America the land of the free

[Rum_Pirate]

Oregon says it owns YOUR rainwater, and the county has sentenced a man to 30 days in jail and fined him over $1500, for the supposed "crime" of collecting rainwater on his own property.

The man's name is Gary Harrington, and he owns over 170 acres of land in Jackson County. On that land, he has three ponds, and those ponds collect rainwater that falls on his land. Common sense would say Gary has every right to have ponds with water on his 170 acres of land, but common sense has been all but abandoned in the state of Oregon.

Much like California, Oregon is increasingly becoming a collectivist state. You didn't build that! The government built that! You don't own that! The government owns that! That rainwater that just fell on your land? That's the government's rainwater, and you're going to jail if you try to steal from the government!

That's the explanation from Jackson County officials, who initially granted Harrington "permits" to build ponds back in 2003. Yes, in Oregon you actually need to beg for permission from the government just to have a pond on your own land. But the state of Oregon revoked his permits a few years later, after he had already created the ponds, thus putting Harrington in the position of being a "water criminal" who was "stealing" rainwater from the state.


Learn more: http://www.naturalnews.com/036615_Or...#ixzz23LIsQXoD



• California has declared war on small, local fresh milk farmers and distributors (http://www.naturalnews.com/036614_James_Stewart_Ventura_county_raw_mi...).

• Michigan has criminalized small, local ranchers and animal operations (http://www.naturalnews.com/035585_Mi...rms_raids.html).

• A city in Michigan has also tried to criminalize home gardens (http://www.naturalnews.com/032960_Ju...gardening.html).

• The city of Tulsa, Oklahoma sent out a "destruction crew" to chop down a woman's edible landscaping garden of over 100 varieties of foods and medicinal herbs (http://www.naturalnews.com/036234_edible_landscaping_medicinal_plants...).

• Oregon has criminalized one of the most important practices of permaculture, capturing rainwater to restore life to a local landscape.

What's the pattern here? Total state domination over all resources -- land, water, food, medicine and more.

Learn more: http://www.naturalnews.com/036615_Or...#ixzz23LIOzSkY

What gives?

[Norman Bernstein]

What gives?

What gives? Rum Pirate has decided that www.naturalnews.com is the only source of information needed to make a judgment on a local story.... Any potential 'other side of the story' is without any merit

[Willin']

Apparently it's all true, except that the landowner never had permits or approval to build the ponds, is a repeat offender and violated long established riparian rights laws.

It's all about the spin.

http://www.mailtribune.com/apps/pbcs...news/207260314

[Rum_Pirate]

What gives? Rum Pirate has decided that www.naturalnews.com is the only source of information needed to make a judgment on a local story.... Any potential 'other side of the story' is without any merit

Many on this forum (Democrats appear to be in the majority) appear that any potential 'other side of the story' that does not praise the current POTUS and his party is without any merit.


Mr B Naturalnews site is but one, I suggest that you have a look here : http://www.google.com/search?client=...UTF-8&oe=UTF-8

there are over half a dozen sites, am sure that there are more.

The

[Meli]

America, land of the free?
I don't think so

highest incarceration rate in the world
The incarceration rate in the United States of America is the highest in the world. As of 2009, the incarceration rate was 743 per 100,000 of national population (0.743%).^[2] In comparison, Russia had the second highest, at 577 per 100,000, Canada was 123rd in the world as 117 per 100,000, and China had 120 per 100,000.^[2] While Americans only represent about 5 percent of the world's population, nearly one-quarter of the entire world's inmates have been incarcerated in the United States in recent years.^[3] Imprisonment of America's 2.3 million prisoners, costing $24,000 yearly, and $5.1 billion in new prison construction, consumes $60 billion in budget expenditures.

[Ian McColgin]

Our over-incarceration is one issue. The right wing drumbeat actually has supported the jailing of so many minority people and just loves the for-profit private jails that are simply a running sore of constitutional violation. But the lead story about Harrington's knowing and willful theft of water was written to deliberatly lie to the public about water law in states (mostly west of the Mississippi) that follow water use by prior approptiation rather than (mostly east of the Mississippi) riparian rights. Since the OP pretends to be such a legal scholar as to reprint this tripe, I'll leave it to him or her to indulge in a modicum of self-education.

