Best minimalist-ish voyaging yacht for 2?

[Jamesh]

Hi no one has suggested a George beuhler hagar 28' built in ply and glass is as stout as anything. a small diesel of 10 hp or is would be ideal. ken Jenny is a good a boat as any to be in a storm in I'd say.

[donald branscom]

John Guzwells Trekka went around the world twice (think its still the smallest boat for multiple circumnavigation) deserves mention.



Certainly a different crack from a 'big volume' boat, but clearly capable. Plans aren't minimalist in cost though (£1200).

http://www.flickr.com/photos/l_atala...n/photostream/

Ed

Where is John Guzwells now?

[gilberj]

Smaller boats are more vulnerable to a knockdown or roll-over than larger ones. You should plan for a higher level of security. Better watertight integrity. Better self righting characteristics, and better weatherliness, ability to continue sailing under control in higher winds, and larger seas.
Cruisers, particularly heavier boats should sail conservatively. Slowing down or heaving to or riding to a sea anchor as the Pardies advocate. Lighter boats may actually be safer using their speed running off, than heaving to. Course you need sea room.
Minimum for two is purely subjective. One couple may be finein a really small boat say less than 25 feet, while another will feel squeezed insomething less than 35 feet. I'd guess 25 odd feet as a minimum for two...generally. I'd probably try to get a suitable simple traditional boat 30 to 35 feet if I could, but would not dismiss the smaller options.
Generally I would be thinking along the lines of a Colin Archer, or traditional English style cutter. I would not dismiss a light weight boat if it meets the basic seaworthiness criteria.

[skaraborgcraft]

Although i agree with the logic in the above post,there is a mass of difference in a 30-35ft working type boat and a light displacement 25footer. My point being,for a minimalist boat, look how much just the ground tackle is going to weigh for the heavy boat in comparison to the smaller. The lighter the boat,the smaller the sail area needed to drive it, less amount of weight in ground tackle and more easily propelled by sweep/scull/outboard/low hp inboard. The important issue Gilberj raised eas the importance of sound construction and good watertight hatches. A minimalist cruiser does not need the weight and carrying capacity of a heavy displacement,its uneccessary build cost and outfitting costs. Weight costs!

[PeterSibley]

Weight costs but it's wonderfully comfortable in a blow.

[Paul Pless]

Weight costs

so does lightness, which is cheaper in the extreme???

[PeterSibley]

It really depends on where you are thinking of sailing Paul, were I looking for a boat to cross the Tasman, maybe more than once I'd be looking for some weight, quite a bit actually. Light boats do it just fine but when it blows up an easy motion means less fatigue and I don't operate well when I'm really, really tired .

[robert666]

I would sooner cruise or voyage in a strongly built 25-30ft, heavy long keel workboat type than the equivilent lightweight type, even though the lightweight would be a larger, faster boat for the same cost.

I would also prioritise a gaff yawl rig for easy handling and close quarters manouverability, and the boat should be able to sail itself with the sails balenced and the tiller lashed slightly to windward. Those features would do away with the need for electronic auto pilots and an engine, however they may still be desireable depending on how and where you sail.

Robert

[Dannybb55]

This little one will go far.

[wizbang 13]

I would sooner cruise or voyage in a strongly built 25-30ft, heavy long keel workboat type than the equivilent lightweight type, even though the lightweight would be a larger, faster boat for the same cost.

I would also prioritise a gaff yawl rig for easy handling and close quarters manouverability, and the boat should be able to sail itself with the sails balenced and the tiller lashed slightly to windward. Those features would do away with the need for electronic auto pilots and an engine, however they may still be desireable depending on how and where you sail.

Robert

The lighter boat will out maneuver a long keel yawl.
Self steering does not take the place of an engine.
weight costs? I do not agree. Easy costs, simple saves. The heavy gaffer is simpler.

[Wavewacker]

Lots of fine looking designs here. The winning entry in a local plywood company's design contest back in the 1960s is this 26' "Thunderbird". Still popular here in the Puget Sound region, they are raced, cruised and voyaged.

Steve

That's what I learned to sail! Wish I had one now! I didn't realize it would make a list like this.....

[skaraborgcraft]

The lighter boat will out maneuver a long keel yawl.
Self steering does not take the place of an engine.
weight costs? I do not agree. Easy costs, simple saves. The heavy gaffer is simpler.

Weight has a cost in every department. Why have you built both your wizzbangs to absolute minimum scantlings? Is it because weight will cost you speed?

