Best minimalist-ish voyaging yacht for 2?

[sully75]

Just wondering what you would list as your favorite minimalist(ish) voyaging yacht for 2 relatively spartan people.

Basic criteria would be
1) Able to cross oceans with (relative) safety
2) enough room for 2 people who are content with an ipod, camera and guitar.

bonus points for
1) asthetically pleasing in some regard
2) ease/affordability of construction

I'd be more interested in seeing more designs than less, so I'll leave the constraints pretty wide open. Any thoughts?

[TerryLL]

Not my favorite, but the Jay Benford sailing dories meet your requirements.



http://www.benford.us/dories/34.html

[kenjamin]

Jay Benford's Badger comes to mind. You could build it, buy Annie Hill's book on Voyaging on a Small Income, and secure a case of Bean-no and you'd be all set.

[michigangeorge]

While crossing an ocean your Ipod will have no cell signal, your camera will rust in the salt air and your guitar will warp from the wet (everything will be wet on a small boat). That said, please provide more information such as your realistic budget, where you are planning to build (where in which country, in what building or space), tools you own, sailing experience and woodworking skills.
There are thousands of designs out there and you will only see a few on this forum so the more you can pin down what your needs will be the better the chance we can be of assistance.

[coopercdrkey]

iPods are MP3 players, not cell phones.
There are a number of inexpensive cameras that are "water resistant" if not water proof.
The Rogue dreadnaught from Musicians' Friend plays nearly as nice as my D-28, and at $99. and free shipping can be tossed overboard when it won't hold tune.

So, put those considerations to your rudder, and proceed with your search!

[St.J]

This is a great question. How many times have I asked myself this?

Quest is building a Welsford Sundowner. I wouldn't want to go much more minimalist for ocean crossing. I understand that Mr. Welsford started by asking himself how much space and weight the stores required to cross an ocean are and then built a boat around the answer.

I like the photos of Sundowner from the bow and in profile but the transom is not pretty to my eye. It is very practical, being plumb.



St.John

[wizbang 13]

Vertue Sloop is my "new" dreamboat, I seek a beater to fix up.

The 28', Paul Johnson, Venus 2 , 8 ton dbl ended gaff ketch , is a little bigger and a lot heavier.

Things will stay as dry on a well found small vessel as they will on a 45 footer that has lots of bells and whistles , and windows and butterfly hatches and wires going through the deck .
Folks love the Badger, not me . One can strip plank a boat faster, have a better looking , stronger vessel. ( of course, most will build s l o w e r )
My dream Vertue would be converted to gaff. marconi rig is a complicated thing in itself. My idea of minimalism is pretty freakin spartan. 2 burner primus, bucket, no built in tanks, small diesel, couple of small silly panels, minimum batteries, small winches , no fridge , not even an ice box.
I have been "camping " on my boat for 17 years.
this does promise to be a lively thread, but how many here have actually done small boat shorthanded sailing? I was 3 years on a Seabird and another 2 on a 21 ' Antigua sloop.Both too small for 2 people.

[JimD]

PIONEER 21' DORY/SHARPIE
	In this design a client asked for the largest and safest single handed offshore yacht that he could get on a very limited budget. For your money. a dory or sharpie gives you more length per £100 than any other shape. Add to this type of hull a simple box ballast keel filled with scrap iron and cement and you have a very seaworthy, inexpensive and quickly built design. The junk rig has been used for it’s safe easily handled single handed qualities and the design has been set up so that virtually all operations are controlled from the security of the doghouse. The construction drawings are for Foam Sandwich Fibreglass building. However, the design can easily be adapted for simple ply construction and the keel arrangement may be altered to bilge or centreboard (we will be very pleased to advice and supply drawings for any modifications to any of our designs). LOA 20’6’’; LWL 17’6’’; Beam 7’4’’; Draft 3’3’’; Sail Area 190 sq.ft.; Displ. 3500 lbs; Ballast 1400 lbs.
Pioneer 21 Particulars LOD 20'6" 6.25m Beam 7'4" 2.24m Draft 3'3" 0.99m Sail Area 190 sq.ft 17.67 sq.m Displacement 3500 lbs 1587 kg Ballast 1400 lbs 635 kg Maximum Headroom 4'7" (5'9" in Doghouse) 1.4m (1.75m in Doghouse)) Accommodation 4 berths - room for a galley and wc Engine 7-10 hp outboard Hull Shape Dory - flat bottom with single chine Construction Methods Foam sandwich - longer version is ply over frame Major plywood requirements for 23'4" version 35 sheets of 12mm Guidance Use Offshore Drawing/Design Package 7 x A1 dawings + 8 x A4 instruction/spec sheets Additions and alterations included with the plans Mast in tabernacle Bilge keels with 2'4" (700mm) draft

