Thistle conversion

[w8znx]

Hello all

here goes nothing or what,

so i am getting older ( mid 60's )

most of the time solo day sail / camp cruse

out of CSYC on lake St. Claire

did the North Channel a few years ago

61 year old Thistle class dinghy

getting to be more than i can handle,

last week got caught 6 miles away from home

big wind shift, hard beat home

half size jib, two reefs in main, a good 120 lbs of sand bags either side of CB trunk

it was harry edge hike out luff keep her moving don,t stall

don't make a mistake or im in the water all the way home

am getting tired of living in fear

capsize i can get her back up again, but getting back in is hell to pay

i love this boat have spend hundreds of hours working on her

she is not race worthy, so will not be worth enough to sell and buy something else

keep thinking Wayfarer

but don't want to start all over again with a boat i do not know

do like the Thistle design most of all the molded wood hull

so am i simply a fool to start thinking ( CONVERSION )

know every square inch of the hull, after 6 years of work all the rot is gone

yea sure

so thinking sell the rig the racing sails i do not use

re rig her, bit of deck, heck cut down the CB put in kick up rudder

do something crazy like a Texas 200

thanks
es yours truly
mac

dit dit

[michigangeorge]

Check out post #7 in the "gaff rig trailerable, centerboarded 18'-20' daysailor" thread in the design section. I could see your Thistle hull set up like the D-Myst in the photo :-)

[Wayne Jeffers]

I've thought that Thistle would be a great candidate to convert to partially-decked with a less aggressive rig. For more civilized rig ideas, I would suggest looking at the rigs shown for Oughtred's Fulmar design. The Fulmar is very similar in hull dimensions and shape to the Thistle hull.

If IO comes through with the promised half-decked option, Fulmar is going to be my next build project.

Wayne

[Thorne]

As above, a minimalist conversion might be best to start with. Leave the CB alone, build a new kickup rudder, mast, sail rig (balanced lug?) and either put in a canvas-covered foredeck framework or solid foredeck and sidedecks. Rig a pullover rope bar-rung ladder that can be reached from a lanyard from outside the hull, so getting back in won't be a concern.

Consider a 2hp Honda as the boat is just too large to row well against any sort of wind or swell, but of course have oars for smooth-water rowing. This would give you the ability to explore and boat-camp in areas that otherwise might not be wise to travel to.

From what I've read and heard, not wanting to live in fear (and I completely agree with ya) and doing the TX 200 are pretty much opposites... ;0 )

You could put the new mast forward to eliminate the need for a jib, and balance the rig so the CB only needs to be partway down, i.e. angled back to reduce overall draft / depth issues.

[Hwyl]

Here you go, http://shoal-waters.moonfruit.com/ shoal Waters was originally a Fairey Falcon, a boat very similar to the Thistle. I would not go as far as Charles Stock, but it's got to provide some food for thought.

[Bobcat]

I had a Highlander, big brother to the Thistle, years ago that had been converted. There was a cuddy cabin forward and the cockpit had been enclosed. Of course, the Highlander in it original state had a foredeck and side decks.

The rig was cut down. She was a fine weekender

[five guys named moe]

They are such good boats. I have thought that a partially decked Thistle would make a nice daysailer/camp cruiser. The key i think would be trying to do it while still keeping the boat light. It would be nice to have a deck to sit on and shed some water. As above, I would not cut down the centerboard. Smaller rig and sailplan. You might even be able to just cut the existing rig down a bit. How does she sail in lighter air with the reefed main and small jib?

[Ben Fuller]

Thistle is set up for 3 people hiking at 180 sf. I can see how it might be a handful solo in F4 or more. Trap dinghies (505) go 150 sf for two, non trap 120 (Windmill, Snipe) or so, and heavy single handers like a Finn down to 100, light ones like a Laser 75. This gives you some parameters When we did the 17'loa Harrier settled on just over 100 sf since the hull was pretty big and designed with lots of flare for balance. Works pretty well with the ablity to triple reef a highly efficient fully battened lug. I might be tempted to end up with a similar rig on the Thistle, but you'd need to move the mast forward. Might have area up in the 120 sf range as the Thistle is no light weight. If you can get rid of the jib, you can dump the shrouds which is always nice.

[Rich Jones]

I had a Highlander, big brother to the Thistle, years ago that had been converted. There was a cuddy cabin forward and the cockpit had been enclosed. Of course, the Highlander in it original state had a foredeck and side decks.

The rig was cut down. She was a fine weekender

I did the same thing to my Highlander a couple of decades ago. Added a cabin and self bailing cockpit, cut down the rig. Turned it into a nice little family boat.

Sold it to a guy from New Jersey. Bobcat, I don't suppose you lived in Jersey in the late 80's?