[Rum_Pirate]

The right wing drumbeat actually has supported the jailing of so many minority people . . .

Erm, I wonder if these people are sentenced in accordance with the law?

I mam sure that the guilty should be sentenced in accordance with the law.

If you can't do the time don't do the crime, comes to mind.

. . . But the lead story about Harrington's knowing and willful theft of water was written to deliberatly lie to the public about water law in states (mostly west of the Mississippi) that follow water use by prior approptiation rather than (mostly east of the Mississippi) riparian rights. Since the OP pretends to be such a legal scholar as to reprint this tripe, I'll leave it to him or her to indulge in a modicum of self-education.

Where did I claim (or pretend to be) to be such a legal scholar? I asked "What gives?" Nothing more, just a query.



One further query, since the state (allegedly) owns the run off water, does that make it liable for the erosion it causes to the individuals property and the responsibility of reinstating it?

[Norman Bernstein]

Mr B Naturalnews site is but one, I suggest that you have a look here : http://www.google.com/search?client=...UTF-8&oe=UTF-8

there are over half a dozen sites, am sure that there are more.

As is often the case, the google link produces endless copies of the original story.

Have you bothered to look at any links that give the other side of the story?

[Meli]

A word in your shell like R--P,
Check your sources, these bastards are ruthless

[Gerarddm]

Mike Adams of Natural News has had some interesting things to say about health issues, but he has increasingly turned bumper-sticker right about social issues. One must seek the gold amidst the dross.

The cited case brings to mind instances of farmers' objections to "government control" when they are fined for pollution from runoff from their fields. Libertarians might have you believe that they should be free to use their land as they see fit and to that I say, what stuff. I will be damned to codify disrespect for the earth.

[Rum_Pirate]

As is often the case, the google link produces endless copies of the original story.

Have you bothered to look at any links that give the other side of the story?

It doesn't matter if I do or don't.

If I merely ask a question there are many that try and shoot me down ( I am reminded of Peirre the famous french flying ace at this juncture - I will send you a pm ).

[John Smith]

Many on this forum (Democrats appear to be in the majority) appear that any potential 'other side of the story' that does not praise the current POTUS and his party is without any merit.


Mr B Naturalnews site is but one, I suggest that you have a look here : http://www.google.com/search?client=...UTF-8&oe=UTF-8

there are over half a dozen sites, am sure that there are more.

The

I think it's all horsefeathers. Everywhere one needs permits to do this sort of thing. The bigger problem is voter suppression, which you probably support.

[John Smith]

Our over-incarceration is one issue. The right wing drumbeat actually has supported the jailing of so many minority people and just loves the for-profit private jails that are simply a running sore of constitutional violation. But the lead story about Harrington's knowing and willful theft of water was written to deliberatly lie to the public about water law in states (mostly west of the Mississippi) that follow water use by prior approptiation rather than (mostly east of the Mississippi) riparian rights. Since the OP pretends to be such a legal scholar as to reprint this tripe, I'll leave it to him or her to indulge in a modicum of self-education.

And it doesn't seem to bother many that a lot of those in prison are not guilty. That, it seems, means the prosecution routinely lies to juries.

[Rum_Pirate]

The bigger problem is voter suppression, which you probably support.

How do you arrive at that conclusion?

