Best minimalist-ish voyaging yacht for 2?

[skaraborgcraft]

I do know of a boat built by a friend 26ft plywood double ender, built in 2 months. Admittedly,he is a boatbuilder and knows what he is doing. The secret is to treat it like a job, i normally try to invest 10 hours a day in a project at least over the 5 days, and possibly less over the weekends. It depends if you can build full time or not and have all the materials on hand. We worked 120 hours a week to get a boat re-framed in 8 days, though i would not like to work like that on a continious schedule.....none of us are getting any younger. It takes discipline and commitment to knock out any worthy cruising boat and a certain amount of cash. Anything that takes longer than 2 years to complete is more at risk of being abandoned.

[keyhavenpotterer]

There's a nice look around the Venus 28 here. Built by Martin heard who did all the Gaffers and Luggers Heard's. Strip Iroko on oak.

https://sites.google.com/site/venuscutter/

Wiz, is the ballast on these always cement? Thats a huge normally 'unavoidable' cost saving over lead. And how much of the 8 tons on the Venus 28 is wood and how much keel if you know. Is it designed for a solid 'tree' mast like a telegraph pole?

Cheers

Ed

[wizbang 13]

The original plans say boiler punchings in cement . One would not want to use cement alone.
My keel , on my 34, is lead wheel weights in cement.
Another I helped build has big lumps of clean lead just set in the cement.
The cement keel is not dangerous or un healthy to make.
It adds strength to the wood keel , opposed to a lead keel which needs a bigger wood keel .
One bolts a lead keel to a boat , but one bolts a boat to a cement keel.
These boats are all about 50%
That said, mine has been sailed light and heavy , a 6 " difference on the wl up n down. Their weight carrying ability is a huge strength .
Yes, they are designed for a heavy solid mast. Wanna get Paul Johnson all riled up? Put an alloy spar in a Venus!!
bruce

[keyhavenpotterer]

Bruce,

Say 4 tons on keel on the 28, how much weight in steel and/or lead, and how much cement in the keel?

Would it be 3 tons of metal in 1 ton of cement say? Whats the rough ratio?

Ed

[TR]

I'll quote Phil Bolger and ask, "What's all that ballast for?" A minimal man hours/material project might be something like a AS29, Loose Moose, or even Alert, Hogfish Maximus is another example. Taking Wharram philosophy (no castings, no store bought hardware or hatches, simple rig, no ballast) and building a monohull could be one way to go. A modern lightweight plywood structure with minimal ballast will sail rings around the heavy weights and get off the beach in fewer construction hours.

[wizbang 13]

Well, I do not know numbers , and I do not remember what i might have known. I think my cement /wheel weight keel is about the density of iron. not sure . Ya jam as much lead in the mold as you can !
TR, Show me that boat. Sure modern lightweights are faster sailers. But not faster or cheaper to build. And not capable of carrying tons of junk. Not so fast overloaded and broken.
i mean show one actually built quickly .

[Kaa]

A modern lightweight plywood structure with minimal ballast will sail rings around the heavy weights and get off the beach in fewer construction hours.

How do these lightweight plywood structures do offshore when things turn pear-shaped? Is there a reasonable amount of data on their survivability?

Wharram cats, being cats, are a special case, but a monohull with little ballast should be prone to being rolled. Don't you sacrifice a lot of final stability if you jettison the ballast?

Kaa

[TR]

wiz.....
If you are building less structure using similar methods and materials it will take fewer man hours. For comparison sake let's say the Venus 28 is 12,000 pounds of boat to make including a 5000 pound ballast casting. You've got a massive laminated backbone, laminated frames and floors, and strip planked hull with ply deck over beams, I'll assume sheathing outside at least below DWL and epoxy sealing of the entire structure . The design below is called Romp, drawn by Bolger about 30 years ago, and sailing the world's oceans ever since. Her design displacement is 8200 pounds and ballast is a 2000 pound piece of steel, 3" by 10" by 20' long. Laminated backbone and strip-planking, but without frames or floors I will assume sheathing inside and out. A built up spar and a centerboard with case to build. But still 1/3 rd less structure to build than the Venus, and more importantly in this day and age, 1/3rd less material to purchase. In my part of the world right now steel is cheaper than lead.

