Sail & Oar Homogenization / Why I'd Never Want A Snooty Tern.

[Yeadon]

Here's my dilemma. And this seems as good of a spot to explain it as anywhere.

I camp cruise consistently with a Sooty Tern and a Hvalsoe 16. Though I love Rowan and Bandwagon, homogenization isn't that interesting and I love that Big Food is completely different and unique.

Now ... I've thought about building a larger boat (as there are more people/animals/beings in my house these days), and because I'm itching for another BIG project. So I ordered the Arctic Tern plans for review. It's really a lovely design. But now I see that everyone and their mother is ordering the plans, too. They even have a thread. And why is that? Because James "Snooty" McMullen has declared the AT/Snooty Tern to be THE GREATEST GENUINE SAIL & OAR BOAT IN THE GALAXY. And people have begun to believe him. I don't blame them.

As back story, it's almost like McMullen is forever pounding the drums of war, and the natives have begun to believe that yes, in fact, we should go to sea (in a lug yawl'd Snooty Tern, no less) and gather in this unnecessary cause of likeness. To make things worse, Snooty McMullen himself says that if a greater sail and oar boat is ever invented, he'll part out Rowan for pennies on the dollar just to fund the new build. (Do you have no decency, McMullen? No honor? No love or respect for the boat that takes you to the sea and returns you safely home?)

He will leave you behind, people.

This reminds me of something I once read about loyalty. What creates it? What makes one person loyal to another? Is it because someone did something for you? No. It's because you did something for someone and it felt good. It was satisfying. And that makes you willing and happy to do it again. You are thus loyal to them. I believe this.

What did Rowan do to deserve the lack of loyalty?

End of backstory about Snooty McMullen.

Personally, I genuflect in glee toward Big Food and her contributions to my life. I'll never get rid of her, even if I eventually turn her into my one-man crabpot / fishing machine. (Genetically, it is what she was born to do. Sort of like a yorkie is meant to annoy, but in a positive way.) She's in the driveway right now, napping, waiting for an afternoon row off Shilshole.

Now, back to me, my favorite subject.

I'm thinking that the Yeadon's might look good in a Hvalsoe 19. In my mind, she's a long, sleek slingshot of a vessel, with a combination waterline/wetted surface/full-midsection & sail plan that'll always keep Patos Island in reach, wherever our San Juan adventures takes us.

But the Hvalsoe 19 does not yet exist. But once she does, it's my sense that McMullen will want one too, then come on the forum and claim the HVALSOE 19 IS THE GREATEST GENUINE SAIL & OAR BOAT IN THE GALAXY. And everyone will want one, too. I suppose this will be good for Eric. And I'd be happy for him. And James will be happy, I suppose, having just kicked Rowan to the curb for an interloper.

However, I'll then be left with just another white boat owned by the masses, sort of like James and Rowan.

It's enough to make a fellow go back outside, get the teak oil, and oil his well-worn peapod in preparation for another batch of camp cruises. Maybe someday McMullen will get that.



Up next, why is Pat Ford dour?

[Paul Pless]

Of course you could go anti-homogenization and get real ******* snooty and build your tern out of hewn planks fastened with rivets and roves instead of ply/epoxy. . .

[AJZimm]

Tim,

I hesitate to observe that this might be, partially at least, a case of two-foot-itis. That is, if my boat was just two feet longer I could have everything that is lacking in my current boat.

I'm not immune. I wonder if there is a boat out there that combines the present brilliant light air and rowing performance of the Alaska, with the ability of the Sooty Tern to carry more sail longer in heavier air. Maybe it's the HV19.

Also a consideration is aesthetics, which can't be defended rationally. I've been slow to warm to the aesthetic delights of double-enders. To my mind, the rudder hung on the after stem always looks like an afterthought. A transom-sterned boat seems to me to be a more natural home for an outboard hung rudder. Likely just prejudice on my part, but if you can't walk away from your boat without one last glance at it to admire it, then you don't have the right boat.

[rbgarr]

Here's my dilemma. And this seems as good of a spot to explain it as anywhere.

Tim,

LOL! If you posted this anywhere else on the web you'd get nothing but "WTF is this guy TALKING about???!"

