ideal sailboat for low wind regions

[Marcus figueiredo]

Hi, everybody. I live in a small village by the sea sorrounded by mountains, with slow and waek winds. I pretend to build a fast, small and light boat for small cruisers and would like the opinion and suggestions about the best design and characteristcs of sailboat I should use. I was thinking about a dory, but Im not sure if it reacts well in these specific situations. It has to be easy to be carry by a cart and construct. Before start working I want to study some plans and models. If someone has likns and model names to suggest it would be very helpfull.

[Ian McColgin]

Dorys that have been modified for sailing, like the Swampscott models and the gunning dories, are fabulous beach cruisers given their capacity and safety. But even with their rather profound differences in hull form from the traditional banks dory shape, they are indifferent sailers at best. Some sailboats that derive from dories, like the TownClass, essentially draw out and straighten the aft bearings vastly enlarging the transom and these sail quite well in both heavy and light air. Unfortunatly, they are rarely made, hard to imagine how, light.

So, dory. Sure. Make a gunning or Swampscott shape. Make it as light as you dare. You can do these with 1/4" plywood sides and 1/2" (two layer) bottoms. Then, boost the sail area by 50% to 75%. I'd go with a single sail rig that reefs easily and strikes quickly.

The gunning/swampscott dory shape will sail pretty well heeled such that that wide low deadrise garboad becomes the effective flat bottom. It'll do fine both laden and light. It has a wave formation that makes a "hull speed" wall that radically limits your top speed whether rowing or sailing so there's no point in even trying, because it will move along very easily and efficiently at a good brisk walking-to-trotting pace - 3 to 4 knots.

G'luck

Edited to add: Look at the designs of Ian - please forgive my not recalling how to spell his last name but looks like "Outrage". He's made real advances on the Swampscott shape and adapted them very well to light construction. You might start with his designed sail area and make a bigger rig if you feel you need that after some experience.

[Plumbtex]

I got a chance to sail in a Walkabout designed by John Welsford a few weeks ago and it moved very well in some very light wind.
http://www.duckworksbbs.com/plans/jw...bout/index.htm

[Bram V]

If you have little wind you can do two things:

1: focus on little wetted area, if your small boat with won't reach hull speed, and the large boat you are racing won't reach hull speed, you might just be faster.

2: carry way too much sail.

A SCAMP with a slightly oversized lugsail would do nicely, and you can reef a lug relatively fast when the wind does change direction. Be advised though that if your bay is surrounded on three sides by mountains, that fourth direction dictates that you will have to have a seaworthy boat.

Disclaimer, I don't usually sail at sea, and if I do, it's not on a fast small or light boat, it's on a 130 year old oak botter.

[TerryLL]

The solution to light air sailing is a light weight hull with a large sail plan. The sails need to be easily reefed so the boat can survive if the wind speed increases.

The larger designs of Iain Oughtred such as the Ness Yawl, the Arctic Tern/Sooty Tern and the Caledonia yawl are all excellent light air boats, with easily reefed rigs.

http://www.classicmarine.co.uk/boatsearch.asp

[kenjamin]

You really can't go wrong with a boat designed by Iain Oughtred or one designed by John Welsford. My Caledonia Yawl sails on just a hint of a breeze and I am totally impressed by the design of the Welsford SCAMP that I am currently building. The SCAMP's little cuddy cabin will be a welcome feature but I'll be keeping my CY for crews larger than two. Good luck with your build!

[Marcus figueiredo]

Thanks all for the suggestions, a good start point...

[James McMullen]

I've owned both Swampscott dories and Oughtred Ness Yawls and Sooty Terns.

I vastly and utterly prefer the Oughtred boats. I actually gave away my last dory. Gave it away, for free, just to get rid of it.

Marcus, check out this thread for some examples of boats that are well suited to both sailing and rowing in our region of unpredictable wind. There's not a one of us who would trade his boat for a dory.

[Marcus figueiredo]

I've owned both Swampscott dories and Oughtred Ness Yawls and Sooty Terns.