Weight in material costs, im not talking about exotic fabrics and glass, just marine grade plywood, or if your prefer the extra work a triple cold moulded hull. Not to get into an argument over the cost of basic materials,i will admit that some people can buy decent plywood at a good price where others can by good strip plank stock at possibly better prices. Depends where you are.

How is a heavy gaffer any simpler than that "thunderbird" for example?

I dont disagree that there is reatively more comfort in a heavier boat. We can both agree that a V28 for its size and weight is probably one of the best small cruising yachts designed,with regards to carrying capacity and cruise comfort. But at 8+ tons, its not minimalist. Im not sure how you can say that weight does not cost. An 8 ton venus cannot be built for the same budget as a 2 ton plywood boat, but both are able to go to the same places. I dont see that the 2 ton plywood boat will be anymore difficult to build than the heavier cruiser. Fin keels can be made of steel plate and filled with scrap iron and concrete,lightweight does not mean high tech has to be used. Again, this is a controversial subject, and without a budget being set,we can toss in all sorts of boats,as has been ,showing everyone has a difference of opinion of minimal. The OP mentioned a guitar,ipod and camera, as an example,the last V28 i saw had a couple and a child onboard and 1 years of supplies to get them from UK to NZ and 6in down on the waterline,a very basic gaff rigged boat, but again, even if built spartan and therefore minimal, that weight will cost. The old adage of more displacement = greater build cost will always stand true if you are having to purchase all the material, and not from trees in your own forest.True or not? Cheers

[wizbang 13]

Good points. No black n white answer.
My speed boats are kept light for speed , not money saving. The 200 pound Bingo cost about $3 per pound. My 12 ton boat cost fifty cents a pound ( yes, 30 years ago).
One truism that i agree with , is that the hull is only a third of the cost. Rig cost , and maintenance, is huge. gaff excels here.
If you have to purchase every thing? I lose the argument, yup. A tree from your own property can only work for a lucky few. And it can only work for certain designs. T bird is not one of them. Tbird is an amazing boat, (they are from my hometown , gig harbor).
I see Island boats all being fit out with alloy spars now, why? cuz it is cheaper. A wood spar , solid, tree, hollow, laminated, all cost more than a hurricane damaged alloy spar that has been laying in the back of a Caribbean boatyard for years. gray area.
Budget is part of who we are, not just how much money we have , but how well we can scour used stuff. How resorseful we are . I appreciate that not all folks , especially in Europe, cannot have the good pickings I have in the PNW.

[skaraborgcraft]

Total agreement. As with scavenging and finding bargains, it all becomes a bit of a moot point when at the moment, you can buy a Nordic Folkboat for around $2000, and an Albin Vega for less than $5000 (in sweden). The only reason you would build is beacuse you want to. If i could get the materials to build a V28 for the same price you could, i would build one for the hell of it, its too much boat than we need right now,but at a fair price,i would do it anyway.......just to get that boat out of my system.....20 year itch and all that.

Woodwind must be one of the most cost effective investments (if boats ever are) are that price per pound.

Anyway, this is all just boat talk, and chewing the cud with y,all is always interesting. Cheers

[McMike]

This little one will go far.

Fast too!!!

[skaraborgcraft]

Always thought this one actually looks really great when built. Avaliable with fixed keel too. 1.6 ton. Strip plank. 20ft.



Port Louis 20 from Selway Fisher.

[Chip-skiff]

The boat that popped into my mind was the Townsend Tern, a recent design by Kees Prins, built for a cruising couple. It was written up in WB Magazine's Small Boats issue 2011, p.88. It combined a traditional look with several innovations in the cabin layout and overall setup.



I don't know if Prins has a set of plans available at this point.

The cost likely exceeds what you had in mind, but there are quite a few ideas that might appeal to you. This boat would be best for coastal cruising with an occasional bluewater passage. The longer the passage, the more aptly the term "minimalist" would apply. If I were determined to pursue sustained deepwater cruising, I'd want a craft designed specifically for that.

[PeterSibley]

Something very similar,



http://www.selway-fisher.com/Yacht2024.htm

The Beaumaris 24 is one of several trailer sailers for strip planking that we have had on the drawing board recently. This particular example has accommodation which includes 3 or 4 berths, a galley and a Porta-Potti w.c., all combined with a good sized cockpit. There are 2 keel alternatives - one with a centreplate (which is kept below the cabin sole) and the other with a deeper fixed keel allowing you to install an inboard engine. The cabin is taken right out to the sides of the hull to give comfortable sitting space below. Initially the rig is based upon a simple standing lug rig set on lightweight masts and spars, but she could take other rigs - details of an alternative gaff cutter rig are included.

