Jib Club ?

[timo4352]

OK, I'm probably going to show my ignorance here.
On this drawing of Parker's Terrapin - how would you describe the jib/club type setup?
I've seen the balance(d) jib, and I'm thinking a club would more be laced to the foot of the jib. This looks different than either to me.
The setup interests me. Should make the sail more useful downwind - no? Maybe it is more commonplace than I think, but I don't recall seeing it. Maybe used on larger yachts? I don't know.
Anyone care to educate me on this? Got any pros and cons for the rig? Why don't you see it more? I didn't see anything on Parker's site describing it.
Thanks, Tim

[Peerie Maa]

In general they have the advantage of making the jib self tending with only one sheet, and allows the sail to fill off the wind whilst flattening on the wind. However the geometry of that looks wrong, as it looks as though it will not be possible to lower the bottom part of the sail when furling.

[timo4352]

I'm guessing there is a type of universal joint at the front , bowsprit end?

[Eddiebou]

I don't understand that, either.

[Peerie Maa]

I'm guessing there is a type of universal joint at the front , bowsprit end?

Yes. Here is one from another thread

[nautiguy]

I have a similar setup on Sans Souci. The tack of the jib is attached to the stem fitting with a pendant that is approximately a foot long, thus the space between the tack and the stem.
The only problem I have with this is keeping the clew tight to boom which I solved with running another pendant from the clew through an eye and then to a small cleat on the bottom of the boom. The single sheet is attached separately to the boom and led aft.

[timo4352]

So what do you think, Norm
Is this setup preferable to you over a standard jib setup without the boom?
I get the self tacking feature. Maybe that's the whole idea?

[wizbang 13]

That is a screwey drawn boat , what is up with the main halyards? not to mention the main sheet.
The staysl will have a lacing to the stay, one third , maybe half way up , to allow the luff to move aft as it is dropped. otherwise , yes, it could not come all the way down.

[Roger Cumming]

New England fishing boats had their jib booms rigged on a slide on the bowsprit. It allowed adjustment of the draft of the sail. I adapted an old mainsail clew outhaul track and fitting on my old boat. It worked very well although it requires an additional line to adjust. The sail must be loose-footed for this arrangement but it allows precise adjustment of the sail's shape.

[nautiguy]

It's great for short handed sailing. Not quite as efficient going to windward, but not having to hand tack the jib means that Karleen and I can easily handle the ketch rig and go anywhere.
Since the jib is not laced to the club, when we race (not often) we detach the clew from the club and tie in sheets that allow us to point up a little better and set a better shape.
All in all, I like this setup.

[timo4352]

Thanks Norm
Sounds like a track at the front would benefit adjustments.
Considering Wizbang 13's comment, I wonder if we should be calling it a staysail instead of a jib? and maybe a boom instead of a club too?

[nautiguy]

Usually, a stays'l is set inside the jib so you have a double headsail rig similar to a cutter. The stays'l sets on an inner forestay and on a club. The jib is hanked to the outer forestay and double sheeted.
Our previous boat was cutter rigged and we found the best foresail set was stays'l when hard on the wind, jib when running, and both on any point of reaching. With the single headsail ketch rig we now have the single jib is adequate and easy to sail although I have toyed with the idea of mounting an inner forestay and a stays'l. So far my thinking is that this will be an unneeded complication.

[John B]

Its called a club cos thats what it does to you if you don't keep an eyeball on it.

[Jay Greer]

The drawing leaves a bit to be desired from a practical point of view. I would prefer the jib to tack closer to the forestay terminus. In addition, the jib will need to attach to the forestay by the use of a jackline, for the first few feet up, in order to allow it to be furled without drastic slacking of the out haul. Rigs of this type are, often known as "widow makers" as an unexpected gybe can sweep the foredeck clear of crew.
Jay

[Ian McColgin]

The drawing is perfectly rational and practical and not at all uncommon.

The jib can be roller-furled, being pulled out on the club by an outhaul.

The advantage of setting the pivot of the club back from the tack of the jib is that as the sail is eased off the wind, the geometry lets the foot go a bit free and increases the draft of the sail.