I vastly and utterly prefer the Oughtred boats. I actually gave away my last dory. Gave it away, for free, just to get rid of it.

Marcus, check out this thread for some examples of boats that are well suited to both sailing and rowing in our region of unpredictable wind. There's not a one of us who would trade his boat for a dory.

Interesting... It seems that Iam Oughtred´s boats are unbeatable. In every research about wooden boats his name is mentioned... Thanks.

[Tim Marchetti]

the Goat Island skiff http://www.storerboatplans.com/GIS/GISplan.html

[johnw]

How big a boat are you thinking of?

[Chip-skiff]

The Goat Island Skiff might be a good choice, since it will sail and tack in very light air, and is also quite good under oars. I bought the plans and was about to start building one when a Bolger Gypsy (4.6 m) appeared on an online marketplace, at a bargain price.

This thread, on building a balance lug rig to replace the original one, has drawings and photos of the boat with both sail rigs:

http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...psy&highlight=

My Gypsy sails and tacks in very light air with a single sail. Plans and directions appear in Build the New Instant Boats by Harold Payson.

Karl Stambaugh/Chespeake Marine Design has several light skiffs on more traditional lines that might work for you.

http://www.cmdboats.com/bayskiff15.h...041d498c31b590


The construction method is plywood and epoxy, and several are suitable for both rowing and sailing. This type is drawn from the Chesapeake Bay crab skiffs which were meant to allow fishing close inshore and were easily-driven so the catch could be sailed to market as quickly as possible in light air.

All these boats have very simple rigs and unstayed masts. If you have tidal flows and or river currents to contend with, you might need more than one sail.

In any event, good fortune.

[Marcus figueiredo]

How big a boat are you thinking of?

No more than 15 feet...

[johnw]

No more than 15 feet...

Which is about the length of a Goat Island Skiff, see post 10.

[Binnacle Bat]

The secret to a good ghoster is a lot of sail area way up high, and a slippery hull with little wetted surface. Such boats are exciting or dangerous, depending on your point of view. Reefing is an essential technology in such boats.

If the winds really are that light, build one that is a good rower, too. that way when the the wind dies completely, you can still get home in time for supper.

Allan

[MiddleAgesMan]

the Goat Island skiff http://www.storerboatplans.com/GIS/GISplan.html

Prezactly. There aren't many boats weighing less than 200 pounds which carry sail in excess of 100 square feet. The GIS hull usually finishes out around 130 pounds and the sail area is about 105 sq. ft.

The icing on the cake is that she's like a leaf on the water under oars.

[David G]

Reefing really IS important for a GIS under the circumstances mentioned. Luckily - the balanced lug rig - particularly with the setup shown by Storer - makes it doable. I prefer to reef before setting out, but have reefed while afloat several times with no mishaps. I'd agree with those who see this as a good solution for your situation - except that you said Not Over 15 feet. The GIS is 15'-6". exactly 1/2 foot over your limit. If you can allow that overage... I'd say she's a good candidate. She's also an amazing amount of boat for the dollars and hours you'll invest. Brilliantly simple. I own one, and have used it for a wide variety of activities.

http://www.duckworksbbs.com/plans/storer/gis/index.htm


If you want something that has more form stability, and will stand up to more of a blow without reefing, yet moves decently well in light airs, one of the Welsford line that includes Daniel's Boat; Houdini; Navigator, and Pathfinder might suit you. They're more complex boats, but also more versatile, and more capable of standing up to iffy conditions without quick reflexes. Here's the Navigator - which I think maybe is the best fit for you:

http://www.duckworksbbs.com/plans/jw...ator/index.htm

[Daniel Noyes]

Walter Whales, an experienced boat builder, sailer, and draftsman chose to build a Chamberlain Gunning dory, (plans from "The Dory Book" available from our sponsor WB) and rigged it with a large spritsail rig, and jib. In light wind the 17' dory with it's low wetted surface area was able to out sail a Lightning class one design!

certainly enough light air speed there to best most boats you'll come across, including all of the suggestions above... except mabey Binacle B's Thistle.
Some previous posters seem uninformed about the capabilities of a dory and may have been a little too quick to count them out as they are actually exceptional light air boats.

