bernstein; Some of us just don't think that the legitimate tax revenues raised as a consequence of those businesses deserve to be preferentially handed BACK to those businesses.

So we're shifting from the general to the specific... are you arguing for free market capitalism - free of government involvement?

handed BACK to those businesses; that's a political game that's played out on all levels of government by both parties. Handing out favors for , usually, political gain. You want free market capitalism, then make government less of a "player".

regards,
Waddie

[MiddleAgesMan]

Waddie's argument is about as valid as this one--the stadium was built with 100% government money because we count on the government to print/back/value all dollars.

Sheesh.

[mikefrommontana]

And where did the government get that 62% - from taxes on business, of course. Government is simply a middle man, sometimes a good one to have, but all revenues originate from private sector business activity.

regards,
Waddie

And without individuals making purchases (ie: labor) ALL businesses would fail.

[Ian McColgin]

By Waddie's strange logic, there would be no such thing as "socialism" since any government owned and run business would owe its cash to individuals. But wait . . . the gummit prints the money so they own it all anyway. There's no such thing as private business.

[Waddie]

And without individuals making purchases (ie: labor) ALL businesses would fail.

And labor would have no jobs without business and therefore no money to make those purchases.

regards,
Waddie

[Waddie]

By Waddie's strange logic, there would be no such thing as "socialism" since any government owned and run business would owe its cash to individuals. But wait . . . the gummit prints the money so they own it all anyway. There's no such thing as private business.

There's no such thing as private business ; talk about your strange logic. Sounds like something Obama might say....maybe he has.....

regards,
Waddie

[wardd]

And where, pray tell, do the individuals get the money for that municipal revenue? Oh, right, from having jobs at private sector businesses. Democrats should be big time business boosters, instead of trying to kill the goose that lays the golden egg...

regards,
Waddie

the original one celled organism doesn't get enough credit after all everything stems from that

how is the stock market doing?

[Greg Nolan]

All of which is to say that nobody and no business makes it alone, on their own -- can’t have business without labor, and can’t have employment without capital, and you can’t have public services without taxes. It’s all interconnected, and anyone who thinks otherwise is a fool, and anyone who thinks they made money or built a business or did anything substantial “on their own” is a complete idiot.

[BrianW]

Without the people, there is no government.

The people are the source of all revenue.

That alone tells me which comes first, the government, or the people.

[Ian McColgin]

Waddie, reinitialize your ironymeter.

[switters]

No more competition! Guaranteed equality of results.

[John Smith]

In the big picture this entire arguement, IMO, is ludicrous. I've gone through how the car brought the need for roads, which the government build with taxpayer money that came from taxing wealth created by the private sector. In doing this great new businesses and jobs came into being.

The Wright brothers created an airplane. As it improved, airports were needed. They were provided by the goverment. Look at how many people fly now and the many businesses that are in business because of this.

The government took taxes from the weatlh created by the private sector and engaged in a space program. Mulit-billion dollar private industries exist today because of that space program.

I conclude the problem is that people seem to think we need a private sector OR a government. Fact is they both need each other and we need both. When they work as a team we do great. When they don't work as a team, we don't do so well.

To my mind it's a simple fact of life. For the government to do its job well it needs to be adequately funded, which means taxing the wealth created by the private sector. If these taxes are not adequate to fund the government we need, eventually it costs all of us.

I don't want the government building my home. I do want the government to insure that home is built to certain standards. I don't want the government making food, but I want it to insure the food is safe to eat.

I find it frustrating that those who preach "smaller, less intrusive" government are the ones putting the government squarely between a woman and her doctor. Requiring medically needless ultrasounds and requiring the woman to pay for them, is about as intrusive a government as I can imagine. Prohibition was a bad idea. We repealed it. We repeat it with our war on drugs, which is wasting a ton of money and contributing a great deal to the violence.

The government is actually a great customer for private industry. Every vehicle they use is purchased from a private car maker. All the stationary products they use come from private industry. Research they fund leads to private companies having new products.

This is not an either or proposition. Nor is it about the size of government. It is about the function of government. Helping develop/educate new engineers and scientists seems like a good investment. Providing the best possible infrastructure so businesses can function more efficiently seems a good idea. Of course, I think taking health insurance off the backs of those private industries would be a great idea.

