283 CC engine, water in 2 cylinders and oil

[rideaubill]

Hi all, I had been having some issues with my 1959 wood boat engine. It overheated last week, needed new impellers. At the same time it was backfiring out of the carburetor at higher revs. Repaced the pump gears. Then the backfiring got worse and the engine ran very rough under load. I went to replace the spark plugs and cylinder 4 and 6 were full of water, checked oil and it also had water in it. There was also enough water in the bilge under the engine at the time. I am going to check compression tomorrow however not sure where to go from.here, gaskets? Cracked block? Worse?? Any help would be great

Thanks

Bill

[Soundman67]

I think you have a blown head gasket at best. it could be cracked head or block too. tough to diagnose which one it is without taking it apart.

[skaraborgcraft]

+1 of the above. A compression check depending on the accuracy of the unit used will give some indications,but it sounds like the head will have to come off at the very least.

[TerryLL]

If you're lucky this job will only require pulling the heads and replacing the head gaskets. If unlucky, as in cracked block, then it's a bit more work and lots more money.

Another thing to check are the exhaust manifolds. A crack there can account for both the water and the misfiring.

[wdbeyer]

You'll probably also want to check your intake manifold gasket (between the heads and the intake manifold) if its not the head gaskets. Was the engine winterized properly? Some of this environmentally-freindly antifreezes are suspected of eating gaskets (some bacteria thing). The intake manifold may have a crack in it as well. Good luck.

[Lew Barrett]

What everybody said here is what to expect, including everything from blown gaskets through warped heads to considerably greater damage. Water in the oil is not a happy event, just as water in the cylinders can be catastrophic, so anticipate a poor diagnosis and hope for a good one. Small block GM motors are durable and tough; maybe you're lucky.

Just a word about impellers though. Impellers are a normal wear item that require routine replacement. The manual will probably tell you to change them out annually, but many get by doing it every couple of seasons. In any event, checking them for wear and broken vanes is something that should be routinized, and once you take one out, best practice is to replace with new. Yours will almost certainly have lost some rubber, so don't forget to try and pick the pieces out of your heat exchanger or the downstream part of the system, even if you find that it's nothing more than gasket replacement. Count the vanes and try to find all the pieces you can.

[Kudzu]

Chris Craft 283, right? I had a similar issue with that motor, mine started missing and i found wet plugs. I was thinking head gasket or cracked head and it turned out to just be the exhaust manifold had gone bad and water was getting into the cylinder. Replaced the manifold it that cured it. I THINK, but not 100% sure that I had water in the oil too. It's just been to long to say that with certainty.

Are both wet plugs on the same side of the motor?

Next year same thing started and I found water in one or two plugs on the other side of the motor. Replaced that manifold and that was that.

By all means run a compression check because that is a symptom of head gasket or cracked block too.

[Lew Barrett]

He was overheating and found deteriorated impellers which suggests damage from heat rather than a manifold leak to me. Compression check will certainly reveal information, but it seems to me from the description that the probable cause is a cooling failure. Marine engines produce a vast amount of heat because they are under constant high loads. Things can happen very fast if they get away from you in that situation.

Indeed, as you point out, the manifolds are wet and rely on a on a seal to keep back-flow of coolant out of the cylinders. Gasket failure sounds to me like it could be a secondary event/result in this case, resulting from the over-heating condition but less likely to be the contributing factor given Bill's report.

[Peter Malcolm Jardine]

Fifty year old engine.... all of the above. Take it apart and see why.

[rideaubill]

Hi all....and thanks for the help. Have not had a chance to work on it yet but some more info. The. Engine was not running to well before it overheated. Runs fine idling or even when you rreved it up, but when I put it in gear it would run rough and backfire out of the carburetor, after overheating it became much worse. That is when I put on new in new impellers cleaned up and re gapped the points and replaced the spark plugs. It was then I found the 4th and 6th cylinder to be full of.water, water poured out when I pulled the plugs. I am going to take.The exhaust manifolds off tomorrow to check. What should I look for after it is off besides a broken gasket? I also thought it might be an idea to run it with the valve.cover off first to see.whatever I can see. I'm. Not a, mechanic but understand the basic works of.This.engine so going deeper.is not.something I have some before

Thanks again for.all this advice
Bill

[Breakaway]

I'm thinking along the same lines as Lew. You overheated. Add coulda warped the block or head to the list of possibles.

kevin

[Kudzu]

.... It was then I found the 4th and 6th cylinder to be full of.water, water poured out when I pulled the plugs.

