The New Totalitarianism of Surveillance Technology

[Nanoose]

Well, maybe I'm the last one to the party, but this was news to me. I hear things like this happen in China, but in the US too? in NY's Union Square and Washington Square Park? Disneyland?

Tech makes so many things not only easy but the previously impossible now possible.

Where is the line between protection and privacy? Fear is such a powerful and ugly motivator. . .

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisf...nce-technology

http://www.privacysos.org/2012/august/pushing_back

[Phillip Allen]

there IS no line between 'protection' and privacy... it has become a 'protection' racket... we have given up our rights for the illusion of protection

[Kaa]

Well, maybe I'm the last one to the party, but this was news to me.

Heh. Smile for the camera and may I recommend you buy a copy of 1984 with cash and not with a credit card..? :-/

Kaa

[Gerarddm]

Timothy Leary seems prescient now, no?

[Kaa]

Where is the line between protection and privacy?

Protection? The word you're looking for is "control".

Kaa

[Chris Coose]

Can't count my loss of rights because I haven't experienced any but if what the spooks are doing what is necessary to keeps the likes of Mohammad Atta from beginning a mission out of the Portland, Maine airport, I'm good with that.

[Nanoose]

Ya, I'm good with that too.

I just wonder at what cost.

Am I willing to lose some of my freedoms for this benefit? Probably. But will my idea of how many I'm ok to lose and the the gov'ts idea of how many I have to lose coincide? Possibly not. Given a climate of fear, most will agree to most anything.

Are the threats real? To what degree? If a threat has only a .001% chance of occurring what cost am I willing to pay? An argument could be made for why pay any cost with such slim odds? Be realistic. Avoid the costs and carry on. Most of us live with higher odds than that of being hurt in a car accident each day, but we accept the risk and still use cars - benefit/risk analysis.

[Curtism]

It's ok, there's an app for that . . . down in Tampa anyway.

Highlights closest cameras. Red means the camera can probably see you (unless obstructed).

More info here:
http://rncctv.com/

[Nanoose]

Curt - what kinds of cameras is the app identifying? public/gov't cameras or individual/personal cameras?
(don't see how it could be individual . . . but sheesh? that much surveillance?!!)

[Kaa]

Ya, I'm good with that too.

I'm not willing to take their word for it.

To be "good with that" I'd need:

(1) Evidence that there is significant ongoing terrorist threat.
(2) Evidence that all that surveillance and other parts of the Big Brother world are effective in neutralizing this threat.
(3) Evidence that the surveillance framework is build to narrowly focus on preventing attacks and not on general fishing expeditions and "we'll just keep all the data, it might come in useful someday".
(4) Evidence that there are strong safeguards in place to prevent misuse of the surveillance network for political purposes, personal gain, etc.
(5) Evidence that there are brakes in place to prevent us from sliding down the slippery slope.
(6) Evidence that this is not going to be like this forever.

I'm not holding my breath.

Kaa

[Curtism]

Nanoose, they were installed by the city in preparation for the RNC this month. The systems were part of the $50 million that was budgeted for security during the 3 day event.

From the site I linked to:

Tampa has installed dozens of high-def CCTV cameras in advance of the 2012 RNC. The cameras are fairly easy to spot, but to save you the time we have canvassed the downtown area and mapped out the cameras. If you're using a mobile device we can show you the closest cameras to where you are and even where to look.

Aware Digital was awarded a multi-million dollar contract to install about 90 high-def cameras around the downtown area and a wireless network to connect the cameras. 63 of the cameras have pan/tilt/zoom (PTZ in CCTV lingo) capabilities which means that they can be remotely aimed and the zoom is an impressive 20x optical. 31 fixed point cameras have been installed, mostly to watch the Tampa Police Department and its parking garage. We have concentrated on mapping the cameras meant to watch you.

A few years back the city of Tampa tried the facial recognition technology in some of the night club zones downtown and those efforts have been tied up in courts by civil liberty groups.

I agree with your comment about fear being a powerful and ugly motivator and would add that absurd profits drive these sorts of technologies as well. When lumped together in this manner, those are pretty bad combinations.

[Kevin T]

This whole notion of freedom and or the loss of it is a crock, like we're on some slippery slope to some sort of dystopian nightmarish existence, guess what it's already here and we've been under it for a very long time. Cameras just seem to make it more real, but it's always been there.

Big corporations have tracked your whereabouts every time you've used a credit card, banks have had you by the short hairs for years if you have a mortgage or a car loan. The yoke they have on you through the fear they instill by what might happen if you default on your mortgage, or miss a couple of car payments, you become homeless and lack for personal transportation.

Most people get up every day and spend a bulk of their waking hours in the pursuit of income in order to allow their families to survive and thrive and other than a very thin slice of the population that has so much money that they couldn't even outlive a fire fueled by their own money in the form of shovelfuls of hundred dollar bills into the fireplace, most people are already on board with this, for lack of a better term, indentured servitude.