[Rum_Pirate]

What gives? Rum Pirate has decided that www.naturalnews.com is the only source of information needed to make a judgment on a local story.... Any potential 'other side of the story' is without any merit

The original site where I stumbled upon Mr Gary Harrington

Fracking is Thirsty By Brianna Panzica | Sunday, August 12th, 2012 This week, we learned July was the hottest month in recorded history. No matter where you are, you've felt it. The heat has chased people all across the country into the sanctuary of an air conditioned building or to the nearest pool. At the same time, a drought this summer extended to cover well over half of the United States. Earlier this week, Jeff Siegel told you about Gary Harrington, who was arrested in Oregon for collecting rainwater. This was even after he had taken efforts to get permits for his storage. Advertisement Profit from the Greatest Markup in History Over the next ten years, up to 500 trillion cubic feet of natural gas will flow from Canadian shores to an energy-starved China for a record profit. The deal — agreed to in November — hands one small group of companies (and smart shareholders) payments four times larger than what any domestic energy company could ever get away with charging. The full story — and details about how you could take advantage of it today — are allright here in your free report. Now, I could launch into a long-winded rant on the liberties at stake... But that's for another day. Right now, the issue all comes down to H2O. On the most basic level, having water to drink is crucial for survival. The average person can live roughly eight weeks without food, but without water the body can shut down in three days. If you're lucky. Since the summer has been so hot, people have needed water even more. And not just for drinking... also for staying cool. Farmers have been desperate for water as well. The huge drought has caused a struggle for the agricultural industry. With such hot conditions, the farmers in the Midwest regions – where the drought is most concentrated – have needed more water to keep their crops from drying up. They can't fight the elements, but they can try to reduce damage as much as possible. Still, the backlash extends further. The United Nations' Food Price Index for July showed a food price increase of 6%. But the energy industry needs the water, too. This drought is taking place at the height of the U.S. shale boom... a boom made possible by fracking, which uses sand, chemicals, and – you guessed it – water. Lots and lots of water. Oil and gas demand has been higher this summer as people crank the air conditioning in an effort to escape the oppressive heat. But the fracking companies are struggling to find enough water to keep their drilling momentum. Advertisement Free at Last: 430 Billion Barrels of American Oil The U.S. Department of Energy estimates 430 billion barrels of American oil are "technically recoverable" — but only if the right technology can extract it. That technology is here. Not only that... Companies are already using it to increase production as much as 1,000%! Get the whole story right here. Some areas have actually stopped allowing the companies to take water from lakes or rivers. It's just become too precious of a resource. And as a result, wells are being delayed. Natural gas prices are rising. Oil prices are going up too. That's without mentioning the vast amounts of water needed for nuclear cooling. There isn't one solution. Unless we have more water, we can't supply the drinking needs, the agricultural needs, and the energy needs of the nation. But technology might be able to help with at least one of those. Keith Kohl has been telling you about a company he discovered that doesn't require the EPA's estimate of 2.3 to 3.8 million gallons of water per well. In fact, it doesn't require any at all. It's a dangerous game when such a basic necessity is on the line. But if fracking companies could be taken out of the running, the problem might not be so bad after all. Good Investing, Brianna Panzica @brianna_panzica on Twitter

[Ian McColgin]

Eagle Point man jailed for illegal water reservoirs
By KVAL News Published: Jul 29, 2012 at 2:58 PM PDT

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EAGLE POINT, Ore. -- An Eagle Point man was sentenced Wednesday to 30 days in prison for constructing three illegal reservoirs of water on his property, officials from the Oregon Water Resources Department said.

Gary Harrington was convicted on nine counts of water misuse after he built dams to collect water from channels that would have flowed into a local river.

In a press release about the charges OWRD said that he had constructed two 10-foot dams and one 20-foot dam, and had enough water stored up to fill 20 Olympic-sized pools. He also constructed boat docks to run boats in the reservoirs and stocked them with fish for recreational fishing.

While it is legal to collect rainwater off of surfaces like roofs or tarps, property owners need to obtain permits before altering or collecting flowing bodies of water.

Here is a full account of the court hearing and the charges from the OWRD:



July 27, 2012 - Harrington Conviction and Sentence for 11 Years of Illegal Water Use

On Wednesday July 11, 2012, a Jackson County Circuit Court Jury convicted Eagle Point resident Gary A. Harrington on nine counts, each related to the unauthorized use of water. Under Oregon law, all water is publicly owned, and those who wish to use it for their own purposes must obtain a water right permit issued by the Oregon Water Resources Department (OWRD). State law grants various exceptions to this requirement, including an exception for collecting precipitation water that gathers on an artificial impervious surface, such as a rooftop or parking lot; in rain barrels, for example.