We have a conservative ideology today that absolutely baffles me. They hate single moms and kids on welfare, so they pass laws that cannot help but lead to more of both. They don't want the government between the doctor and his patient, but they pass laws putting the government in that place.

The government that governs best is the government that governs wisely.

[Osborne Russell]

Government is simply a middle man, sometimes a good one to have . . .

Government by definition is something that thwarts someone's will, and that's a good thing. You're making progress.

but all revenues originate from private sector business activity.

Which could not be carried out without some form of organized physical force to thwart the will of some individuals.

[Greg Nolan]

Once again, Ben Franklin:

"All the property that is necessary to a Man, for the Conservation of the Individual and the Propagation of the Species, is his natural Right, which none can justly deprive him of: But all Property superfluous to such purposes is the Property of the Publick, who, by their Laws, have created it, and who may therefore by other laws dispose of it, whenever the Welfare of the Publick shall demand such Disposition. He that does not like civil Society on these Terms, let him retire and live among Savages. He can have no right to the benefits of Society, who will not pay his Club towards the Support of it."

Letter to Robert Morris, December 25, 1783

[PhaseLockedLoop]

The government can spend taxpayers' money to build and/or support things that do not depend on short-term profit. It usually employs private industry to do so. Isn't this simple?

[wardd]

the private sector creates potential wealth, the government provides the medium of exchange to make it possible to function

taxes make this possible and control the economy

[Cuyahoga Chuck]

And where did the government get that 62% - from taxes on business, of course. Government is simply a middle man, sometimes a good one to have, but all revenues originate from private sector business activity.

regards,
Waddie

BUT, in many instances THE GOVERNMENT is the only entity that has the capability to produce what is necessary. We now have private comanies going into space but they wouldn't be going anywhere without the knowlege assembled by 70 years of government research and developement into that science.
Transportation facilities that cross the boundries of numerous states were the product of the federal govrnment because only it had the muscle and the authority to pull it off. Who's trying to get those barges moving on the Mississippi? What agency coordinates the fighting of forest fires now ravaging our country?
Picturing the government as nothing but a box office that takes in money and hands out chits is kind of childish, no?

[ccmanuals]

I guess it would be easy to miss the point of the thread if you throw alot of extra stuff at it.

The point being:

The Tampa Bay Lightning DID NOT 'build their business by themselves'.... they DEPENDED on getting tax revenue to pay for part of their stadium....

[leikec]

I think I'll go to Ballpark Village today and do some shopping....

Here in St. Louis we can ask the question---"did you build that?"

Jeff C

[BrianW]

I guess it would be easy to miss the point of the thread if you throw alot of extra stuff at it.

The point being:

The Tampa Bay Lightning DID NOT 'build their business by themselves'.... they DEPENDED on getting tax revenue to pay for part of their stadium....

Weird.

I thought this was about the GOP, not the TB Lighting.

Where was that thread about the GOP?...

[leikec]

Weird.

I thought this was about the GOP, not the TB Lighting.

Where was that thread about the GOP?...

Jeff C

[Mrleft8]

If corporations are people, then of course "I built this" or "I made this" is true, but by the same principle, then a corporation could be said to have not made, or built something, and in theory be held responsible for negligence for anything that occurs in the place or lack of place that wasn't there when something didn't happen....
I'm not sure I want to not be there when that doesn't happen.....

[Norman Bernstein]

If corporations are people, then of course "I built this" or "I made this" is true, but by the same principle, then a corporation could be said to have not made, or built something, and in theory be held responsible for negligence for anything that occurs in the place or lack of place that wasn't there when something didn't happen....
I'm not sure I want to not be there when that doesn't happen.....

I don't think I'd want to be close you you, Doug, when you try to rephrase that a bit more clearly. Warn me first, and I'll duck

[Mrleft8]

I don't think I'd want to be close you you, Doug, when you try to rephrase that a bit more clearly. Warn me first, and I'll duck

I was just practicing my pretzel logic in case I need to talk to any republicans in the next week or so.....