As Romp has a larger waterplane than the V28, she will be less affected by additional weight (sink less). I feel one of the biggest handicaps for cruisers is (relatively) deep draft, typically 5-6'. Romp's draft of 18" creates huge freedom in where you anchor, moor, or seek shelter. It also adds independence from travelifts, etc.

Some 20 years on Bolger reported that Romp once sailed 90 miles in 12 hours, just a hair over "hull speed" (1.34 * sq rt DWL) or 7.5 knots. To hit that with a 30' waterline is common, to average that over 12 hours is rather good going.

[TR]

How do these lightweight plywood structures do offshore when things turn pear-shaped? Is there a reasonable amount of data on their survivability?

Plywood ocean racers have been at it for 40-50 years, there is no rash of them breaking up at sea. Plywood is just a material like any other, good and bad boats may be built from it.

a monohull with little ballast should be prone to being rolled. Don't you sacrifice a lot of final stability if you jettison the ballast?

Stability is a couple of waterplane and center of gravity. Change one or the other and stability changes. A wide hull with low freeboard and little ballast will have little high-angle stability and may be prone to remaining upside down. A narrower, high-sided hull with little ballast will be prone to floating high and popping upright when heeled or inverted. Thus the open racers (low freeboard and wide beam) have extreme draft and moderate (proportionally) ballast (today many have canting keels).

[wizbang 13]

TR, I haven't seen ANY lightweight Bolger boats doing ocean sailing , coming down to the Islands, in my decades there.
A few Badgers yes, (including Badger), but no boats like this.
Wee Vee ,( as she is called by some who know her), does not have a massive backbone, it is some 2x4's glued and bolted together. The concrete keel allows for a smaller backbone. Laminating frames? big deal , 4 or 5 days. Floors are 2x4 laid flat across the wide wood keel.
My boat is not sheathed. Sheathing has advantages , and dis advantages, but it is not nessessary. Mine has un sheathed strip planked decks, they were cheaper than buying good ply!
Steel can be used in a Venus keel , no problem.
Listen , I love to "talk" about boats . Please don't think I am busting balls ,( sometimes it sounds like that ) I'm not, just talking boats.
I was poor as dirt in 1983, but determined, and resourceful. (and ballsy and over confident)
Picking up an old FG boat is great , for others . I cannot abide a FG boat. Or lite beer.

[John B]

I'm sure that Sundowner was going to do all that was expected of her. Watching her chomping up on the rocks at Great Barrier island on the news chopper footage is etched in my memory. As a consequence I resolved to buy a 406 epirb and to this day I spend some 'special' time double checking the chart scale before plotting a position or course.( when changing charts)

Infidel was prevented from racing in the Sydney Hobart in the '60's for concerns over her plywood construction. She seems to have done all right since then and there's legions of other Spencer boats which have been raced and cruised to the pacific islands over the decades. All keel boats though.

[Mad Scientist]

Phil Bolger's Monhegan, a small Friendship. 18'0" x 7'0" x 3'6"
Quote: Ballast about 700 lbs. small scrap iron in 300 - 400 lbs. concrete worked in on bare wood.
Chapter 19, 'Small Boats'.

Hope this helps a bit.

Tom

[JimD]

An old thread with info on Bolger's Romp http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...r-design/page3 http://www.thecoastalpassage.com/papers/tcp22.pdf

[Woxbox]

A Wharram Tanenui, 28 foot , small and capable.

This is my thinking, too. Or a Wharram one or two sizes up. I don't think there are any homebuilt designs that give a better mix of seaworthiness, low cost and decent performance.