[Todd Bradshaw]

If you get the particulars all figured right, it works like the forestaysail here. The clew will swing outboard somewhat about half-way through the furl, but will then come back in and end up standing vertically at the clew corner. Depending on the configuration, the forward end of the club may also be connected to a short, upright pedestal.

[Tom Hunter]

Pro: Its good, for all the reason mentioned above

Cons: I'm not really aware of any in boats with larger mains and small fore triangles, except in highly competitive racing situations.

I think the main reason you don't see it more often is the move towards boats with large forsails and smaller mains. Once the jib, genoa or what have you starts tailing aft of the mast you can't use a club anymore.

[John B]

Yeah, I rigged a self tending staysail on Waione with a club or boom or whatever you want to call it and it was great. It needed a jackstay between the bottom few hanks for all the reasons mentioned above . Worked really well and paid giant dividends as far as I was concerned. It was things like that which allowed us to cruise easily with 2 up despite her 1100 odd square feet of on the wind sail area on a 31 ft waterline.
The reason people don't have them is simply the overlap and free area. Usually jib area is only counted as the J measurement in PHRF handicapping so anything else is unmeasured in a practical sense.
If you work the other way around and get your area right then it doesn't matter eh.
Hanse as a modern brand generally have non overlapping self tacking jibs( or at least the ones that are imported here). To preserve the utility of that they prohibit genoas for class racing and it seems to be quite a success for them.

Despite my 'club' comment I never had a widowmaker issue, but then I did always keep a wary eye out .

[wizbang 13]

If you get the particulars all figured right, it works like the forestaysail here. The clew will swing outboard somewhat about half-way through the furl, but will then come back in and end up standing vertically at the clew corner. Depending on the configuration, the forward end of the club may also be connected to a short, upright pedestal.

that is too cool ! I never considered anything like that , to have the geometry worked out that the boom meets the furled clew!

[John B]

Good way of getting rid of the ' spinnaker' pole on the jib/ genoa when you're wing and wing as well. Makes life very easy taking it off a furled jib rather than a loaded one.

[Jay Greer]

The drawing is perfectly rational and practical and not at all uncommon.

The jib can be roller-furled, being pulled out on the club by an outhaul.

The advantage of setting the pivot of the club back from the tack of the jib is that as the sail is eased off the wind, the geometry lets the foot go a bit free and increases the draft of the sail.

Sorry Ian we usually concure. To my eye, the jib is both ugly and impractical! It has nothing to do with the pivot point of the club as they are often set back a bit for just the purpose you describe. There is nothing to hint that the head sail is intended to be roller reefed other than that odd item on the head stay under the tack. It it is, then the tack should definitely be set lower in order to gain the greatest amount of luff length possible. Personaly, I hate roller reefing head sails unless the rig is not intended to be as efficient as possible under sail. I am not referring to racing sails but those that are left out on the head stay to degrade and loose shape due to improper exposure to the elements. An Asemetrical roller reefing spinnaker is an exception as it is not left out except when under use.
Jay

[wizbang 13]

... and the kooky one main halyard. How does one scandalize that gaff? The whole sail will fall away.

[Ian McColgin]

Parker's designs involve quite a bit of flexability. For example, on his web site gallery, the Terrapin of the OP size has a conventionally sheeted jib with not club. If the sail is laced to the club, the pivot point must be at the tack and obviously you'll need a jack line for the lower clips to bring the sail down. If the sail is loose footed, then it's easy to have an outhaul to slack when dousing the sail. I didn't see any of his pix showing a roller furler to the end of the club, but several of the designs show the outhaul under the club - a good idea in any event but especially what works if you chose a roller-furler.

Roller furling jibs on low aspect rigs, especially those with not much in the way of back stays, are subject to a noticable hollow (sag) in the luff which if not considered by the sailmaker results in a dreadful set. It's also very hard for such rigs to sustain a foil type roller furler - something really more suited to a highly tensioned modern rig. With boats like Parker's, the Merriman style roller furler has many advantages, including much safer striking since it comes down (and goes up) as a snake.

Every type of rig involves choises of theories of power, efficiency, ease of handling and how it all fits with the boat. A good designer, and Parker is one, make boats that are appropriatly powered for what their hulls can do.