Proof Positive
Here's a video of my old dory in light air...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mfLUW6VcLvc&feature=plcp

[johnw]

No more than 15 feet...

And how small on the low side? I'm building a 9 1/2 footer that will probably be a good ghoster, but I'm guessing that's too small for you.

[P.I. Stazzer-Newt]

So far all the boats mentioned have been general purpose unremarkable things - suited to many sea or inland locations.

The UK, and England specifically, have some very highly evolved craft used in only limited locations with slow/weak/flukey wind and relatively smooth water - the Thames A-Rater and the Norfolk punt classes spring to mind.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thames_A_class_rater


http://www.norfolkpunt.org/

[Steve Paskey]

Some previous posters seem uninformed ...

Oh, for heaven's sake, Daniel. We know that you disagree with James. Can't you simply state your opinion without taking a personal swipe at him?

James knows as much or more about dories as you do. And he did not say that they aren't good light air boats ... only that the Oughtred designs are better all-around.

[Daniel Noyes]

!Warning! ------- major Thread Drift dead-ahead sir... *crunch*

Oh, for heaven's sake, Daniel. We know that you disagree with James. Can't you simply state your opinion without taking a personal swipe at him?

James knows as much or more about dories as you do. And he did not say that they aren't good light air boats ... only that the Oughtred designs are better all-around.

Please stop, your killin me, this is hillarious! ... YOU are accusing me of taking a personal swipe. Just read your post, doesn't get much more personal than that.
Steve, did you watch the video? watch the video steve. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mfLUW6VcLvc&feature=plcp


I was actually trying NOT to get personal,
The line you quoted "Some previous posters seem uninformed" was actually a reference to post#2 where it is written of Swampscott and Gunning dories "they are indifferent sailers at best"
something I do disagree with and must come from a dirth of experience with properly performing sailing dories.

In the late 1890's early 1900's there was a real "sailing dory craze" similar to the Bicycle craze of a few years earlier, the reason for the craze was the exceptional sailing abilities of the Swampscott style dories!

[Daniel Noyes]

Those A raters are awsome machines, what about a mini one, a little larger than a sunfish, mabey built to 16-17'

[James McMullen]

. . . .the exceptional sailing abilities of the Swampscott style dories!

This has not been my observation in direct comparison to other types I have tried in addition to the Swampscotts I have built or owned or used. In fact, the more experience I have gained, the less I am willing to settle for the compromises of a dory.

And as far as the video goes, I've beaten a Core Sound in light airs in Rowan just fine too. That's not the regime that a planing hull is optimized for, so it doesn't prove squat. It is in the all-around qualities of flat-bottomed, hard chine boats where I find the most compromising compromises.

[Daniel Noyes]

Ok, tough crowd, Let me get another video out here (by the way, we're not racing in these videos, simply day sailing to lunch with a great group of boats, When racing my Alpha dory beat 40'+ cruising boats on occasion!)

... any way, here we are sailing by the Ness Yawl! green hull, appears to the left of the frame about 30 sec mark.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TTIpCz_NMJM&feature=plcp

[James McMullen]

Sailing fairly fast, with crew, with your oversized racing mast, in calm weather, and flat water, disproves my point about handiness how?

I don't generally do crew, calm weather or flat water myself, not by choice. And I therefore require an genuinely handy rig.

But I certainly won't deny that your Alpha seems to be doing just fine under those benign conditions. And there are certainly lots of people who might prefer it who only sail in just those occasions. maybe even for those "low wind regions" of the OP.

I still think he'd probably prefer a rig that is easy to strike completely for rowing on a moment's notice though.

[johnw]

Well, now that we're all watching the two of you wrestle in the mud, can we get back to the thread starter's question?