Nice dilemma to have, wanting to build a new boat, eh? A bigger Welsford Walkabout, big enough for two to sail/row/camp-cruise would be a nice build for Margaret and me.

[Wayne Jeffers]

Mr. McMullen is certainly convincing ( ) that AT/ST is well-suited for his uses and his waters.

I think true homogenization would involve GRP hull and Bermuda sloop rig.

Wayne

[Eric Hvalsoe]

I like em all. Double enders, transom sterns. My mind bends both ways. I just focus a little bit more on, ah, the franchise.

[stromborg]

What would happen if you took "Big Food" and stretched her out in a couple of dimensions to create "Bigger Food"? Take everything the smaller version taught you and apply it to the next version. Of course it may also be time for something completely different, maybe something with a cabin, a Stone Horse or something...oh wait Ol' Snooty M has one of those already!

sigh

Clearly we are all destined to simply follow in James' wake

Steve

[TomF]

And the worst part is that J.*., would doubtless bastardize the Hvalsoe 19 by building in ply and goop, to keep the weight where Her Rowan-ness currently tips it. Debasing those diabolical buttock lines with the same chemical mess that makes Rowan all mono-cocky and smug.

Bigger Food would prolly be too heavy to row single-handed, but you could always just build (and lovingly apply teak oil to) a fleet.

[James McMullen]

Tim's right about the "loyalty" thing. I have no loyalty whatsoever to stuff, only loyalty to people (and for that matter only to some people).

You don't end up building over three dozen boats on your quest towards finding yourself just the right boat if you're easy to satisfy or cheerfully uncritical. On the contrary, I am cheerfully very, very critical indeed, which I think has turned out to be a good thing, or else I might still be laboring away under the dead weight of one of those sharpies or dories and suchlike that I had built along the road to redemption.

Rowan sorta shocked me when I realized three months after her launch that I didn't have any other boats in mind for the next one. I had finally found one that pushed every button and filled every slot. It was a bizarre experience. I think I was kind of mopey and at a loss for what to do with myself in my shop for a time. I ended up building some furniture and aimless crap like that to stave off the feelings of rootlessness in my shop routine.

So Rowan is kind of a Holy Grail for me. I like her a whole lot--if you hadn't guessed. But she's definitely not the right boat for everyone. She's overcanvassed for solo sailing, has no place to mount an outboard, is neither docile nor relaxed enough to be safe for a casual sailor, won't fit in a standard garage without a swinging-arm trailer tongue. . . .
I think my enthusiasm for her is occasionally intemperate, especially when I forget that not everyone has the same goals or desires that I do. I can get carried away.

But I'm not sentimental. I love the look of three-strand rope and tricksy splices and marlinspikery and homemade wooden blocks and all that, but I deep-sixed all of that stuff I had made on Rowan once I was convinced of the performance advantages of Stay-Set X double-braid. I've carved up my beautiful figured-wood thwarts to make it easier to sleep aboard. I snit-canned my glorious bronze Herreshoff anchor in favor of a Danforth that stows easier and sets better in my typical anchoring conditions. All of these things just passed my threshold of what I was willing to compromise in performance for the sake of aesthetics. . . .your own mileage will of course vary.

And I would sell Rowan in an instant if I found a design I liked better. So far it hasn't happened, and as much as I like Eric's HV-16, there are a few details that would likely eliminate the 19 outright for my own needs. If a meteor fell from the sky and crushed Rowan to smoldering shards tonight, I would almost certainly build a Rowan Mark II that is nearly identical in most ways, except for a few minor tweaks.

In fact, since I enjoy building boats every bit as much as using boats, maybe I should just sell Rowan after the boat show this September and build myself a fresh one. Take that, "loyalty"!

[Paul Pless]

In fact, since I enjoy building boats every bit as much as using boats, maybe I should just sell Rowan after the boat show this September and build myself a fresh one. Take that, "loyalty"!

maybe rake the stem out 6 inches longer or so. . .

[Thorne]

Too funny, guys! I can just see the confused looks on the faces of folks new to the WB Forum. "WTF?" they ponder....

[johnw]

Oh, go ahead and build a snooty tern. You know you want to.