But there are so many older small fiberglass yachts around at prices far less than the cost of a new one off build its hard to see why anyone wants to build a small blue water boat these days unless there's some very unique requirement you just can't get or modify in a production boat.

[sully75]

While crossing an ocean your Ipod will have no cell signal, your camera will rust in the salt air and your guitar will warp from the wet (everything will be wet on a small boat). That said, please provide more information such as your realistic budget, where you are planning to build (where in which country, in what building or space), tools you own, sailing experience and woodworking skills.
There are thousands of designs out there and you will only see a few on this forum so the more you can pin down what your needs will be the better the chance we can be of assistance.

Common man...how's about I won't pee on your daydream if you don't pee on mine?

I was intentionally leaving the conversation wide open because I'd like to see what people come up with. Being able to cross an ocean with some sense of relative security narrows the field quite significantly.

[sully75]

But there are so many older small fiberglass yachts around at prices far less than the cost of a new one off build its hard to see why anyone wants to build a small blue water boat these days unless there's some very unique requirement you just can't get or modify in a production boat.

Very true. The only caveat is that what's available is pretty conventional (not that there's anything wrong with that, seriously), old in the tooth and maybe not ideally suited to voyaging.

I do sometimes fantasize about doing a Jester redo (rip off the deck + cabin + cockpit and make a full length deck with inside stearing) on a Cape Dory or some sort of Alberg design (of which there seem to be a million available at giveaway prices) but that's about where it is right now...a fantasy. I'd prefer something with an outboard rudder too, but that doesn't seem to be too common in the fiberglass 70s and 80s boats.

[JimD]

Common man...how's about I won't pee on your daydream if you don't pee on mine?
.

Well shipmate, if its daydreaming you want then that changes everything

[JimD]

Seaworthy and unconventional enough

25'5" SHANGHAI
This yacht was designed a modern interpretation of the junk type for music arranger and composer Mike Hale. She had to be a safe and comfortable cruising yacht with cross channel capability as well as the ability to venture into shallow waters. The hull is of multi-chine shape and is assembled from pre-shaped ply components with fore and aft girders also acting as bunk fronts bilge board cases and locker fronts. She has a large and deep cockpit aft and the cabin is laid out for 2 to live comfortably. The outboard is housed in an aft enclosed well. There are twin bilge boards housed in the bunk/seat fronts so that they do not encroach on the living space. The junk rig may be supplemented with a reacher and all sail controls are led back to the cockpit.
25'5" Shanghai Particulars LOD 25'5" 7.76m Beam 8' 11" 2.72m Draft 2'1" 5'4" Sail Area - main Reacher 244 sq.ft 106 sq.ft 22.7 sq.m 9.9 sq.m Displacement 6395 lbs 2900 kg Ballast 2300 lbs 1043 kg Maximum Headroom 6'1" 1.85m Accommodation 2 berths plus galley and wc/wb compartment Engine 10-12 hp outboard Hull Shape U shaped - flat bottom plus 3 planks per side Construction Methods Ply over frame (girder/bulkheads) Major plywood requirements 7 - 6mm sheets 15 - 9mm sheets 35 - 12mm sheets 7 x 18mm sheets Guidance Use Offshore Drawing/Design Package 9 x A1 drawings + 9 x A4 instruction/spec sheets Additions and alterations included with the plans

[rbgarr]

I imagine minimalist life ashore is less so afloat, especially voyaging. Stores and spares take a lot of space and it's more than a lifestyle choice (quite risky) to try to do without. The Pardey's books are useful references IMO.