A trimaran was mentioned, but the carrying capacity/cost ratio for tris is terrible. The Tiki 26 (I have the study plans) is too small to my mind. Here's the link to the Tiki 30, note that the load capacity for this boat, which is only 25'5" on the waterline, is 2200 pounds. Even a minimalist couple needs a fair bit of water to stay healthy. Add in all the rice and beans and a couple of spare $99 guitars, and you'll still have room for a spare anchor to two and more than a few books. Wharram's build time estimate for this boat is 900 hours. I'm sure it won't get done sooner than that, but it would come together faster than any traditional curvy hulled thing would, even though you need two hulls to make a cat. And not to be dismissed, these boats are designed to be easy to maintain and repair anyplace you might find yourself. (And having his and hers cabins will help keep the peace through those long crossings.)

And hey, it's about time we had another one of these let's dream about it threads.

[sully75]

sully,

Here's a great read for you with detailed intelligent discussion about good blue water boats.

http://www.amazon.com/Twenty-Small-S.../dp/0939837323



Also I was serious about Annie Hill's book, Voyaging on a Small Income. It is an excellent guide to the things you'll need to know. My Bean-no comment was a reference to her advice about low cost, easily stored, and tasty protein source – beans.

I have a copy! Read it when I was in high school.

Another good reason to have two cabins, each can smell their own.

[sully75]

Daydreaming dude. Don't sweat it. For the record, I've been to boatbuilding school, worked in boatyards quite a bit. I have no illusions of working on boats being all that much fun. Just thinking a bit. I'm very, very tight with a buck, I can assure you.

Mr Wiz, I know you've done this and have earned the bragging rights, but to suggest to a self confessed daydreamer that he's gonna have that boat in three months for 10K seems a little off the mark to me. More likely in three months he'll have gone through half his money and might have the backbone and frames built. How about a realistic run through of what is involved in such a build? The work shop, the tools, the stacks of sandpaper, the fifty clamps, glue, the electricity bill, the current cost of fasteners, the rigging and hardware, sailcloth, the buckets of antifoul paint, the paint and varnish, the electronic nav and detection equipment so he doesn't get run over by a Cosco freighter in the middle of the night, and so on. Because for most of us, 3 mos and 10K typically means a nice little daysailer for spins around the bay or a little camp cruising in local waters.

[Boater14]

Ok,ok enough with the boat suff. Why a dreadnought? Your not playing Town Hall. A nice parlor sized guitar like the Martin OOO's would do the job. Not a Martin surely, a Craigslist Yamaha knockoff.

[keyhavenpotterer]

A word of Charlie's Resolution:

My understanding is: Charlie left tired, apart from building the boat, he was being chased by NZ immigration for overstaying his visa because the boat had taken him longer to build than he anticipated. He really had to just get it launched and get off. The boat had a plastic vetus fuel tank for the diesel which started to leak into the boat. The smell and slipperyness of the diesel mean't he couldn't continue into the Pacific and turned back to sort it out on his vane or pilot. Woke up, and the cross tide had put him where he hadn't expected to be. Approaching the rocks the rudder hit, and it was held hard centrally by rope supports. These snapped the tiller. So he was stuck with a boat on a rock and right at that moment couldn't steer the boat easily. I guess his engine wasn't usable either with its fuel in the saloon. A sequence of misfortune that can happen to anyone. If he hadn't an engine, no fuel tank no fuel spill, he wouldn't have had to turn round and maybe it would be still out there. Clearly most people need an engine and should fit one but its an example of how fate plays its hand. Maybe something worse was to happen so 'God' got him off his boat still alive. Who's to know. Sundowner is designed to go straight from the outset with rope to tiller sheeting to eliminate the cost of a windvane also, a financial advantage maybe as those things aren't cheap. She is one of the few boats like the Venus designed from the outset for amateur construction and tradewind crusing, very few boats actually are: just look at the drains in the transom: fist size to clear water out for example - just whats needed. The rig comes down for repair or easy rigging checks etc, another good example. She's designed to have all the chain needed in the bow etc - stuff like that.