[Curtism]

Speaking of tops, Tampa is a city which is either at or near the top ranked major cities in terms of sky-high unemployment, hovering around 14.9%, tops in the number of homless children, adults and veterans, number of businesses that either folded or moved out of our "business friendly" state and they rank quite high in foreclosures of commercial properties and private dwellings.

Norman's right . . . having the RNC here drips with irony. They indeed built this mess and, sadly, they aren't coming here to own it, but rather, fully intending to make things worse by blocking whole lanes of bridges, closing off major expressways entirely, eliminating vehicle access to many downtown businesses, closing government admin buildings for the entire week, making access to some area hospitals difficult to impossible, shutting down small municipal airfeilds etc . . .

One of the organizers of the convention mentioned in an interview the other day that they are delighted to be coming here to an important battleground state where support of the Republican party is flagging. Gee, imagine that. As if spending millions of taxpayers dollars for their bash is going to magically change public opinion of them. Well, he may be right but the opinion might not change in the direction he's hoping it will.

[ccmanuals]

John, my sister works on the Tampa side of the Courtney Campbell and she is worried about being able to get to work.

[Curtism]

Tom, she should be sure to leave some extra time in the mornings as, according to the local paper, many of the party goers will be staying in motels and resorts along the Gulf Beaches from Tarpon Springs to Clearwater and taking tour busses to Tampa via the Courtney Campbell. Luckily her work area is a couple miles outside the lockdown zone so, unlike people who work within the zone, the ones whose businesses are going to be open that is, she won't have to hike into work on foot.

And I'm not sure where you picked up the name John . . . but feel free to call me Curtis, Curt or that special name my mom uses on certain occaisions. (You'll have to guess on that last one. )

[ccmanuals]

You gotta love Tampa.



The GOP’s not-so-friendly welcome sign from neighborhood Democrats

• The GOP’s not-so-friendly welcome sign from neighborhood DemocratsMore>>

TAMPA (FOX 13) - It's the drive down I-275 every delegate will travel to get from the airport to downtown.
When they do, they'll see a full-size billboard welcoming them to Tampa.
Or is it?
"This doesn't speak at all for unity and the things that we want to do, and the way that we want to represent Tampa," said Robin Vosler of Adonai Communications.
The real message is clear.
The billboard states Tampa "is a city where the mayor and all council members are Democrats."
It's not exactly the welcome wagon for the GOP.
"It just really undermines all the efforts from Democrats and Republicans that has been from the residents of this city to put this on," Vosler said.
That's not true, according to the co-founder of Ruth's List Florida.
That's the pro-women-in-politics group that paid for the ad.
"It was done, I think, politely and civically, and we certainly didn't mean anything mean spirited but rather just a statement of fact," said Ellis Robinson.
It is a fact Tampa's top political spot is held by a democrat who happens to be one of the biggest cheerleaders in supporting the bipartisan benefit of hosting the RNC.
"This our coming out party, we are going to make Tampa proud, and we are going to shine," said Mayor Bob Buckhorn on Aug. 10.
The sign, sure to be seen by thousands, may not be a bright spot for Republicans, but many say all is fair in politics.
"We felt that it was important that they realize they are clearly in the largest swing state in the country and one good way to do that is to recognize the Democrats in Tampa are the ones in charge of making Tampa a wonderful town," Robinson said.
"There are plenty of democrats helping put this thing together," said Mike Hammonds.
He's a Democrat doing his part by actually volunteering at the Republican Convention.
"I want to showcase what Tampa has to offer and help establish something that maybe people are visiting us have never experienced before," he said.

[Ted Hoppe]

As Tampa prepares to build excitement. Republicans are busy securing themselves as the only whores in town. Turns out only the Republicans can ask, "What do you want?" in Tampa.


http://www.ksdk.com/news/article/333939/28/Tampa-cracking-down-on-prostitution-before-RNC

[Norman Bernstein]

I was just practicing my pretzel logic in case I need to talk to any republicans in the next week or so.....

Good idea... pretzel logic will serve you quite well, when talking to them... they'll be entirely comfdortable with it!