Thomas Gillmer designed a 29' voyager with a small cockpit, snug cabin and large lazarette (practically an aft cabin) and forepeak, separated by bulkheads. If I were ever to go offshore again alone or with another that would be my choice, but it's not a simple or lightweight build. It's shown in 'The Book of Boats" ed. by Wm. and John Atkin.

[skaraborgcraft]

Vertue plans are availiable at great expense, and are one of the great small time cruisers. I lived and cruised aboard a narrow gutted 26ft plywood cutter for several years, and if you really are minimal, fine for 2 people. Venus 28 would be my dream ship for what you propose,but with the weight (build expense) and draft (limitations), many other options availiable. Personally i quite like Selways 24ft Tasman, purposely designed for 2-up cruising.



Again,this may be a pipedream idea,but some budget ideas would not go amiss. The above boat has a lot going for it, even if plywood is not everyones thing....i survived a force 11 storm in the Bay of Biscay and off the coast of Portugal, not bad for a 32 year old plywood boat,but she was of good design,a Robert Tucker Escapade class.

Many ,many boats capable of your ideas,but budget would be the deciding factor for a lot of designs. How much tonnage can you afford to build in this scenario? Cheers

[Clarkey]

How about a Wharram Tiki 26, seems to fit the brief pretty well?

[sean27]

Minimal but comfortable and fast. When going minimal, speed is more important IMHO.

Woods Gypsy

http://www.sailingcatamarans.com/gypsy.htm

[skaraborgcraft]

The Woods cats are like having 3 seperate cabins, but having to put wet weather gear on if its raining to go from one to the other. I really fancied the 22ft Wizard when it came out, but its really a warm climate boat,at least i wouldnt want to live on one in Northern climates.Would feel like luxery in comparison to a Tiki 21

[JimD]

A tri might provide a bigger main cabin.

[robert666]

Falmouth Quay punts have quite a reputation as long distance small boats. A few notable examples are Curlew, Teal (formerly Little Pal) and Twilight (Uffa Fox). they are seaworthy, comfortable boats with simple strong gaff yawl rigs designed originally for tending and piloting ships in all weathers of Cornwall. I would post lines and plans but Photobucket is playing up. strong and simple carvel on sawn frame construction.

Robert

[skaraborgcraft]

If you can stretch cost and ability to carvel build,then aswell as the Falmouth working boat type, consider also Itchen Ferry type. Theres a mass of working boat heritage to draw from that could provide able boats.

[robert666]

A few links for quay punts;
http://www.falmouthquaypunt.blogspot.co.uk/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falmouth_Quay_Punt
http://www.thecheappages.com/smyth/mast_n_sail_07.html

and a lines plan;


Carvel planking on sawn frames is cheap, strong and repairable. These boats had to be fast to earn a living, first one to make contact with a ship became her pilot and tender for the time she stayed in falmouth. They are very seaworthy as used to hove to out west off the lizard and lands end waiting for incoming ships in all weathers.

Robert

[TR]

Glass International Folkboat, has an outboard rudder and it's simple to set up a trim-tab steering vane. Available at $2-5K. Will take you anywhere in the world.

[Crazer]

As long as we're throwing FG boats into the mix, my biased opinion is that you can't get any better than the Pearson Triton. They stand out in the crowd, there's no mistaking them for anything else. Another good option would be the Contessa 26.