Computer faired mould shapes are given for strip planking the hull which has firm bilges ending in a sweet full wineglass shaped transom. LOD 23'6" (7.16m); Beam 7'6" (2.29m); Draft 2'/4'4" (0.61/1.32m) or for fixed draft version 2'6" (0.76m); Approx. weight 3220 lbs (1460 kg); Ballast 1047 lbs (475 kg); Sail Area 266 sq.ft. (24.78 sq.m). The drawings now show details for side decks and a gaff cutter rig.See the Photo Gallery page for further photos plus a drawing of the Beaumaris.

[sully75]

Would the inboard rudder on most of the older fiberglass cruisers frighten anyone? Ideally I would like an outboard rudder for repairability at sea, but it seems like all the (cheap) glass boats that would be available have inboard rudders.

Re: folkboats, I think of them as being pretty wet boats (an owner told me that once). Yes/no? They don't seem to be plentiful around here (Massachusetts).

Currently I'm still daydreaming about my Jester-ish idea. Older glass hull with a crapped out deck (have seen a number of ones for more or less free around here lately). Rip off the deck, replace with a full length flush deck, full width cabin top amidships of some sort, little foot well aft for stearing outside. Inside/outside stearing and sail trimming. Junk schooner or cat or possibly wing sail, maybe with a loose jib.

If someone wants to rip that idea up, I'd be fine with it.

[John B]

You'd make the rudder a priority to check anyway wouldn't you, plenty of people ie most, sail offshore that way.. There was a guy in a 40 something footer next door on the moorings a few years ago. They'd sailed from the carribean to NZ but halfway from Fiji, the skeg had dropped off.Bolts had sheared! That left a rudder with too light a shaft to stand up by itself so they had to drop that sea before it cracked a hole in the hull.
Isn't a folkboat a bit small for 2 extended cruising?
If I were you and serious about doing it, I'd buy a cheap glass boat and go.

[skaraborgcraft]

@ Sully. RE folkboat. Wet? depends. Hard on the wind in any kind of waves then as with any kind of boat,spray will fly. Wet as in water will flow into the cockpit?- No,at least not under normal conditions.The low freeboard will make the cockpit at more risk from breakers,but ccockpit dodgers can keep the worst of it out and offer the crew some wind/spray protection. A folkboat would suit the minimalist approach and have great sailing ability. I would rather take the extra room that an Albin Vega would provide these days.

I had friends from Norway cruise on their IF Folkboat (plastic), from Norway/Spain/Portugal/Gibraltar and last saw them in the Canary Iles. They made some fast passages(relatively). They were definately cruising in the minimalist way,but having a lot of fun. He showed me some good mainsail tuning technique, and for most part,sailed without the backstay being under much tension (the folkboat having a tensionable backstay on a rope block/tackle)

Chopping the rotten roof off a sound glass hull and decking over is not a bad idea, as long as it was executed in the right way. If thats your choice of getting the boat you want/need/can afford, then go for it.

[Jazzman]

Re the old plastic boat with a new lid, Tim Lackey does this. It is converted into a daysailer, but you could make a longer house. Just a thought.

http://www.lackeysailing.com/daysailor/

[Jazzman]

If I ever get around to building a boat like being that being discussed here, it will have heaps of separate floatation tanks built in, so that even if half the boat is staved in, it will still float.
I would rather make the boat a lifeboat, than try and get into one in the dark/rain/cold etc. (of course there will be an emergency life raft on board also).
I read a lot of the survival at sea books, and it seems to me most of the time one is better off staying with the boat, and if it can be made "unsinkable" so much the better.

[Woxbox]

If I ever get around to building a boat like being that being discussed here, it will have heaps of separate floatation tanks built in, so that even if half the boat is staved in, it will still float.

Well, that's the multihull survival mentality.

[PeterSibley]

If I ever get around to building a boat like being that being discussed here, it will have heaps of separate floatation tanks built in, so that even if half the boat is staved in, it will still float.
I would rather make the boat a lifeboat, than try and get into one in the dark/rain/cold etc. (of course there will be an emergency life raft on board also).
I read a lot of the survival at sea books, and it seems to me most of the time one is better off staying with the boat, and if it can be made "unsinkable" so much the better.

You better make it non flamable too, a friend's boat caught fire and burned 200 miles off the coat of Venezuela 2 years ago .

By pure good change he was rescued .

[sully75]

Re the old plastic boat with a new lid, Tim Lackey does this. It is converted into a daysailer, but you could make a longer house. Just a thought.

http://www.lackeysailing.com/daysailor/

Wow...that guy really goes to town. That boat is beautiful. About as beautiful as boats get. I think if I was to do it there'd be a lot more plywood and white paint involved.