[Bobcat]

I did the same thing to my Highlander a couple of decades ago. Added a cabin and self bailing cockpit, cut down the rig. Turned it into a nice little family boat.

Sold it to a guy from New Jersey. Bobcat, I don't suppose you lived in Jersey in the late 80's?

No my Highlander was from Southern California, owned by Rex Brandt, a water color painter of some repute. The work was done at the Lido Shipyards.

When I got the boat I put the original rig back on. Great for light air. A handful single handing in a breeze. I learned to reef early and often

[w8znx]

Thistle is set up for 3 people hiking at 180 sf.

heck
it's 191 square ft main and jib
on a 17 ft long 515 lb boat

Sandy designed the boat for summer afternoons on Lake Eire
when the wind dies

keep thinking cat ketch like the Core Sound 17
two short masts, two booms no standing rigging

you should have heard the howls
when i posed the question
on some dinghy / Thistle sites

thanks gang
yours truly

mac

[Binnacle Bat]

heck
it's 191 square ft main and jib
on a 17 ft long 515 lb boat

Sandy designed the boat for summer afternoons on Lake Eire
when the wind dies

keep thinking cat ketch like the Core Sound 17
two short masts, two booms no standing rigging

you should have heard the howls
when i posed the question
on some dinghy / Thistle sites

thanks gang
yours truly

mac

Mac

Good to hear from you again.

I'd keep the centerboard the same size as it is, although the weight is a bit of a bear. I've contemplated a solid wood one with just enough lead to sink it properly, as opposed to the 75 lbs of a class spec one.

I found a kickup Thistle rudder on ebay a few years back, needed work, but is fine. I believe they were an option from D&M.

I have an old photo of a Thistle that was decked over from way back, I'll try to dig it out of the archive and post it.

My main has two reefs, each about 3' deep. I also have a storm trysail, that used to be a thistle jib (old, before the big roach in the foot came in). I took off the jib hanks, and lashed on slugs to fit in the track of the mast. Lash the tack at the base of the mast, hoist with the main halyard, and sheet with the spinnaker sheets. Works a treat, and no extra hardware or rigging to speak of. The only problem is the boom and mainsail are all over one side of the cockpit or the other.

I have an old woodie D&M International 14 hull that I am thinking about rigging as a cat yawl. That's more of a long term project, but I'm old enough to realize that my years of single handed thistling are numbered. The I-14 is small enough to row, up to a point. A fair bit of wood and epoxy will be required to hold up unstayed masts in either boat.

This should be a fun discussion.

Allan
Thistle #1609
In the hills.

[Binnacle Bat]

Decked thistle from long ago. Note that such modifications are not class legal. Looks like the rig is pretty standard for the time. Much easier on the butt, and able to heel further without shipping water.



The deck would add some weight, but thistles have little enough freeboard that that shouldn't be a big deal. Were I to do it I'd put a tad more crown to the deck and raise the mast step an inch or two. More head room under the boom wouldn't hurt.

Allan

[johnw]

Why hasn't James McMullen come along to convert you to the True Faith of the Cat Yawl? Seriously, a cat yawl with a much larger main than mizzen has some advantages. You can sit head to wind under the mizzen while you sort out the main.

A Thistle with this rig would leave a Caledonia Yawl in the dust.

[Binnacle Bat]

Thistle is set up for 3 people hiking at 180 sf. I can see how it might be a handful solo in F4 or more. Trap dinghies (505) go 150 sf for two, non trap 120 (Windmill, Snipe) or so, and heavy single handers like a Finn down to 100, light ones like a Laser 75. This gives you some parameters When we did the 17'loa Harrier settled on just over 100 sf since the hull was pretty big and designed with lots of flare for balance. Works pretty well with the ablity to triple reef a highly efficient fully battened lug. I might be tempted to end up with a similar rig on the Thistle, but you'd need to move the mast forward. Might have area up in the 120 sf range as the Thistle is no light weight. If you can get rid of the jib, you can dump the shrouds which is always nice.

Two years ago at Small Reach, I spent half the time with a reef in the main, which reduced the sail area to about 150 sf. Hardly any of the other boats reefed at all during that time, and the Thistle still was responsive, fast, and required no hiking out. In other words the wild stallion became a tractable, but lively, mare. The Thistle has a powerful beamy hull, and at 120 sf she would be a slug in light airs.

Why hasn't James McMullen come along to convert you to the True Faith of the Cat Yawl? Seriously, a cat yawl with a much larger main than mizzen has some advantages. You can sit head to wind under the mizzen while you sort out the main.

A Thistle with this rig would leave a Caledonia Yawl in the dust.