As for wooden boats, the already mentioned Sundowner is certainly the first that comes to mind. The venerable Seabird Yawl could be an option too, certainly attractive and unusual if not really unconventional per say. Again, my opinion could be considered biased, I love anything with a mizzen...

[wizbang 13]

Seabird is very small inside , especially the centerboard version. She is a minimal yacht for 1.
Not even easy to build.
Here is the 28' Venus. fastest and simplest boat here to build

[Hwyl]

Second the cheap plastic route. Matt Rutherford just circumnavigated the Americas in an Albin Vega

[skaraborgcraft]

I will second the Vega as one of the cheapest and best plastic buys,it advantage over a IF folkboat being the inboard engine option does not effect the trim so much. Cheap too,and good seaboats.

[PeterSibley]

A Wharram Tanenui ,28 foot , small and capable.

[Dannybb55]

http://www.joshuaslocumsocietyintl.o.../solotable.htm
Go here and follow the giants of this club. The Seabird yawl it my fave, the keel version, she is so simple and a straightforward build and she was the first one to go around twice. Then Harry built a larger one. If I was going to build a modern doublehander then I would build a Juna Junosdautir by George Buehler. She is an updated version of his Juno design. LOD 37-8-0, Beam 10-4-0 Draught a light fathom. Displacement 10 tonnes. You could build her inexpensively with sawmill lumber and stainless and galvanized fasteners. Build her in a yard that has a travel lift and forego much of an electrical system. She can be built of steel if that is cheaper. Build an engine room and pick up a Sabb when you find one overseas.
Danny Nye
PS get his design book as it lists more stock plans than his web site.

[gilberj]

First the technical stuff...
1 You want to keep the water out...Doors, hatches, ports windows, vents built to be watertight or very nearly watertight when closed.
2 You want to stay sunny side up....good initial stability and adequate ultimate stability...more on this below....
3 You want the boat mechanically correct....in my mind simple is better, but you must have a sound and maintained boat, well equipped with spares for everything, and ample fuel, water and food for the intended voyage.

Initial stability is necessary to be able to stand up and carry sail when the wind is really blowing,...... the old beat off a lee shore stuff. Weatherliness is next to godliness. Seakindliness is how the boat takes care of the people. Technically it is about changes in motion and accelerations, up, down, roll, yaw and pitch. Most of the elements that contribute to seakindliness are detrimental to either stability (both initial and ultimate), and/or drag. It is a balancing act.

Ultimate stability or angle of vanishing stability. The Europeans have come up with a standard ISO 12217-2 which assesses sailing boats and requires them to meet the standard. There are 4 sea areas..."A"to"D" with "A" being able to handle a Force 10 and 7 metre normal and up to 14 metre waves, D being sheltered waters with up to .5 metre waves and 20 knots or so of wind. All boats manufactured and sold in Europe must be assessed and have an ISO rating. The ISO standard has been used to develop the STIX number. A vessel intended for sea area "A" should have a stix number greater than 32 and an angle of vanishing stability (AVS) of 130 or greater. The AVS I think is mainly intended to show there is still a strong righting lever when the boat is knocked down, mast in the water sort of knock down.

Larger boats are less at risk than smaller boats, of a serious knock-down or being rolled. It is a size thing. A 10 metre wave ~33ft will pose less of a threat to a 60 footer, than a 30 footer. The smaller the boat you choose the more likely you will test the theory. We are talking about a minimalist boat here probably shorter rather than longer.

It is worth noting that all this righting is a function of weights and volumes and the relationship between them.

The truth is most people do their offshore sailing in tropical and subtropical waters, outside of hurricane season. the odds of meeting the conditions to really test the theory are quite slim. I know people who have sailed more than half way around the world before the encountered a force 9 gale or greater.