[Gerarddm]

All Tim needs is some gizmo like a pair of fold-away stern boards that, when deployed, give him that extra two feet of LWL length. Sort like an IOR Matinicus, ha.

[jsjpd1]

Sounds like a Bigger Food is just what's needed to satisfy your larger crew needs and break up that monotonous landscape of Snooty Terns as far as the eye can see.

[Yeadon]

Tim's right about the "loyalty" thing. I have no loyalty whatsoever to stuff, only loyalty to people (and for that matter only to some people).

Wooden boats are not stuff. Primary assertion is absurd, and rejected.

You don't end up building over three dozen boats on your quest towards finding yourself just the right boat if you're easy to satisfy or cheerfully uncritical. On the contrary, I am cheerfully very, very critical indeed, which I think has turned out to be a good thing, or else I might still be laboring away under the dead weight of one of those sharpies or dories and suchlike that I had built along the road to redemption.

Rowan sorta shocked me when I realized three months after her launch that I didn't have any other boats in mind for the next one. I had finally found one that pushed every button and filled every slot. It was a bizarre experience. I think I was kind of mopey and at a loss for what to do with myself in my shop for a time. I ended up building some furniture and aimless crap like that to stave off the feelings of rootlessness in my shop routine.

A) That it took you 36 tries to get it right is not the issue, though it is worth a session in its own right. I would like to imagine Young McMullen meeting Snooty McMullen on Pelican Beach, and the two comparing boats.

"No, the best boats have hard chines."
"Ummmm. I'm not so sure about that. What is that? A Bolger?"
"It's a Glen-L Sharpie. The most glorious of all boat designs."
"Ummmm. Okay. Maybe you should tie that boat to a tree or something. The tide is coming up."'
"It's a waxing gibbous. There's no way the tide will get that high."

Ummmm.

B) Non-boats are stuff. You might as well built a television.

So Rowan is kind of a Holy Grail for me. I like her a whole lot--if you hadn't guessed. But she's definitely not the right boat for everyone. She's overcanvassed for solo sailing, has no place to mount an outboard, is neither docile nor relaxed enough to be safe for a casual sailor, won't fit in a standard garage without a swinging-arm trailer tongue. . . .
I think my enthusiasm for her is occasionally intemperate, especially when I forget that not everyone has the same goals or desires that I do. I can get carried away.

See also:
Daniel Noyes;
Slidercat;
Kenjamin;
Others wronged;
et al.

But I'm not sentimental. I love the look of three-strand rope and tricksy splices and marlinspikery and homemade wooden blocks and all that, but I deep-sixed all of that stuff I had made on Rowan once I was convinced of the performance advantages of Stay-Set X double-braid. I've carved up my beautiful figured-wood thwarts to make it easier to sleep aboard. I snit-canned my glorious bronze Herreshoff anchor in favor of a Danforth that stows easier and sets better in my typical anchoring conditions. All of these things just passed my threshold of what I was willing to compromise in performance for the sake of aesthetics. . . .your own mileage will of course vary.

And I would sell Rowan in an instant if I found a design I liked better. So far it hasn't happened, and as much as I like Eric's HV-16, there are a few details that would likely eliminate the 19 outright for my own needs. If a meteor fell from the sky and crushed Rowan to smoldering shards tonight, I would almost certainly build a Rowan Mark II that is nearly identical in most ways, except for a few minor tweaks.

For instance, the parts where you use plywood.

In fact, since I enjoy building boats every bit as much as using boats, maybe I should just sell Rowan after the boat show this September and build myself a fresh one. Take that, "loyalty"!

May Rowan have sweet revenge when you most expect it, for it may be the only thing that saves her. To the rest of you, I say good luck.

[James McMullen]

42 tries, not 36. I wish it had only taken 36.

Oh, go ahead and build a snooty tern. You know you want to.

I know of a nice one that is coming up for sale. Save you some time.

[James McMullen]

Oh, and I do have a stash of perfect cedar planking stock if I wanted to build a Rowan in trad. lap. . .but I think I've been convinced by that McMullen guy that there are good reasons to stick with glued-lap despite how much I personally enjoy traditional lapstrake technique. It will be interesting to see which way I fall when the matter genuinely comes to a head.