Harrington stored and used water illegally by placing dams across channels on his property and preventing the flow of water out of these artificial reservoirs without obtaining a water right permit. The height of each dam varies; two dams stand about ten feet tall and the third stands about 20 feet tall. The total amount of water collected behind these dams totals about 40 acre feet; enough to fill almost 20 Olympic-sized swimming pools. These man-made reservoirs feature boat docks, boats, and were stocked by Harrington with trout and Bluegill for recreational fishing.

The state first identified Harrington’s illegal water use more than ten years ago and initiated enforcement action to discontinue his illegal use of water. After numerous attempts by OWRD and the Watermaster to achieve voluntary compliance, the Department enlisted the assistance of the Oregon State Police in 2002. Citations were issued, and Harrington pleaded guilty to several violations. He was assessed a nominal fine and ordered to drain the three reservoirs, which he did. However, Harrington again closed the headgates in 2004 and refilled the reservoirs. As a result, OWRD and the Oregon State Police submitted reports to the Jackson County District Attorney’s Office alleging additional violations of Oregon water law. That office filed misdemeanor charges against Harrington, and in 2008 he pled guilty to one count. He was issued another fine, placed on one year probation, and was again ordered to drain the reservoirs.

According to testimony in the most recent trial, the day after Harrington’s probation expired, he again closed the outlet valves and refilled the reservoirs. The District Attorney’s Office enlisted the help of the Oregon Department of Justice, charges were once again filed in Jackson County Circuit Court, and on July 11, 2012, a jury found Harrington guilty of all nine counts.

On Wednesday the Court sentenced Mr. Harrington to 30 days in jail and three years’ probation, and imposed a $1,500 fine. Judge Timothy Gerking also ordered that the headgates holding back the water be opened and kept open with locks and chains. He also ordered the dams to be breached after the water is drained.

“Mr. Harrington has operated these three reservoirs in flagrant violation of Oregon law for more than a decade,” noted OWRD Deputy Director Tom Paul. “We rely on the judicial system to maintain the rule of law and the Court’s conviction and sentencing in this case has done just that.”

Officials with the Department, in conjunction with the State Police, plan to visit the site during the next several days in order to confirm Harrington’s compliance with court orders.

# # #

[Rum_Pirate]

Hmm, this is a county with 19" per annum on average.

Does the State collect ALL the water from the (In the past, water managers have concluded that the runoff is a tributary of nearby) Crowfoot Creek, Big Butte Creek its tributaries and Big Butte Springs?

I wonder how much runs off into the sea per annum?

He pointed out that he also stores the water for fire protection. I wonder if the state would save his property if and when there is a wildfire.

How much or the 87,708,000 gallons of rain fall is lost in evaporation?


The man applied for a permit to retain just over 0.75% of 1% (I did the calc) of the rainwater that fell on his land and was turned down.

Overall, it sounds like spiteful authorities to me in denying somebody to collect less than 1% of the rain that falls on his land.
Mind you that is just my personal opinion.

[Ian McColgin]

Rum, you clearly need to study some water law before you fall for the right wing jerks. In the relativly dry west, for agricultural development and settlement to work, and with population pressure and other uses like mining, fisheries, etc, ALL water is allocated by a system of permits. Unlike the east and many other jurisdictions, you do NOT own the water that crosses your land, falls on it, or is under it. That's partly because what you do with that water can have an immediate impact on what your neighbor can do.

There are major issues with the appropriations since in many areas the are taking permits that vastly exceed the supply if entities use their allocations fully. It's a very complex set of issues where the law really can use some reform, especially in measurement and usage requirements, that's not helped by some jerk who engages in decades of violations at the expense of his neighbors.

[John of Phoenix]

Out here we may fight over whiskey but we kill over water.

- Old west adage.

[Rum_Pirate]

Ian, I am not disputing what you say.