That doesn't sound like just a bad manifold. Being adjacent cylinders I am now leaning to at least a blown head gasket and maybe a crack somewhere, or worse.... That much water is a serious issue. Compression check is in order but sounds like your likely to need a mechanic if you don't do your own work. Without seeing the motor it's just a guess though.

[chuckt]

I vote for head gasket and possible warped head as well. It is not a big deal to take the head off. Not a big deal to find an auto machine shop to check the head. I recommend Dave at Van Ness Engineering http://www.vannessengineering.com/ to order your parts because if you do, he will be glad to help you on the phone with questions. He is extremely helpful and will talk you through any issues and help you dignose. (and his price is as good as anyone else)

Get Dave to give you the order for tightening the head bolts. I don't think it matters in what order you loosen them but I followed the order (in reverse) when I took mine off just to be safe.


Good luck!

[rideaubill]

That doesn't sound like just a bad manifold. Being adjacent cylinders I am now leaning to at least a blown head gasket and maybe a crack somewhere, or worse.... That much water is a serious issue. Compression check is in order but sounds like your likely to need a mechanic if you don't do your own work. Without seeing the motor it's just a guess though.

Hi took the valve covers and the manifold off this morning. there was some water under the valve.covers. When I took the manifold off.There was a hole on the underside in about the middle portion on the underside in a well area, could this be it? I have some pics but can't seem to upload them here

[Gib Etheridge]

Upload your pics to Flickr.

On Flickr;
Left click on the pic.
Right click on the new pic and select med. 500 or med. 640.
Copy and paste.

[rideaubill]

Sucess, here are some pics of where I am at. I took the valve covers and manafold off. I have found a hole in the bottom, however not sure if this is a water port area? There is water on the valve side where this hole was found, could this be it or should i go further with thye head? As well does anyone have in on torque specs for putting any of this back together, rockers were also quite loose.

[Cuyahoga Chuck]

I don't think you have found the answer yet. If you look at the end ports you'll see the rusty color. Those are water passages. The small port in the middle is a heat riser. Exhaust gasses pass thru' there to heat the manifold below the carb for better fuel vaporization. You'll need to have the holes in the manifold heliarced welded. Pushing exhaust gasses into your motor isn't going to do it any good.

[rideaubill]

so I guess my next thing is the take the heads off and inspect the head gasket? and yes will also get the hole welded. Oh the joy. as well does anyone have engine spes for a 283 or know where I can find them. Need to know bolt tighening specs when I put this back together. I guess I should take the heads into a shop to be inspected? As well If I do have a cracked block, where should I be looking to find a crack? would it be really obvious. I would think that this exhaust hole had bee the reason I was having carb backfires and rough running prior to finding water in the engine?

[rideaubill]

I don't think you have found the answer yet. If you look at the end ports you'll see the rusty color. Those are water passages. The small port in the middle is a heat riser. Exhaust gasses pass thru' there to heat the manifold below the carb for better fuel vaporization. You'll need to have the holes in the manifold heliarced welded. Pushing exhaust gasses into your motor isn't going to do it any good.

So what are the 4 holes either side of the heat riser, this is the gas intake? The rusty holes at the two ends are pluged on my manifold, see pic

[Canoeyawl]

So what are the 4 holes either side of the heat riser, this is the gas intake? The rusty holes at the two ends are pluged on my manifold, see pic

Yes, the "four" holes (actually eight) are for the intake fuel/air charge. Those "rusty holes" are the normal passage for cooling water to the raditor on a standard chevy or GM application. In an automotive application they would be ported through the manifold and coolant distributed from each head through those ports (in the manifold) to the thermostat and then to the radiator. However in your application the system has been modified for marine application and a different intake manifold is used blocking those ports. Note the elbows and hoses going into the heads from the ends...
There is coolant in the heads and your manifold is used to block the original ports, and a coolant leak into the crankcase is certainly possible there. It is a very common leak in the automotive configuration.
A compression check will reveal a operational problem with a head gasket, but not neccesarily a coolant issue. At this point I would do a compression check for data and then just pull off the heads and inspect. It seems the likely problem.
(You are going to need a "new" manifold because of the heat riser transfer port problem).