Marcus, how do you plan to use the boat? General daysailing? What is important to you? Speed? Ease of rigging? How many people will be aboard?

[James McMullen]

You're right, John. Too much thread drift by a long ways. I will abstain from further comment.

[TerryLL]

I posted back at the beginning of this thread and then stood back trying not to get splattered in the mud fight that ensued.

I will now add to my original post that in addition to a light hull and a generous sail plan, the hull should also have a very clean entry and exit as it passes through the water. So, a double-ender or virtual double-ender would be a good choice. And if reasonable speed is desired you'll be rewarded by every additional inch of water line length. A very smooth and clean bottom with low-friction bottom paint will also help, as will properly shaped foils at rudder and centerboard.

[JimD]

This post edited to keep out of it - hahaha

[Wayne Jeffers]

Oughtred Caledonia yawl with the balanced lug yawl rig is the best light-air sailboat that I have experienced.

Wayne

[TerryLL]

Oughtred Caledonia yawl with the balanced lug yawl rig is the best light-air sailboat that I have experienced.

Wayne

I'll have the gunter-yawl rig on my CY. It has a smaller main, but with the jib the total area is just a bit more than the lug-yawl. I hope it performs as well in light airs.

[kenjamin]

I'll have the gunter-yawl rig on my CY. It has a smaller main, but with the jib the total area is just a bit more than the lug-yawl. I hope it performs as well in light airs.

I'd be shocked if it didn't. The CY hull is very easily driven. In light air it's almost as if there's a electric trolling motor secretly adding an assist. Your main may be a little smaller but you will probably find the slot effect is alive and well.



Unfortunately the CY is quite a bit larger boat than the original poster is looking for.

[TerryLL]

Unfortunately the CY is quite a bit larger boat than the original poster is looking for.

Having a boat that's a bit larger than you think you need is a lot better than realizing you built a boat that's too small. Yup, I did that a time or two.

[Terry Haines]

What are the water conditions like? If there is often a heavy swell off the sea a rounded hull shape that cuts through the waves is best and will minimize wetted area. A Norfolk Punt and some gunning dory designs may not have enough freeboard to be safe at sea.

My own sailboat is small, light and flat-bottomed and responds to a breeze that is too light to feel. A light boat is child’s play to beach launch but in light winds may not have enough momentum to complete a change of tack, which can be annoying in narrow waters. A light boat is also easy to car-top if you have to.

In my experience double enders are slow to turn. However, for its size, a sailing canoe is one of the fastest boats on the water in light airs.

[johnw]

Oughtred Caledonia yawl with the balanced lug yawl rig is the best light-air sailboat that I have experienced.

Wayne

Then you've not sailed many racing dinghies. Even my heavy old Snipe, a 1931 design, left the Caledonia Yawl in the dust. There are things to be said against it -- it's the wettest boat I've ever sailed, and the cockpit isn't roomy -- but let's get real, a lot of small boats are faster in light air than a Caledonia Yawl.

[TerryLL]

I’m not sure a ... gunning dory will have enough freeboard to be safe at sea.

In my experience, the Chamberlain gunning dory, as well as Swampscott dories of the same size, in competent hands, can handle just about any sea condition you're ever likely to find yourself in, and do it in style.

[Reynard38]

My Coquina does very well in light air on Lake Lanier. It's not a wet boat. It is a bit bigger than 15' at 16' 8".

[johnw]

As far as I can tell, the Goat Island Skiff meets the requirements best of the ones suggested. A 15' dory is mighty small, and a Caledonia yawl will never be confused with a 15' boat.

[StevenBauer]

How about a Matinicus Peapod, like Tim's Big Food. Exactly 15', a glued lap version could be built very lightly. With an oversized rig?



Steven

[johnw]

Peapods are designed to carry weight. I think they work best when they're not too light.

[Terry Haines]

Marcus didn't answer my question about water conditions but the location of Paraty is in a very sheltered cove in a bay with an island blocking the rollers so probably the water is pretty flat most of the time. That being the case I would also give the nod to the GIS or similar design despite it being designed for inland waters. Oughtred's lovely boats are probably overkill for this location and somewhat harder to build.