[hanleyclifford]

As Tampa prepares to build excitement. Republicans are busy securing themselves as the only whores in town. Turns out only the Republicans can ask, "What do you want?" in Tampa.


http://www.ksdk.com/news/article/333939/28/Tampa-cracking-down-on-prostitution-before-RNC

It might be a mistake to crack down on prostitution in Tampa. The Democrat Mayor and city counselors must have a big democratic body politic enjoying those whores...the crackdown could backfire.

[Norman Bernstein]

It might be a mistake to crack down on prostitution in Tampa. The Democrat Mayor and city counselors must have a big democratic body politic enjoying those whores...the crackdown could backfire.

It might all be a waste of time, since Republicans would NEVER consort with prostitutes....... they are all upstanding undividuals with very strong family values!

[hanleyclifford]

It might all be a waste of time, since Republicans would NEVER consort with prostitutes....... they are all upstanding undividuals with very strong family values!

OTOH, maybe Ted is right; the Republicans are the whores; now Tampa is creating a labor dispute.

[Curtism]

If you've every seen Kennedy Blvd. you'd know the Secret Service guys would be ill advised to try and stiff (if I can say that) one the ho's in Tampa. Some areas of town may well resemble parts of Columbia but keep in mind, Florida is a right to work state and we whores generally take our trickle down quite seriously.

[Ted Hoppe]

Lucky for all involved. It is their republican dream - free enterprise, small businesses actively participating in a right to work state. the real question is whether the Republicans will use government funded contaception or will they force the small business owners to fork out for preventive care and/or prescriptive medical treatments afterwards?

[TomF]

Once again, Ben Franklin:

"All the property that is necessary to a Man, for the Conservation of the Individual and the Propagation of the Species, is his natural Right, which none can justly deprive him of: But all Property superfluous to such purposes is the Property of the Publick, who, by their Laws, have created it, and who may therefore by other laws dispose of it, whenever the Welfare of the Publick shall demand such Disposition. He that does not like civil Society on these Terms, let him retire and live among Savages. He can have no right to the benefits of Society, who will not pay his Club towards the Support of it."

Letter to Robert Morris, December 25, 1783

Doncha hope that somebody doesn't sift through the forum or your e-mail one day, using what they find to make arguments a couple of centuries hence? One wonders how ol' Ben would feel, knowing that his private correspondance was being used in ways he hadn't intended.

[BrianW]

Really?

Complaining because a convention is in town?

Don't conventions usually bring money to a local economy? Some towns, like Las Vegas thrive on conventions. I take it the DNC is going to be completely transparent. Traffic flow will improve, the birds will sing all day long, and no one will be inconvenienced.

The ObamaGod would never smite his flock.

[ccmanuals]

who's complaining?

[BrianW]

who's complaining?

Post #30, this thread.

[Curtism]

Actually, the complaining starts in post #25.

#30 was an attempt to comply to the complaint, maybe add a little local perspective, and what do my efforts render?

More complaints.

[varadero]

By Waddie's strange logic, there would be no such thing as "socialism" since any government owned and run business would owe its cash to individuals. But wait . . . the gummit prints the money so they own it all anyway. There's no such thing as private business.

The Government does not print the money, The federal reserve does. And you do know that they are about as Federal as Fedex.

[Paul Girouard]

Talk about a circular argument, which came first the chicken or the egg type of thing. Obama was wrong, again! But Norm and his group can attempt to spin it , and will till the cows some home! Carry on!

[Donn]

..which can fist the chicken..

[John Smith]

Talk about a circular argument, which can fist the chicken or the egg type of thing. Obama was wrong, again! But Norm and his group can attempt to spin it , and will till the cows some home! Carry on!

This is your problem. Obama mispoke and by taking the mispeak out of context it makes it look like he said something else. Anyone who is honest and hears his words in context readily sees he's talking about the roads and bridges.

To equate this with a congressman on the Science Committee telling us a woman's body shuts down the pregnancy operation when raped is simply ludicrous. Akin did not mispeak. This is what he believes.

As to Obama's words, let me simply ask this question: Do you believe a busness NEEDS things the government provides in order to function and grow. If the answer is "Yes!" we are on the same page and it's time to move on.

[John Smith]

Would we have professional sports without taxpayers building stadiums?

http://news.stanford.edu/pr/97/971218stadiums.html