[willin woodworks]

I think you need to assume that you have a blown head gasket. You are not going to diagnose this problem without pulling the head. Start there.

I hate to be blunt but I'd bet the whole pot on a head gasket.

Do you have the book for the engine? You're gonna need torque specs to put this thing back together.

[willin woodworks]

pretty boat by the way.

[rideaubill]

thanks, I like the boat! nope I do not have the engine specs, any idea where I can get them? beyond a blown gasket could the head be warped at all? Dumb question but i guess I do a compression check before I take the head off? any other cause if i donyt have compression beyond blown gasket or worst fear a crack? Sorry to be such a pain, but I am getting into new for me territory

[Canoeyawl]

A crack or two is likely.
You will want to disassemble the heads and have them magnafluxed to rule that out.
This will mean at least a "valve job" and more than likely a resurface, valve guides, and new exhaust valves while you are there. Sharpen up your checkbook...

Be cautious that the pushrods and valve lifters (if they come out) go back in the same holes. Small wear patterns are created over the life of the engine and those bits prefer to go back where they were.

edit to add; cracks are pretty routine in head work and generally easily repaired

[willin woodworks]

start by pulling the head where your problem is. I am assuming the wet cylinders are side by side. If the gasket is blown it will be obvious. No reason to pull the other head yet.
Mark all the rods so they go back in the same place as someone suggested. everything wants to go back where it came from.
Take the head and lay it upside down on the bench being careful not to drop it or bang it around.Set it on an old towel or wiping rags. Clean all the old gunk of the mating surface and lay a reliable straight edge corner to corner in each direction. If its warped you'll know. It probably is. Take it to a good engine repair joint and have it miked and planed. Doesnt need to be a marine engine joint. Any good repair shop can do it. You're gonna need to lap and reseat the valves or have it done. it's not gonna be cheap.
If the gasket isnt blown; look at the walls that separate the cylinders. If theres a crack it too will be pretty obvious.
No matter what you've got a toasted manifold that may or may not be weldable and you need to find the book and get the specs. I'll go out on a limb and say that unless you've got a big bag of cash lying around, you're season's over.

[Peter Malcolm Jardine]

I have a couple of these engines, this one is just about ready to put back in.

[rideaubill]

I have a couple of these engines, this one is just about ready to put back in.

I will see what I can do with mine, but maybe a new engine maybe in order. pulling a replacing is something I am more comfortable with than getting inside haha! What kind of pricing would I be looking at? can always email me if you'd rather ottawabill@hotmail.com. aslo, if you do some rebuilding, do you know where I can get 283 engine specs for torquing once I put the heads and manifold back on?

[Kudzu]

I think you could just search for the 283 Chevy specs and get the torque requirements. It is a Chevy motor with a marine conversion so the torque would be the same I am pretty sure.

[rideaubill]

duh..that was easy...got them thanks!!

[Canoeyawl]

I have a couple of these engines, this one is just about ready to put back in.

I think his engine is flywheel forward...

Here is a good manifold for sale

http://shipwrecksalvage.net/cart/chr...50-p-1597.html

[nedL]

Yep, pretty much all the SBC torque specs (and gasket sets) are the same - 283, 305, 327, 350 CID so those things are easy to find. Those C.C. 185 marine conversion parts will likewise also fit on those different CID blocks.

[rideaubill]

Hi All:

Ok now my engine is in pieces! Manifold is off, as I have sated I have a hole in the bottom, will take it to a shop to see if I can have it welded.
Water jacket is off, don’t see and issue with it.
Head is off, yup gasket is broken. Brocken between cylinder 4 and 6, just where I had water in the cylinder. Can’t see any cracks in the head or block, but do have some rust that formed inside the cylinder from the water getting in.