What's the alternative? Living like the Unabomber or some of our past notable forumites with tons of can goods and stockpiled ammunition, to me that seems just as restricting. You mind your own business, enjoy life as fully as you can, and maybe someday if you are lucky you can bounce a grandchild on your knee in your dotage. Life is a gift, the world is a big, broad, beautiful place and as one member's signature line so eloquently puts it, or words to this effect.

"In a world full of wonder, only man could event boredom." Terry Pratchett or some such.

[Garret]

I'm not willing to take their word for it.

To be "good with that" I'd need:

(1) Evidence that there is significant ongoing terrorist threat.
(2) Evidence that all that surveillance and other parts of the Big Brother world are effective in neutralizing this threat.
(3) Evidence that the surveillance framework is build to narrowly focus on preventing attacks and not on general fishing expeditions and "we'll just keep all the data, it might come in useful someday".
(4) Evidence that there are strong safeguards in place to prevent misuse of the surveillance network for political purposes, personal gain, etc.
(5) Evidence that there are brakes in place to prevent us from sliding down the slippery slope.
(6) Evidence that this is not going to be like this forever.

I'm not holding my breath.

Kaa

Now that's something I can agree with. In particular the "not holding my breath" part.....

[Nanoose]

It is interesting that Britain and Canada are looking at legislation to safeguard the issues you raise while the USA is not.

[Garret]

It is interesting that Britain and Canada are looking at legislation to safeguard the issues you raise while the USA is not.

Not surprising to a US citizen who has watched our rights get flushed down the drain since 9/11. This is being done by both parties - but spearheaded by Republicans with their "be afraid" campaign.

Unfortunately, our president has gone along with it - one of my biggest beefs with him.

[Kaa]

It is interesting that Britain and Canada are looking at legislation to safeguard the issues you raise while the USA is not.

Britain..!? The UK is a few years ahead of the US in the slippery slope race. The cameras are everywhere, composing the wrong kind of poetry is a criminal offense, and a tweet in bad taste gets you a visit from the police...

Kaa

[JimD]

Unfortunately, our president has gone along with it - one of my biggest beefs with him.

No president can afford to forget the grassy knoll.

[skipper68]

Everything you need to know about the NSA, but were afraid to know. BTW, this was just recorded!http://decryptedmatrix.com/live/the-...d-infographic/ The funny part is, not one comment.

[Glen Longino]

there IS no like between 'protection' and privacy... it has become a 'protection' racket... we have given up our rights for the illusion of protection

If you're not too busy whining, could you take a moment and make a long list of things you want to do that have been made illegal?
Or even a Short List?

[Nanoose]

Britain..!? The UK is a few years ahead of the US in the slippery slope race. The cameras are everywhere, composing the wrong kind of poetry is a criminal offense, and a tweet in bad taste gets you a visit from the police...

Kaa

So you didn't read the article then?

[Meli]

Britain has been watching ever since the thatcher days.
Example
In 2001 I was living in Salisbury UK in an apartment overlooking the cathedral in the centre of town (st Anne St)

About 10pm, I observed a young girl (about 19) stumbleing down the road, drunk and distressed.
I went out to see If I could help.
She said her "mates" had all run away and left her in town with no money to get home.
She was mentally disabled

So I offered to drive her home to one of the housing estates.
I popped my head in the local pub and asked Dave the publican where the estate was and explained where I was going and why.

I get the car out and off we go.
Just outside the ring road, I get the flashing lights and pull over.
The officer asked me who's car I was driving.
I explained that I rented it from the local garage.
He pops the rego number into his hand hels thingo and checkes it out.

Then he askes me what the story is with the girl and why have i picked her up.

He said they had watched her progression from leaving the Pub where her mates had left her, watched he talk to me (nearly a KM away) watched me talk to the publican and invite her into the car.

I explained, they said OK, but it's a rough estate did they want them to take her home?
Most british police are quite nice

I said No, that would probably upset her even more, and continued my journey.

They probable switched over to the Estate camera's and watched me drop her at her door too

WTH?? OK it's nice that they were keeping an eye on the lass But???? woah this level of surveillance is scary.
In the govt hands is scary, in private hands?? tripple scary.

[Phillip Allen]

those who want to control people promote this... who wants to control people?

[Meli]

There is control, and then again there is control.
Don't go there Phillip

[skuthorp]

Governments always want control, if they can they will. And the info is commercially valuable, if the government don't sell it one of their employees will or a hacker will steal it.
It's much easier and less dangerous for an 'intelligence' agency to watch their own citizens than scary groups from overseas who don't mind dying if they can take you with them.

[Garret]

No president can afford to forget the grassy knoll.

I was there last winter. Having seen all the coverage when I was in 3rd-4th grade, I was shocked at what an insignificant little building the Texas Schoolbook Depository is. Must be even back then the Creationist textbooks were skinny

Anyway, I get your point, but at what price will the prez be protected from a psycho? 100% coverage of all of us all the time? I find that far, far too Orwellian.

[purri]

As TD might advise: Build a Faraday Cage in your house, use only a local ATM linked directly to your credit union to withdraw cash to pay for everything. Don't buy into "bonus point" schemes. Turn off your cellphone and remove the sim card and battery when travelling, insert only to make/ interrogate messages as required.
Easy peasy.