[John B]

Thats how I recall it too . Athough,where he went up nothing could have survived, and there was half a gale that weekend blowing pretty well directly onshore . As JW commented before , another couple of hundred metres south and he would have been on a beach. But then I guess you could say that another few hundred and it may have been Arid island or more very rough coast. I also recall that amongst the exhaustion and the fuel leak( what a nightmare that would have been) that there was a change of charts and scale and that contributed to him being where he was ( or not being where he thought he was.)

[CapnJ2ds]

John Welsford is currently thinking thoughts about just this sort of boat. I'll flick him an email suggesting he get on over here.

[keyhavenpotterer]

Chuck Paine's Carol and Frances have alot going for them.

The smaller Carol is a rare sight. There's one for sale in Cowes, cold molded professionally built. They're normally stripped. I put a link so people can see it. It has a small coachroof added which isn't to plan, but understandable to stand up cooking etc.






Chuck's retired now and has taken the Carol and Frances with him (as well as a few others) and is into wooden boatbuilding, building a mini modern 12.5, Redwing of his own design currently on his blog. Not connected to sale, just quite a rare but good boat. A kind a scaled up Caledonia Yawl type with a keel (he also took inspiration from Scottish workboats) that are popular here.

http://www.apolloduck.co.uk/advert.phtml?id=260526


http://www.chuckpaine.com/blog/

Ed

[skaraborgcraft]

I think i would take the lines of the Carol and build strip plank with a concrete keel. Its still a small boat, but big enough for the job. I have never had an issue with standing,or the lack of,headroom in small yachts.

An alternative to 30ft Romp would be a Maurice Griffiths water witch, build in ply or timber,strip or carvel. Good all-round cruising boat, not a particular performer under sail,but makes a good cruising home, i lived onboard one for a few years.

I think size would be dictated by your option to have an inboard diesel,small outboard or scull/oars. I would want an inboard in anything over 3 ton,just my opinion having done the engineless cruising. A smaller and lighter boat i would be happy with a lightweight outboard and a sweep.

[JimD]

Daydreaming dude. Don't sweat it. For the record, I've been to boatbuilding school, worked in boatyards quite a bit. I have no illusions of working on boats being all that much fun. Just thinking a bit. I'm very, very tight with a buck, I can assure you.

A few thoughts. How old are you? How fit? And how many other distractions and commitments in your life? Its one thing to be 25 and strong, unemployed, no family, and nothing to keep you from devoting 12 hours a day, seven days a week, for 3 or how ever many months. But if you're 45 or 55, already putting in 40 hours a week at a paying job, have a family and other responsibilities, its a very different story.

[skaraborgcraft]

I think this is more of a hypothetical thread Jim. Interesting thread all the same, but perhaps the OP could add a budget and a build time to narrow down some of the design choices as its truley wide open at present, or maybe thats a good thing???

[skaraborgcraft]

Tiki 30.....met a young Dutch couple in the Algarve with one of these and can vouch that it was a real light wind rocket. Only drawback was a large tacking angle and not such a great VMG to windward. Any other point of sailing and they were flying,at least in comparison to an overloaded 26ft mono. Huge amount of deckspace too,and they had a folding bimini/cockpit tent that was just like a Bedouin tent,great for socialising at anchor.

[TR]

TR, I haven't seen ANY lightweight Bolger boats doing ocean sailing , coming down to the Islands, in my decades there.

.....Well I haven't seen any Paul Johnston Venus ketches in my decades here, doesn't mean they aren't out there doing it......

Romp sailed through the Caribbean, as did Alert, Loose Moose II was there until wrecked, and Hogfish Maximus is there.

I enjoy diversity in boats and like to examine alternatives. The fact is most cruisers we see today are in large to really large boats, but the alternative has always been there. Look at the Hiscock's, as soon as they could afford it they bought a big boat, but soon realized it was a lot of trouble and they didn't really need all that space, so they got one 10' shorter. Financial reality right now is that for <$10k one can buy a ready to go 30-35' cruising boat, that's far less than the new build cost of something the same. And you are sailing today rather than at some unknown date in the future.