So I would take it that I should clean up everything, replace the gaskets and put this back together? Is it worth taking the other head off, or should I leave sleeping dogs lay? Didn’t see any issue on the other side as well I would image if I was having issues on both sides the engine would not run at all?

I have all the torque specs to tighten ever thing back once I get the gaskets and plug weld. But one think I am unsure of is, do I need to do anything special when tightening the rocker arms?
On last question, as stated I have some surface rust around the cylinders, (wd-40 and a rag to remove?)

Am I all on the right track? As I said this is deeper than I have ever go into an engine, luckily these old engines are pretty straight forward from what I can see.

Thanks again to all how have helped me get this far.

Cheers

Bill

H

[rideaubill]

Oh and one more thing, I did on your advice, muber and diagram everything so I can put back eack bolt and arm to it's original location

Bill

[willin woodworks]

Not sure what you mean by tightening the rocker arms? You re going to have to adjust all the valves after the head goes on in any case. Have you checked the head to see if it's warped?

If you're this far into it it can't hurt to pull the second head and replace the gasket. You're going to have to buy a gasket set anyway right? Or leave it be; depends how adventurous you're feeling. I'd do it just cuz, but I might be crazier than you, but if it ain't broke, don't fix it. Your call.

All the surface rust can be cleaned up with some steel wool and a little oil.

[Canoeyawl]

Have the heads checked (magnafluxed) for cracks...

[rideaubill]

Not sure what you mean by tightening the rocker arms? You re going to have to adjust all the valves after the head goes on in any case. Have you checked the head to see if it's warped?

If you're this far into it it can't hurt to pull the second head and replace the gasket. You're going to have to buy a gasket set anyway right? Or leave it be; depends how adventurous you're feeling. I'd do it just cuz, but I might be crazier than you, but if it ain't broke, don't fix it. Your call.

All the surface rust can be cleaned up with some steel wool and a little oil.

Thanks! I am thinking to take off the other head since I am already into it, Guess I dont want to but this is the time right ...or maybe do the one and work on the other after the boating season!

How do I tell if the head is warped? There were no gaps when before I took it off, and a straight end across it seamed to be sitting well. Dont have tons of money so looking for the best but cheapest solutions

will also spend some time on the carb since it is now in my gargage.


Yes I meant adjusting the valves, no idea how to do that, any good place to look?

When you say cleaning with oil are we talking typical motor oil or something finer, machine oil, wd40 etc.

And last question, is it feasible to think I can have the exhaust manifold welded to seal up the hole?

[willin woodworks]

To check the head you need a machinists straight edge. I thas to be perfectly straight, not just s ruler that you have in the shop. The head has to be perfectly clean so you cn mike it with feeler gauges. Put the straight edge corner to corner and side to side and check the clearances under the straight edge. They will vary but you need to know what the spec tolerance is. Did you get the book on this engine yet?

Adjusting the valves isnt diffucult but if you've never it done it I'm not sure I'm the one to try and explain it to you and I'm not afmiliar enough with the engine to offer anything but generic advice.

WD 40 is fine but I prefer real oil like 3in1, just another of my quirks.

Take the manifold to a good machine shop. If it's weldable they'll weld it. If not they'll just shake their heads and smile.

[Canoeyawl]

Hi All:

Head is off, yup gasket is broken. Brocken between cylinder 4 and 6, just where I had water in the cylinder. Can’t see any cracks in the head or block, but do have some rust that formed inside the cylinder from the water getting in.

A blown gasket between cylinders does not neccesarily let water in. It must go to a water passage for that.
Cracks are not always visible to the naked eye, the heads should be magnafluxed to rule that out.
Note that on your engine the flywheel is forward and the numbering system and firing order may be backward from an automotive application. Note also that the direction of rotation may also be opposite.
These are seemingly small details now but will play an important role when you are adjusting the valves and setting the timing.