[Jazzman]

Have a look at Bolero, it is VERY minimalist, but there is room down below, and not so much real wood. It is a converted Shields Class. Vert lovely.Not what would be normally called ocean capable but look at the little boat Uffa fox sailed the North Sea in with 2 mates! Bolero has a nice big cockpit (not considered good for open ocean I know)and has positive floatation.
My thinking on all this stuff is to have a small area below which has sitting head room and a comfortable bed, even if that is the same place.
Have a nice big deck that you can rig a big boom tent on for when you are docked(I always think quick erect tent as my brother is a trimmer by trade and can sew up anything I design) because after all, when you are sailing you are sitting outside in the rain/cold etc and you only need big space when docked. That's why I like that Pilot boat I suggested. Lovely big flat space for when in port.

[Jazzman]

And, yes Peter, boats do catch fire, but only if one has fire making stuff on board.
But I suppose one does need to cook sometimes.
Bad news about your friends. too big a blaze too sudden for a fire extinguisher?

[Dannybb55]

Will you be carrying a credit card to make repairs or a bag of woodworking tools? If tolls, then you can sail to any destination, if a credit card, then you are somewhat limited.
Danny Nye

[PeterSibley]

And, yes Peter, boats do catch fire, but only if one has fire making stuff on board.
But I suppose one does need to cook sometimes.
Bad news about your friends. too big a blaze too sudden for a fire extinguisher?

The fire extinguishers ( 2 ) were inadequate , the flames burst out and up when the hatch was opened and the main sail caught fire . At that point he launched his life raft. A good decision.

[Jazzman]

That would be very scary. Glad he is ok.
How did the fire start?

[Paul Pless]

http://victoria.en.craigslist.ca/boa/3241970821.html

[sully75]

sweet boat. Wrong side of the country for me.

[Paul Pless]

sweet boat. Wrong side of the country for me.

fly out
sail home

[sully75]

lose job, default on student loans...

sad but true.

In three years though, f it. I'm out of here for at least a year. There's no shortage of stupid cheap boats that need some work these days. It's pretty ridiculous. Have passed up a 31' C+C for $3000ish (needs new atomic 4 and probably standing rigging), a $4000ish Tartan 27 that doesn't need a single thing. It's crazy. But dock space and moorage and hauling hasn't gotten any cheaper. So next season I would like something to trailer cruise for a summer, and then maybe the following year I'll take the plunge for something that needs to be hauled.

[skaraborgcraft]

If you just buy a cheap boat in an area you would like to cruise or at least on the right coast you want to explore,just cruise it and sell it when your time is up....cruising does not come any cheaper. Your right,hauling and storage is the biggest expense, so avoid it if you can,or keep it to the absolute minimum. If you live and cruise for a year on a $5000 boat, then you should be happy enough just to get the air-fare back home when you are done with it.

[Hwyl]

Just wondering what you would list as your favorite minimalist(ish) voyaging yacht for 2 relatively spartan people.

Basic criteria would be
1) Able to cross oceans with (relative) safety
2) enough room for 2 people who are content with an ipod, camera and guitar.

bonus points for
1) asthetically pleasing in some regard
2) ease/affordability of construction

I'd be more interested in seeing more designs than less, so I'll leave the constraints pretty wide open. Any thoughts?

lose job, default on student loans...

sad but true.

Who moved the goalposts?

[sully75]

Who moved the goalposts?

wha? This is something I'm thinking about doing in a couple of years. Regarding that particular boat at this particular time and this particular person, it's not happening.

[sully75]

If you just buy a cheap boat in an area you would like to cruise or at least on the right coast you want to explore,just cruise it and sell it when your time is up....cruising does not come any cheaper. Your right,hauling and storage is the biggest expense, so avoid it if you can,or keep it to the absolute minimum. If you live and cruise for a year on a $5000 boat, then you should be happy enough just to get the air-fare back home when you are done with it.

Very true. I'll keep that in mind. I'm planning on using the next two years to build my sailing skills. There's a lot of stuff available around here to do that. When I'm ready to leave, I'm assuming the prices of some of these boats will be down even further so there's no rush.

[skaraborgcraft]

Judging the way the economy is going in the US i would say you were right. I wouldnt waste time building one, your dollar today is going to be worth a lot less in a few years time. Get your escape plan in order! Cheers

[Paul Pless]

Judging the way the economy is going in the US i would say you were right. I wouldnt waste time building one, your dollar today is going to be worth a lot less in a few years time. Get your escape plan in order! Cheers

cheers? seriously??