[jsjpd1]

I know of a nice one that is coming up for sale. Save you some time.

That just hurts to even think about. I love building, but I'm not sure I could stand to be without Sparrow while building Mk II. Just think of all the good sailing and rowing that would get missed.

Jim

[Canoeyawl]

I think I've been convinced by that McMullen guy that there are good reasons to stick with glued-lap despite how much I personally enjoy traditional lapstrake technique. It will be interesting to see which way I fall when the matter genuinely comes to a head.

It is the sitting (and sleeping) in a constant puddle of bilge water that finally got my attention.

edit;

I am cheerfully very, very critical indeed, which I think has turned out to be a good thing, or else I might still be laboring away under the dead weight of one of those sharpies or dories and suchlike that I had built along the road to redemption.

But I'm not sentimental. I love the look of three-strand rope and tricksy splices and marlinspikery and homemade wooden blocks and all that, but I deep-sixed all of that stuff I had made on Rowan once I was convinced of the performance advantages of Stay-Set X double-braid. I've carved up my beautiful figured-wood thwarts to make it easier to sleep aboard. I snit-canned my glorious bronze Herreshoff anchor in favor of a Danforth that stows easier and sets better in my typical anchoring conditions. All of these things just passed my threshold of what I was willing to compromise in performance for the sake of aesthetics. . . .your own mileage will of course vary.

Critcal thinking indeed, I reached the same conclusions after a few tries and regret that it took me so long to discover the advantages of Dacron, sail track, a pedigreed sailmaker, increased beam and the added reserve buoyancy of a transom stern.
But alas, I am too old for another do-over. Life has gotten in the way.

[Y Bar Ranch]

I bought my Arctic Tern plans back when they were still edgy.

[johnw]

I bought my Arctic Tern plans back when they were still edgy.

Yeah, I like Iain's early stuff, before he got all corporate.

[Yeadon]

Antonio Dias is sooooo punk.

[johnw]

Antonio Dias is sooooo punk.

Yeah, stuff like this is right on the edge:



And I love the way Sparkman & Stephens, the folk duo, championed the poor man's boat. Maybe you could build one of these instead of Rowan, they're less common:



...but harder to row.

[James McMullen]

You know, given that genuine sail and oar boats make up far less than 1% of all the typical boats you see out there, I'm not entirely sure that "too many Sooty Terns" is even remotely a valid premise. If there were even as many as 10 in Seattle, they'd still be outnumbered 400:1 by wave runners and ski boats and 4000:1 by aluminum outboard skiffs.

So this entire thread is built on a flimsy foundation indeed.

[KMacDonald]

Looks like James is "creating a market ' for Rowan.

[davebrown]

I think Yeadon should stretch it two feet and call it Soul Food. Build only while listening to James BRown.

Hit Me.

[Mad Scientist]

42 tries, not 36. I wish it had only taken 36...

More evidence that Douglas Adams was right about the number 42!

Tom

[seedy]

One way to get back on top is to build a Zooty Tern, gold hardware, use too much material, a line of Stacy Adams soles for keel protection.

[Breakaway]

Do a Sooty Tern--adding 2-inches to each station --and instead of oil and varnish, paint it Caribbean style, with lots of pinks and greens and yellows. Be nothing snooty 'bout that.

Kevin

[kenjamin]

Yeadon,

If you could build a Caledonia Yawl which could secretly lower and engage an electric motor assist pod while sailing so that it would be faster in all conditions than a Snooty Tern, then you have a boat large enough to bring along all your favorite family members and drive James completely crazy when sailing in his company. You of course you will be able to out-row him as well but you will need to stand off far enough to avoid him hearing the whirl of your electric assist. You know that in spite of our adversary history, I am somehow still fond of old James but if you could somehow pull off my suggested build without his supervision or knowledge, then I would gladly fly out to the west coast for the maiden race with James and Rowan. If we could load the CY down with five or six people and still pull away from Rowan, that would be like a Mastercard commercial for me – priceless! Maybe we could get Minn Kota or Torqeedo to donate the electric components. I'll check into that for you.

[TerryLL]

Tim,

The boat you need is something like the Silver Tern, an Arctic Tern stretched to almost 24'. No way that slouchy Rowan could possibly keep up.



http://aquapx.com/site/#/gallery/silver-tern/

[Gerarddm]

I love the look of that gunter rig.