The Wharram cats are great but do not work so well in our temperate rain forest. Lots of deck space with little or no protection makes no sense when it's cold and rainy (and dark) most of the year. And two (or more) separate compartments are hard to heat and ventilate, much easier if it's all one larger space.

[John B]

Just to play devils advocate here and because I like talking boats too... Probably more from the fact I've had little to do with em but I've been in sea conditions where I just cannot imagine doing very well in a super shoal draft boat, or a Wharram for that matter.
What do you guys think Romp would be like at sea in 5 metre seas and 40 or 50 knots? Would a boat like that pass a Cat 1 stability test do you think? I even wonder if my close friends boat Contour, 42 ft shoal draft Birdsall would pass now and she's been around twice or close to it.

[TR]

Well John......first you must realize that "doing very well" is a state of mind......

Is Cat 1 stability the same as ISO Category A? Best would be a link to the standard........

[John B]

Danged if I know and my book has gone walkabout( I need it for cat 3 too). 'Doing very well'....I suppose I mean slightly better than ' survive'. Survive without permanent mental damage even.

[Hwyl]

Survive without permanent mental damage even.

That's possible?

[TR]

http://www.yachtingnz.org.nz/sites/yachtingnz/files/flickr_imgs/Safety_%20YNZ_Safety_Regulations_of_Sailing_09-12.pdf

Its in there......

[PeterSibley]

.

The Wharram cats are great but do not work so well in our temperate rain forest. Lots of deck space with little or no protection makes no sense when it's cold and rainy (and dark) most of the year. And two (or more) separate compartments are hard to heat and ventilate, much easier if it's all one larger space.

Certainly agreed for cooler and wetter climes but for the sun they are great, amazing deck room and shoal draft. I've been aboard a 42 foot Nari in 40 knots and 3 to 4m seas and she was safe and stable if horribly uncomfortable .

[PeterSibley]

Chuck Paine's Carol







http://www.apolloduck.co.uk/advert.phtml?id=260526



Ed

I'd call Carol a perfect solution to this quest, at 12000 pound or A$21000 she is very nice indeed.

[wizbang 13]

Nice boat. But, Carol is a minimum boat for one . Not two .

[RodSBT]

Carols' bigger sister, Frances (FRP version).

[PeterSibley]

She'd be nice in glued lap ply .

[RodSBT]

She'd be nice in glued lap ply .

Yep, kind of like a Grey Seal on steroids.

[John P Lebens]

Boojum is your ocean going mini-yacht:

http://www.kastenmarine.com/boojum25.htm

I have not seen her on recent visits to Port Townsend, but this is a small ship that is ocean capable and perfect for two.

[skaraborgcraft]

Dont forget the 24ft "Annie" Mr Sibley! She was and still is a good prospect. The plastic Francis boats are still expensive (depending on your budget),i have seen West sail 32s for the same or cheaper in the US. Paines 30 Leigh was another good performer. Do you think there would be a market for a slightly fatter Francis 26 and a slightly smaller in weight and draft Venus 28. Split the difference and call it a Franus 27? Keep the rig simple for home building.

[Quest]

I of course am massively biased. I ultimately picked something that appealed to my eye, looked like I could do it (idiot!) and that felt right when I was narrowing down options. I was always going to end up around the 26 to maybe 28ft length and the Sundowner was the one. I had a few in mind, but deep down you know which one you want.

Having started, I know it will take me a long time and cost me more than I think. But, I am in no hurry to finish and am really surprised at how much pleasure just finishing little jobs gives you. I went from frame to frame, getting a sense of achievement along the way. Now they are all up I am getting more impatient but want it to continue to be enjoyable rather than a chore.