I have no doubt that a CY rig on a thistle would beat a CY, but I think a slightly smaller rig, say 150 sf, compared to the CY's 170 sf, would be better for Mac. The CY is a slightly bigger hull underwater, with big overhangs and a little more freeboard amidships. The beam and waterline are comparable. The CY in the photo has very shallow reefs to my eye. I'd want them half again as deep on a single handed thistle.

On a thistle I'd step the mizzen plumb on the inside face of the transom, just far enough off center to clear the rudder. A slightly smaller mizzen could have two sheets, one to each quarter, one as in the picture would probably require a boomkin.

I relate to Mac's concerns, as I also am North of 60, and single hand a Thistle a lot.

I've no experience with luggers, are they easy to reef, or do you have to drop everything into the boat, reef and hoist? A jib headed or gaff sail one just slacks off the halyard(s) and takes up on the reefing pennants, ties up the nettles one can reach, and you're on your way.

Allan

[johnw]

Two years ago at Small Reach, I spent half the time with a reef in the main, which reduced the sail area to about 150 sf. Hardly any of the other boats reefed at all during that time, and the Thistle still was responsive, fast, and required no hiking out. In other words the wild stallion became a tractable, but lively, mare. The Thistle has a powerful beamy hull, and at 120 sf she would be a slug in light airs.



I have no doubt that a CY rig on a thistle would beat a CY, but I think a slightly smaller rig, say 150 sf, compared to the CY's 170 sf, would be better for Mac. The CY is a slightly bigger hull underwater, with big overhangs and a little more freeboard amidships. The beam and waterline are comparable. The CY in the photo has very shallow reefs to my eye. I'd want them half again as deep on a single handed thistle.

On a thistle I'd step the mizzen plumb on the inside face of the transom, just far enough off center to clear the rudder. A slightly smaller mizzen could have two sheets, one to each quarter, one as in the picture would probably require a boomkin.

I relate to Mac's concerns, as I also am North of 60, and single hand a Thistle a lot.

I've no experience with luggers, are they easy to reef, or do you have to drop everything into the boat, reef and hoist? A jib headed or gaff sail one just slacks off the halyard(s) and takes up on the reefing pennants, ties up the nettles one can reach, and you're on your way.

Allan

I think if you're on your own in a small boat away from shore, dropping, reefing, and raising is the best method. After all, you're not racing, and you've got the mizzen to keep the boat under control head to wind.

Remember that the balanced lug isn't as efficient as the sloop rig. Yes, the rig I'm talking about has as much sail as a Thistle's rig, but it's lower, and if you put three sets of reef points in that sail, you've got a lot of options.

And I'm not at all sure that the Thistle has less stability. A boat with a transom is much easier to make stable than a double ender.

[Binnacle Bat]

I think if you're on your own in a small boat away from shore, dropping, reefing, and raising is the best method. After all, you're not racing, and you've got the mizzen to keep the boat under control head to wind.

Remember that the balanced lug isn't as efficient as the sloop rig. Yes, the rig I'm talking about has as much sail as a Thistle's rig, but it's lower, and if you put three sets of reef points in that sail, you've got a lot of options.

And I'm not at all sure that the Thistle has less stability. A boat with a transom is much easier to make stable than a double ender.

I rarely race, and most racers have no reefing set up.

In the Thistle I never drop the sail to reef. Let the jib fly, round up into the wind til all way is lost, put the helm over 40° or so, and ease the main sheet so that the boom is out at 45° or so. She will gently luff, as she goes backward, and the rudder turns her off the wind. The main starts to fill, pushing her forwards and into the wind again. No mizzen required. Go forward, reef, tie your nettles and sail away. In significant wind I skip the aft-most nettles. There is a hook for the tack cringles, and the clew pennants are led to the forward end of the boom. halyard winches are in the base of the mast. I've done this on the open ocean with a sea running, and on mountain lakes.

The thistle has broad quarters, which allow her to plane, but the stem is as plumb as you can draw with a T-square and triangle, and the entry is quite hollow. There isn't much freeboard at all amidships. The LOA on the CY is 2.5 feet greater than the thistle, and the beam a couple of inches more. The Thistle has 13 to 21 sf more sail area. The mast is close to 24' long, stepped at the height of the gun'le.

I still think that with 150 sf, of most any rig, and a Thistle will beat a CY.

Allan

[johnw]

Yes, I'm familiar with Thistles, and have sailed them. I agree the Thistle will be faster than a CY even under the rig you propose, but I doubt they'd be racing. The question in my mind is, if you have a rig that's easy to reef, why use such a small rig?

[Binnacle Bat]

The original post was about modifications to a thistle for someone single handing who isn't as spry as he used to be. I'm keeping my rig for the moment. I'm in the same situation. Looking at all the options.

Allan