[David G]

Resistance is Futile. You will be assimilated.

[Eric Hvalsoe]

[QUOTE=AJZimm;3503331]Tim,

I hesitate to observe that this might be, partially at least, a case of two-foot-itis. That is, if my boat was just two feet longer I could have everything that is lacking in my current boat.

Alex are you speaking metaphorically or do you sometimes wish Hornpipe was longer?
Stability questions aside - do you wish you had more storage or accomodation volume on that boat?

I assume that Don was pretty closely following the whitehall model, and that the boat is a good combination of wetted surface and length for rowing, carrying capacity, and speed. When I was considering how much sail to put on my new rig I looked towards alaska as a reference but was blown away by how much sail she carried, with the same beam as the 16. I did not want to get very near that number. Don put all that area up to get good speed under sail - with two sails more equal in size than would be the case of a 'yawl rig'. Seems that this would keep the center of effort a little lower than one large main and a kicker mizzen of the same combined area, a good thing given your beam. Your rig has a lot of combinations and a lot flexibility but I sometimes felt that the lug yawl combinations were handier. My apologies if I just butchered the alaska design - I think it is a great boat.
Eric

[Hwyl]

I would think it would be relatively easy to redesign an Oughtred boat (they all look the same to me) with a small heart shaped transom, perhaps garnished with a hint of tumblehome.

I think there is a multihull in your future

[Michael Beckman]

[JayInOz]

I think Yeadon should stretch it two feet and call it Soul Food. Build only while listening to James BRown.

Hit Me.

I was thinking fatter in the midsection and needing more fabric to compensate and calling it Fast Food

James Mc would you seriously sell Rowan before you built and trialed a replacement? JayInOz

[Chris-on-the-Boat]

For those who have forgotten, this is rumoured to be McMullen's first boat. Which he left at the alter, so to speak. It also explains why he is so vehemently against outboards, having rejected their use as a cult-like activity. A picture speaks a thousand words...

[Dryfeet]

Or you could just go for broke.... and bring Big Food docilely along on a line astern!

[neilm]

This is the first time I ever met James and set eyes on Rowan. The first thing I noticed was this boat was so much faster then the others. I also remember it was the most beautiful boat I had ever seen. I knew before James even landed that someday I would build this boat. James did not even have to say even a word to convince me however when he told me this was his 42nd boat that statement alone was very convincing. I am a year into construction now and will be posting some photos of my Sooty Tern in a few weeks. In the meantime I will enjoy this good-hearted ribbing that James deserves just for being right most of the time.

I must confess, I have drank the Kool-Aid.... Though it tastes more like beer to me.

Neil

[esbutz]

If there were even as many as 10 in Seattle, they'd still be outnumbered 400:1 by wave runners and ski boats and 4000:1 by aluminum outboard skiffs.

Or possibly 11...I recently received my planes in the mail.

[Yeadon]

Or you could just go for broke.... and bring Big Food docilely along on a line astern!

Lovely boat ya got there. What if you made the main a junk rig?

[Yeadon]

I think Yeadon should stretch it two feet and call it Soul Food. Build only while listening to James BRown.

Hit Me.

Hmmm, actually, maybe my next boat could be called Big Payback.

[Dryfeet]

Lovely boat ya got there. What if you made the main a junk rig?

A junk rig would work, maybe even better!

[Chris-on-the-Boat]

Where else can you go for both boat design critique and James Brown?

What? Huh! Get Down!

[James McMullen]

. . .along on a line astern!

I'd just like to take a moment to point out that there is indeed ample precedent for towing a broken-down old peapod behind Rowan.



(See the original thread here)

[Paul Pless]

Hey Paul - I tend to think of the Three Amigos' threads as the King James version of the small boat bible

Is that McMullen on the right???

[Yeadon]

This is an interesting question.

[darroch]

Is that McMullen on the right???

Nope. Too short.

[Yeadon]

It's a little known fact, but McMullen is actually the short one. He's not a drop over 5'5, but like Sylvester Stallone he wears prominent lifts. Eric and I are pretty much the same height.