However I do find it strange that in building reservoirs he isn't having a continuous 'one' use of water, as he is storing it (collecting 0.75 0f 1% of all the water that falls on his land) in reservoirs.

This could (perhaps?) be commandeered in the times of severe drought for public (Municipal water supply) use.

If as is reported in various areas he has docks and boats, I suspect he may be providing additional recreation facilities and attendant employment in the area.

/ Jackson County Homepage / About Jackson County / Quality of Life
While Jackson County has seen tremendous growth in the last 10-20 years, what residents prize most are the small-town values of their communities, along with the cultural diversity usually found in larger cities.


The County is blessed with moderate weather. Unlike many regions in Oregon, Jackson County only receives around 19 inches of rainfall a year. While the weather is mild — average temperature in January is 39.2° and 72.7° in July — there are four distinct seasons.


The area is served by the Rogue Valley International-Medford Airport, offering convenient and affordable travel on several major airlines.


The median home sales price in Jackson County was $201,550 in 2009. In 2008 (the latest figure available), the median household income in Jackson County was $42,027 and the per capita personal income was $34,506.

[Norman Bernstein]

Hmmmm it wasn't quite as what was represented, in the OP, was it......

Why am I not surprised?

[ljb5]

The man applied for a permit to retain just over 0.75% of 1% (I did the calc) of the rainwater that fell on his land and was turned down.

If his permit was denied, he shouldn't have built the reservoirs.

Overall, it sounds like spiteful authorities to me in denying somebody to collect less than 1% of the rain that falls on his land.
Mind you that is just my personal opinion.

If every land owner along the river collected just 1% of the water that falls on, or crosses, their property, what would be the cumulative effect on the river?

Communities have been managing water rights for over a century. Over a hundred years ago, Mark Twain famously said, "Whiskey is for drinking, water is for fighting over." Everyone should understand the importance of water management.

[Rum_Pirate]

Hmmmm it wasn't quite as what was represented, in the OP, was it......

Why am I not surprised?

The original post asks "what gives"? i.e. why deny a 1% usage of the rain that falls on his land.
the initial post I read suggested that he had applied and was granted and later revoked.

What was misrepresented in the OP "What gives?"

[John Smith]

How do you arrive at that conclusion?

Your posts seem to deny thisi is a problem.

Bottom line: do you support what is happening in Ohio, the voter ID laws passing in many states, and/or the purging of voter lists from secret files?

[Rum_Pirate]

If his permit was denied, he shouldn't have built the reservoirs.



If every land owner along the river collected just 1% of the water that falls on, or crosses, their property, what would be the cumulative effect on the river?

99% of ALL rainfall would go into the river.




PS or evaporate or drain into the earth.

[John Smith]

Water makes for an intersting conversation. Trying to catch as much rain as one can seems to be an expected consequence of extended droughts. I am still puzzled by a nation that can send a 2000lb rover over 300 million miles, land it on Mars, and get such lovely photographs and other interesting things sent back to earth thinks a simple system of pipes, pumps and man made resevoirs is "too big" a project.

Or that making a car that doesn't get so damned hot sitting in the sun is beyond us.

[ljb5]

99% of ALL rainfall would go into the river.


PS or evaporate or drain into the earth.

Read more carefully.

[Garret]

99% of ALL rainfall would go into the river.




PS or evaporate or drain into the earth.

So what happens when he starts selling the water in the ponds? That could move it to another location. What if 100 people each take 1% or the water & use it for irrigation?

As has been said here many times, the western US has very complicated water laws to deal with just this sort of thing. There are thousands of stories of people who have diverted water & left people downstream high & dry. While there's no doubt the laws usually protect the big guy (like so many laws in the country), laws are needed where water is in short/constrained supply.

Speaking of water & irrigation, maybe someone from the west or midwest can explain this to me. While traveling through Illinois, Iowa & Wisconsin recently I saw 100's of farms irrigating with above ground sprayers during the middle of the day. I was always taught that mid-day was the worst time to water crops, as 1) much more evaporates than when the spraying is done early AM or in the evening & 2) that the water droplets can act as small magnifying glasses & & can actually burn the leaves. ??