Many of the boats mentioned above can meet the bill. I like the Virtue and its various cousins, ( there are quite a few English boat designs or intentional copies ( Bristol Channel Cutter...Blue Moon). I like Seabird though I'd build her with an outside keel, a long fin rather than a straight long keel, and a full width cabin, (for more room and more volume higher up improving stability. I like the 28 foot Venus. By the way I have sailed extensively with variations of all three of these. The Folkboat/Contessa are good but marginal for a crew of two. The H28 is good, as is the Tahiti Ketch if you give it a proper (larger) rig.

For a serious voyager I'd consider light air performance to be almost as important as the ability to continue in strong winds. The ability to hang more rags is good. topsails, drifters, code zero, whatever......

Some people will need more room and comfort than others. Be sure your mate is there for the trip and not just for you.

Consider good ventilation very seriously. Higher latitude, cooler waters you need to control condensation and be able to dry out and warm up. In the tropics you need ventilation just to breath. In the tropics you can sleep and live on deck ( wear a hat) you need to be able to be comfortable on deck. In Higher latitudes you may not want to spend any more time on deck than you really have to. Jester was built so the crew did not have to go on deck at all.

[Sayla]

Just wondering what you would list as your favorite minimalist(ish) voyaging yacht for 2 relatively spartan people.

Basic criteria would be
1) Able to cross oceans with (relative) safety
2) enough room for 2 people who are content with an ipod, camera and guitar.

bonus points for
1) asthetically pleasing in some regard
2) ease/affordability of construction

I'd be more interested in seeing more designs than less, so I'll leave the constraints pretty wide open. Any thoughts?

A strip planked & sheathed Lyle Hess cutter is hard to beat for that spec

[skaraborgcraft]

Designs from 24 to 37ft already. Shows how some people have different ideas about minimalist boats. A Kim Holman Twister 28 is another option availiable in wood and plastic. I would take one of these as an alternative to a Vertue, being slightly longer,better in light winds, and easier to find second hand at less cost than a vertue. H28 is another small boat i saw a few of on my travels. Most "budget" sailors were on boats under 30ft, but Americans were mostly always in 35ft+,but none of them could ever have been called minimalist,as they had all the "gadgets" ,solar arrays and turbines to power ssb radios and fridge freezers. You could always guarentee a cold beer on a US boat,even if the beer was not particulary good........maybe you save your Budweiser for visiting guests?? Cheers

[sully75]

Thanks for the suggestions, much appreciated.

For the record, I spent most of my time in high school dreaming of this boat which (thankfully?) I never got around to building. I haven't actually heard the word that anyone actually has.

http://www.macnaughtongroup.com/farthing.htm

[sully75]

But I still do wonder about modifying an older glass boat in the 24-32' range similarly. Might be a lot easier than recoring a deck!

[kenjamin]

sully,

Here's a great read for you with detailed intelligent discussion about good blue water boats.

http://www.amazon.com/Twenty-Small-S.../dp/0939837323



Also I was serious about Annie Hill's book, Voyaging on a Small Income. It is an excellent guide to the things you'll need to know. My Bean-no comment was a reference to her advice about low cost, easily stored, and tasty protein source – beans.

[martin1302]

Thanks for the suggestions, much appreciated.

For the record, I spent most of my time in high school dreaming of this boat which (thankfully?) I never got around to building. I haven't actually heard the word that anyone actually has.

http://www.macnaughtongroup.com/farthing.htm

This Gentlemen from Germany is building a Farthing --> http://www.boote-forum.de/showthread...light=Farthing

[JimD]

You'll still spend years and several tens of thousands of dollars building most of these boats. A rather expensive and time consuming daydream.

[wizbang 13]

I could build the 28' Venus in 3 months for ten grand.

[JimD]

I could build the 28' Venus in 3 months for ten grand.

How much of that would go towards the sewing machine you'd make the sails from?

[wizbang 13]

$130
but this one had hand stitched sails

[skaraborgcraft]

I could build the 28' Venus in 3 months for ten grand.