In the end, pick one you like and think is within your build space, budget, time frame and away you go (I will read that in years to come and cringe I am sure!).

Yes I could have bought one now, but building is already giving me a return on my investment.

[keyhavenpotterer]

That might be a Westsail 28. Some go for $15-20k. Not so many as the 32 and heavy displacement, but I would expect as high a volume as you can get, and very high motion comfort.

• LOA: 28'3”
• LWL: 23'5”
• Beam: 9'7”
• Draft: 4'4”
• Displacement: 13,500 lbs
• Ballast: 4,200 lbs
• Sail Area (working sails): 545 sq. ft.
• LOA: 28'3”
• LWL: 23'5”
• Beam: 9'7”
• Draft: 4'4”
• Displacement: 13,500 lbs
• Ballast: 4,200 lbs
• Sail Area (working sails): 545 sq. ft.
  
  
  Another boat specifically designed for cruising two people accross the Pacific is the Vancouver 27/28. GRP, but there's everything done right on that boat.
  
  
  
  Robert Harris also did a smaller Vancouver 25, they go for peanuts. About $15.
  
  The late John Leather, designed a small Colin Archer called the Kategat 26.
  
  
  
  #
  
  4.8 tons.
  Ed

[Hwyl]

Boojum is your ocean going mini-yacht:

http://www.kastenmarine.com/boojum25.htm

I have not seen her on recent visits to Port Townsend, but this is a small ship that is ocean capable and perfect for two.

Brilliant website.

[keyhavenpotterer]

Says Boojum needs a 35hp continuous rated diesel such as the Lister alpha.



New engine and gearbox set up is £4750 here in the UK.

6.6 tons light upto 8.5 tons max loaded. 350 gallons of fuel is that.

Only 600kg of lead in each bilge keel. So not a huge chunk of cost there. The bilge keels would reduce rolling and you could park it on a beach.

Designed to run 2600 NM. Obviously speed, wind and weather dependent. The riding sail would stop rolling.

Hull aluminium, top cold molded wood.

There's a noise issue and a ultimate reliability issue of an engine system v sails, but in Northern Lattitudes low wind like the PNW it might be the job. Also would be good through the French canals and Med/ Red Sea.

Says its self righting, with no negative part of the curve, I guess due to the inverted flotation of the big wheelhouse. Only 8'6 wide and 3'9" deep.

A Fisher 25 or Fisher Freeward 25 gives a sail option too though though they're £25-30k and have a single keel rather than bilge.


The Hunter 30ft bilge keels of the mid 90's here in the UK had very high AVS as did the Sadler 290, well into the 130 degrees if I remember with Cat A I think. Certainly nice to beach it sometimes without a worry or a scrub. We had a Moody 27 bilge keeler and it sailed very well.

[PeterSibley]

Quite an impressive bow wave .

[keyhavenpotterer]

Is it fishing? Whats off that line to port into the water?

[John B]

Stabilisers/ flopper stoppers.

[skaraborgcraft]

Sometimes called dolphins, passive anti-roll devices, probably more reliable and cheaper than either electric or hydraulic active stabalizers. Easy DIY, others not.

Westsail 28..... now theres a nice option.

[wizbang 13]

The design required it to first "be cute" . Ugh , a cute mini tug of 'luminum. 3 things I don't like in the same boat.
sorry , a bit of my sour side showing .

[PaulGrun]

While crossing an ocean your Ipod will have no cell signal, your camera will rust in the salt air and your guitar will warp from the wet (everything will be wet on a small boat). That said, please provide more information such as your realistic budget, where you are planning to build (where in which country, in what building or space), tools you own, sailing experience and woodworking skills.
There are thousands of designs out there and you will only see a few on this forum so the more you can pin down what your needs will be the better the chance we can be of assistance.

Not to nitpick (much), but an Ipod doesn't use a cell signal, so they are okay on that account.

[five guys named moe]

This is maybe a bit late, but Wiz is such a badass... anyone who has not checked out his build thread needs to.