[Norman Bernstein]

The original post asks "what gives"? i.e. why deny a 1% usage of the rain that falls on his land.
the initial post I read suggested that he had applied and was granted and later revoked.

What was misrepresented in the OP "What gives?"

Way to spin it.

Ever consider the effect on the abutters, and on the general ecology of the land outside his property? how about a breach of his dams, causing 20 Olympic swimming pools worth of water cascading downstream.... And woe to anyone down there.

This is a very classic libertarian rant: the repudiation of laws designed to protect the community. Take a look at places where there are NO zoning laws, or similar legislation.... And think about the effect it might have on YOU, if one of your abutters decided to erect something either offensive, or potentially hazardous, close to YOUR property.

ain't no man an island.

[wardd]

rum has no concept of the commons

i have a question, how well engineered were these dams and what damage could they do if they failed?

[Nicholas Carey]

Apparently it's all true, except that the landowner never had permits or approval to build the ponds, is a repeat offender and violated long established riparian rights laws.

It's all about the spin.

http://www.mailtribune.com/apps/pbcs...news/207260314

Water law in the west has a long history and a lot of precedent. Riparian rights don't apply in general.

The usual standard is "first in time is first in line" aka "The Colorado Doctrine" as set forth in Wyoming v Colorado. Further developments in the endless Arizona v California.

You can start here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_l..._United_States

Then move one to

http://cms.oregon.gov/owrd/pages/law/index.aspx
http://www.oregon.gov/OWRD/LAW/docs/...I_All_2009.pdf

Under Oregon law, water is treated the pretty much like game animals: it's the property of the State. You need a permit to draw it from any source:

---

Under Oregon law, all water is publicly owned. With some exceptions, cities, farmers, factory owners and other users must obtain a permit or water right from the Water Resources Department to use water from any source— whether it is underground, or from lakes or streams. Landowners with water flowing past, through, or under their property do not automatically have the right to use that water without a permit from the Department.

---

This is nothing new: it's been more-or-less (often less ) settled law for more than a century.

The law is pretty much the same in Washington State:

http://www.ecy.wa.gov/programs/wr/ri...ight-home.html
https://fortress.wa.gov/ecy/publicat...ns/0011012.pdf
http://www.ecy.wa.gov/programs/wr/ri...2009-2ndEd.pdf

[Rum_Pirate]

rum has no concept of the commons

i have a question, how well engineered were these dams and what damage could they do if they failed?

I believe and agree that building permits are necessary to build dams.

If they fail the owner/engineers have a duty of care. and would be as responsible as if they had received permission to be built.


Mind you, in the overall scheme of things I don't see 20 olympic swimming pools worth of water divided into three separate ponds, all failing at the same time and releasing all their contents instantaneously due to inadequate construction. BUT it could conceivably happen.


Two fish swam into a wall,

"Damn", said one.

"Dam" said the other.

[JimD]

Mr Harrington doesn't sound like anyone I'd like to live downstream from. But the number of individuals, companies, and governments I could say that about is probably a very long list.

[Rum_Pirate]

Mr Harrington doesn't sound like anyone I'd like to live downstream from. But the number of individuals, companies, and governments I could say that about is probably a very long list.

Three ponds about 2 acres each set in 170 acres.

It also depends on the terrain and where they are located in the 170 acres.

[Tom Montgomery]

I am wondering why an expatriate takes such interest in American politics? Life must be awfully dull on that tiny isle in the Caribbean.

[JimD]

Fresh water resources have been an international issue for a long time and its only going to become more of one. Watched Chinatown on tv not long ago.

[Rum_Pirate]

I am wondering why an expatriate takes such interest in American politics? Life must be awfully dull on that tiny isle in the Caribbean.

I. I am not an expatriate.

2. I can discuss US politics (the bits I am interested in ) on this forum without fear of real recrimination/victimization.