[skaraborgcraft]

C,mon Paul....you are already in Hell....can it get any worse for you??? Not sure wooden boats last too well sailing across lava fields of brimstone.

[jalmberg]

I have an 8000 lb 23' Blue Moon Yawl, which is based on the Falmouth Quay Punt, and similar to the Pardy's first boat. I have no doubt that it could cross oceans, and would be more comfortable than many boats, but...

It is hard to imagine the jostling a human gets in a small boat -- even a very seaworthy boat -- when a sea is running, unless you've done it. The people who do do it are tough cookies. (Tougher than me at 59.) Before you commit to this, make sure you spend a few days offshore in someone else's small boat.

Big and heavy boats are lots more comfortable.

[skaraborgcraft]

I actually find a boat thats small enough to force you to sit down is actually more comfortable than being thrown across a galley or saloon of one with standing headroom. You cant get thrown very far in a boat with less than 8ft of beam. Wether or not you can live with the motion is another thing...but you can get used to timing pouring your earl grey from the tea-pot between swells. I only once lost the dinner off my plate,the plate remained in my lap,but the food on it didnt......much to be said for cooking and eating out of one pot and one spoon;less to wash up too.

[jalmberg]

I actually find a boat thats small enough to force you to sit down is actually more comfortable than being thrown across a galley or saloon of one with standing headroom. You cant get thrown very far in a boat with less than 8ft of beam. Wether or not you can live with the motion is another thing...but you can get used to timing pouring your earl grey from the tea-pot between swells. I only once lost the dinner off my plate,the plate remained in my lap,but the food on it didnt......much to be said for cooking and eating out of one pot and one spoon;less to wash up too.

Bigger boats can be laid out sensibly, too. I only mention this because I got beat up on my boat a couple weekends ago and it reminded me of how violent the motion can be in the right (i.e. wrong) conditions. You get the hang of holding on after the first 194 black and blue marks, but its far too easy to underestimate the physical demands of sailing a small boat, while dreaming in your arm chair (as we all do.)

I'm just saying, try it before you buy it.

[wizbang 13]

These wee boats making 3 and 4 knots calm things down .
Even on my 12 tonner. At sea, hitting 6, she starts making lottsa noise, things start flying and crashing around, I slow her back down.
Settle her down and stay in the bunk. That is the boring reality of ocean cruising.
A few knots makes a huge difference in the violence.

[jalmberg]

These wee boats making 3 and 4 knots calm things down .
Even on my 12 tonner. At sea, hitting 6, she starts making lottsa noise, things start flying and crashing around, I slow her back down.
Settle her down and stay in the bunk. That is the boring reality of ocean cruising.
A few knots makes a huge difference in the violence.

That's good advice. I was pushing her along on a beam reach, meaning the seas were almost on the beam, too. Every once in awhile, we'd get slapped hard. No problem when I was in the cockpit hand steering, but the auto tiller doesn't do a very good job of easing over the big ones.

There's a reason gentlemen only sail downwind! Of course, gentlemen don't need to get home for work on Monday morning.

Anyway, it made me long for that 50' schooner I can't afford.

[gilberj]

Good point about slowing down. Taking an extra few hours/days/weeks on a long passage generally costs very little or nothing at all, assuming you have enough food and water. The alternative is you can remain reasonably rested and feed yourself well. When the boat is rushing along at hull speed, it is quite exciting when sitting on deck, but trying to cook, clean or sleep when the boat is bucking like a mad horse, or turn itself inside-out, quickly becomes wearing.
I know a number of voyagers who always reef down at night, partly to not have to do it in the dark at night, but more importantly to have a more gentle motion whild the crew is having their main rest period.

[Paul Pless]

Settle her down and stay in the bunk. That is the boring reality of ocean cruising.

you sound like paladin

[skaraborgcraft]

you sound like paladin

Chuck was full of sensible good advice. Although i never bothered to heave to to cook, i would slow down,either dropping the main or rolling up the headsail. Wizz is correct, slowing down can increase comfort dramatically. Going too fast to windward over large swells has had me counting the seconds to impact coming off the backs of waves into deep troughs of air......not a sensible thing to have been doing in an old boat. .....best to slow down and keep the boat in the water and not airbourne.

True,bigger boats can be laid out with good accomodation and plenty of handholds. Best place in rough weather was found to be on the cabin sole with a long "bean-bag", being only 24in wide and between the berths,the bag moulded around your body and i never had too much in the way of physical dis-comfort. I have always felt a bit "trapped" and claustrophobic behind a lee-cloth.