[Breakaway]

WD 40 is fine but I prefer real oil like 3in1,

WD40 is fish oil; 3 in 1 is petroleum. Dead fish, dead dinosaur...both real oil

Kevin

[willin woodworks]

That WD40 is made from fish oil is a great and enduring urban legend. It is mostly mineral spirits and mineral oil with some inert ingredients. WD40 will contaminate motor oil and most petroleum based grease so I try to keep it away from the inside of engines. I know lots of people mist their cylindrs with it for winter storage because it is great at displacing water but I think it's bad practice.
I make no claims or assertions as to whether my prejudices to WD40 are sane or rational......but it aint fish oil...

[rideaubill]

WD40 is fish oil; 3 in 1 is petroleum. Dead fish, dead dinosaur...both real oil

Kevin

Fish has worked well hahaha! Cleaned up everything well. Now to take my manifold and head to my local wood boat guy. I will have the head checked, see if they can weld my manifold and if all goes well order new gaskets.

Do you reccomend using a gasket sealer?

after that I will bug the heck out of everyone for valve adjustment and timing hehehehe....crossing my fingers!!

[Peter Malcolm Jardine]

Take a good look at the block around cylinder number four and five... both sides. If you see a line about two inches down from the deck of the block, and it looks like a crack.... it is. Most of the time they break out, rather than in, but there is where you might have your problem. You can get an engine shop to check your heads, and give them a skim... true up the gasket surface. It could be a cracked head, but a crack in a marine block is common as hell, especially small block chevy.

The rot in the exhaust baffle of the manifold is common to this engine. You can get it brazed or cast iron welded. It will happen again. Look for a replacement manifold as a spare.

Yes, use a gasket sealer... specifically this stuff, but not on the heads. All the threads on your head bolts should be cleaned, then oiled before retorqueing.

Valve adjustment is done by determining when the valve is 'at rest' as in not under load. You rotate the engine a full revolution and adjust valve lash in sets. The valves that are not under load, the pushrod should be just tight enough to rotate with your fingers. The lifter will take up the slack, if they are hydraulic. If solids are being used, the lash is set the same way, but with a feeler gauge between the rocker and the valve top.

[rideaubill]

Thanks Peter! I will inspect the cylinders tonight, all the detachable parts are in my garage as the rest is in the boat, I was to go down to clean the rust out of the cylinders and will have a good look once I am there, are you saying that the blown gasket may not be the issue? It is torn not only between the cylinders but at a water hole as well between the two cylinders. Going to take the parts to Ayling marina in Merrickville on Sat for Steve's advise and to order new gaskets etc, and maybe check the head. I don't know if he has the capibilities to weld my manifold but I am sure he will know who can in the area. Oh the joy ha!

[rideaubill]

Don't sweat it, the blown gasket is where your water came from.

making me feel better

[rideaubill]

One question though, is a blown gasket a cause of possible effect from something else, unlevel head etc? Head seems flat but all i have at home is a set square to check

[rideaubill]

Hi all I'm back
Got everthing back together, done my best to adjust the valves, BUT, when i try to start it now the carb backfires and caught of fire, this happened a number of times. Any ideas? Engine doesn't seem to be getting gas.

[Peter Malcolm Jardine]

If everything else is right, then timing would be my guess, but there are a lot of possibilities.

[RHarris]

Sounds like your distirbutor is 180 degrees out. Sure sign of it.

[Gib Etheridge]

It seems to me that backfiring through the carb means that it is firing when the intake vale is open, most likely timing but perhaps grossly misadjusted valves.

[Feazer]

I am a bit late to this party but need to ask is this a FW cooled or raw water cooled engine ?

What does the immulsified oil look like. Is it like creamy baby crap or more blue green. The later indicates coolant contamination and something you can easily smell. Same with the exhaust wash.

If the engine is FW cooled and you have a head gasket leak you will almost always have compression forced into your coolant system. With the the engine running remove the cap off the expansion tank and if you feel pressure then you are feeling cylinder compression leaking past your head gasket into your cooling passages.

If you don't find coolant system pressure the problem will almost always be due to corroded and leaking manifolds.

Get that contaminated oil out of the engine and flush it. Unless you have had a really serious overheating event I seriously doubt you have a cracked head.

Good luck