3. In posting on US politics, there will be some discussion(?)

4. If I tried to discuss our local politics that occurs here tiny isle in the Caribbean, there would be little interest from other forumites in those threads.

5. American politics, as I have said in several posts before, directly affect our local economy.

6. It was very cloudy today here. You can (often) tell the weather here by the number of my posts.

Does this go some way to satisfying your wondering?

[JimD]

... In posting on US politics, there will be some discussion(?)

...

OK, I'm a bit skeptical, but suppose we try it and see how it goes?

[Rum_Pirate]

OK, I'm a bit skeptical, but suppose we try it and see how it goes?

So taking your suggestion aboard, I guess that I should drop the subjects of my posts on the grounds that Mr Obama as current POTUS and the Democratic Party are not part of US politics.

I do note that you state your location as Duncan, Vancouver Island.
Does this mean that you are not an american? I dare not assume anything on this forum.

[JimD]

...I do note that you state your location as Duncan, Vancouver Island.
Does this mean that you are not an american? I dare not assume anything on this forum.

No, not one of those debt ridden trigger happy Americans. I still spell colour with a 'u', write cheques and not checks, and pronounce 'sorry' in a way that always breaks them up.

[Rum_Pirate]

No, not one of those debt ridden trigger happy Americans. I still spell colour with a 'u', write cheques and not checks, and pronounce 'sorry' in a way that always breaks them up.

[skuthorp]

The subject of water rights is writ internationally on several large rivers such as the Jordan, the Brahmaputra, the Mekong amongst others. The countries upstream, Israel, China, Turkey, claim the right to build dams and retain water regardless of the consequences downstream. Wars have been fought over less and will be in the future.

[Tom Montgomery]

I. I am not an expatriate.

2. I can discuss US politics (the bits I am interested in ) on this forum without fear of real recrimination/victimization.

3. In posting on US politics, there will be some discussion(?)

4. If I tried to discuss our local politics that occurs here tiny isle in the Caribbean, there would be little interest from other forumites in those threads.

5. American politics, as I have said in several posts before, directly affect our local economy.

6. It was very cloudy today here. You can (often) tell the weather here by the number of my posts.

Does this go some way to satisfying your wondering?

Yep.

[Rum_Pirate]

[Tom Hunter]

Rum,

America may be the land of the free. It's certainly the land of property rights. He was stealing water that is owned by the state. If he had been stealing trucks, animals or logs it would be the same. If you don't like it move to Oregon and campaign for a change to peoples water rights.

I don't think you will get a lot of sympathy from people that own water rights, since you will be proposing confiscation of thier property, but you're welcome to try.

[Osborne Russell]

What's the pattern here? Total state domination over all resources -- land, water, food, medicine and more.

What gives?

Over-population of a certain magnitude can't be sustained, even temporarily, any other way.

In any case, it's already been acheived by control over the means of transmission, as with Microsoft.

Do you really expect that in a population of this magnitude, any significant number of people are going to get water from their own well? Wood from their own forests? Have you ever heard of the Bureau of Reclamation? Do you think you are going to rustle cattle in Mexico, drive them to Montana, get rich, build a cabin and play horseshoes with your grandchildren, freely drinking from every creek you may come near in your joyous rambling through the free and open countryside?

[Phillip Allen]

I never opened this thread until now... and I have some strong opinions about the op

[Phillip Allen]

water rights are prickly... I tend to believe in property rights but must occasionally except some things

still, government 'ownership' of water can't be much different than government ownership of air... and the attendant tax (potential) on both

allowing the government to 'own' anything needed for the people's very survival is asking for trouble

[Ian McColgin]

" . . . government 'ownership' of water can't be much different than government ownership of air . . ." [#48]

Actually, three centuries of first colonial and then US law has established that "property rights" are not quite that simple. Even in the east, riparian rights never meant that you can do anything at all with water on your land. Mining rights are not only seperable from surface land use rights, but the surface owner often does not have any right at all to whatever is below.

[skuthorp]

Here I think the landowner only has rights to the top 15ft.
I don't know if they've decimalised the legislation.