Seriously? Even today in 2012? i would like to know what you would use to build it. Cheers

[JimD]

Mr Wiz, I know you've done this and have earned the bragging rights, but to suggest to a self confessed daydreamer that he's gonna have that boat in three months for 10K seems a little off the mark to me. More likely in three months he'll have gone through half his money and might have the backbone and frames built. How about a realistic run through of what is involved in such a build? The work shop, the tools, the stacks of sandpaper, the fifty clamps, glue, the electricity bill, the current cost of fasteners, the rigging and hardware, sailcloth, the buckets of antifoul paint, the paint and varnish, the electronic nav and detection equipment so he doesn't get run over by a Cosco freighter in the middle of the night, and so on. Because for most of us, 3 mos and 10K typically means a nice little daysailer for spins around the bay or a little camp cruising in local waters.

[skaraborgcraft]

I have come across one McNaughton Farthing, built in ferro cement. It was rough! Having said that , the owner builder had apparently sailed it down from Scotland to Cornwall singlehanded. I would not say it was big enough for 2 people unless those 2 people wanted constant physical contact. The bigger farthing and shilling are a different story.

[skaraborgcraft]

I would assume Bruce is talking about a basic hull ,deck and rig, a single primus and a couple of buckets.The absolute essentials to get off cruising. Electronics? Why? This is supposed to be a minimalist boat.

[wizbang 13]

I have been buying AYC for $1200 a thousand. Not boards that one would carvel plank with , but perfect for strip planking. So the wood, 3 grand
All galv fastenings
Tree for masts. Do I have to include the cost of a chainsaw? Worm saw , power planer, drill and grinder. All cheap at pawn shops. That is all you need .
Epoxy, that is the big one, but an off brand..not west. Abrasives are expensive too, but they are cheaper when you know how rough you can go.
Electronics? I use a hundred dollar gps now!
Okay, I need time to collect the materials. I have gallons of paint , anti fouling included , free, from trolling swap meets. same with line, dacron and nylon. Blocks? make em .
I just bought a used T Bird main for $25, turned it into a yankee jib in a day.Used sails are silly cheap, and the more you make , the easier it gets and the better the sails.

Of course A newbie can't do this, I am just saying that Venus is designed for simple building.
The gaff rig is a huge part of the plan . I could not and would not build an economy boat marconi.
Standing rigging can be almost free , thrown away 1x 19 with nicro press. This is another where gaff beats marconi.
And you would have to shut the computer off for the duration , so, maybe I couldn't do it again?

[David W Pratt]

Concur with the John Vigor book,
also read My Old Man and the Sea, doubling Cape Horn in a Vertue,
also, Captain Woody's circ in Low Key, Latts and Atts, similarly, Voss, Cimba,
Mr. Dow, in Scituate might be persuaded to part with Serrafyn.
Good luck.

[skaraborgcraft]

Yeah Bruce you would have no chance of building a V28 in 3 months cos we would want daily updates and lots of photos of progress!

Does this mean i can place an order for a completed hull with a single stick? It could not be done in Europe for the same figure unless you could source trees direct and mill them yourself...........and certainly not by me in 3 months.

[JimD]

...and certainly not by me in 3 months.

I think those were 1970s months. Inflation has made them a lot shorter now

[Kaa]

Just wondering what you would list as your favorite minimalist(ish) voyaging yacht for 2 relatively spartan people.

Remember, if one of those people is a girl, she gets to define what "minimalist(ish)" means :-)

Kaa

[JimD]

To give an idea of how long it takes the rest of us to build a boat, Charlie Whipple spent almost every day for two years (going by memory, can't recall the exact dates from start to finish) building his Sundowner Resolution. (Such a shame it was wrecked a couple days into its maiden trip.)

[TomF]

Yeah, MacNaughton's stuff comes to mind. Or if you're going up in length/pricetag, a Badger or a Wylo II. MacNaughton's website has some good stuff in articles etc. about what kinds of hatches, deck and cockpit usage etc. maximizes utility in a voyaging-design. Not that I've done it ... but he has.