[keyhavenpotterer]

I'd give thought to a good sailing canoe for very light air sailing, but you might want more boat.

Ed

[Bram V]

If a decked sailing canoe is enough, they are a lot of fun, even if the waves are a little rougher. If you can pack very minimally and camp alone, it might be the right type of boat for you. See for a modern sailing canoe the Welsford Nautilus, for an old style you might look at the Cassy by George Holmes, these are the somewhat larger types, precursors to the later canoe-yawls. Todd Bradshaw has a book on sailing canoes and their rigs that might interest you if you go down this road.

[Marcus figueiredo]

Well, now that we're all watching the two of you wrestle in the mud, can we get back to the thread starter's question?

Marcus, how do you plan to use the boat? General daysailing? What is important to you? Speed? Ease of rigging? How many people will be aboard?

Hello John. Thanks for your comment. Sorry everybody if my question started some "frictions". Well, John, I dont have much experience sailing, but I just love it. Now I live in a bay city with easy conditions and, taking advantage of my carpentry background, I decided to build a boat and learn sailing. I live in one of the most beautfull places in the world (we have more than 350 islands around) and this is inspiring. So, back to your question, I want a light boat (to be carry by a cart), easy to sail by a novice, fast (thats what enjoys my personallity) to go some places nearby. Comming with me, just my girlfriend and my dog. For this moment, a daysailer type will fit nicely. By now, Im rasearching the suggestions above...

[Marcus figueiredo]

What are the water conditions like? If there is often a heavy swell off the sea a rounded hull shape that cuts through the waves is best and will minimize wetted area. A Norfolk Punt and some gunning dory designs may not have enough freeboard to be safe at sea.

My own sailboat is small, light and flat-bottomed and responds to a breeze that is too light to feel. A light boat is child’s play to beach launch but in light winds may not have enough momentum to complete a change of tack, which can be annoying in narrow waters. A light boat is also easy to car-top if you have to.

In my experience double enders are slow to turn. However, for its size, a sailing canoe is one of the fastest boats on the water in light airs.

Well Terry, as I could observe, the waters here are calm. Sometimes there are breezes that generates some movement but never waves. I dont know much about the currents, but since it is a protected bay used for centuries by carvels and conquers, and nowadays by sailtravelers from around the world, I think it is not strong. But theres a point not so far, that the bay opens to the sea. This is a dificult place even for experient navigators from the region in small boats. Well, this is a place that, someday I intent to go... If necessary I can get a bigger boat (just a little), if the difference worthwhile.

[Terry Haines]

Depending on how far you have to move the boat, if you are moving it by hand like I do this idea may be of use. I attached a small wheel to a piece of plywood that fits inside the daggerboard trunk of my sailboat. The oars act as handles, and it is turned into a wheelbarrow! The wheel has an inflatable tire so it absorbs bumps.

[Yeadon]

You're right, John. Too much thread drift by a long ways. I will abstain from further comment.

Instead of abstaining, you could add value by sticking to the objective of the thread. There's always that option, huh McMullen?

How about a Matinicus Peapod, like Tim's Big Food. Exactly 15', a glued lap version could be built very lightly. With an oversized rig?


Steven

My boat is perfect for the exact opposite situation. Bashing through slop in 20+ winds, fully loaded and reefed. Light airs mean rowing for Mr. Yeadon. However, that keeps me from becoming the resident fat kid of the sail and oar society.

Peapods are designed to carry weight. I think they work best when they're not too light.

For instance, I think the beach pea is a skittish little fellow. Too light.

[johnw]

For instance, I think the beach pea is a skittish little fellow. Too light.

That was my impression of the beach pea, as well. Harder bilges would help, but a wide transom makes it easier to have stability at low weight. With the loading described, I'm pretty sure the GIS meets the design brief. I do think that for sailing off a beach, a kick-up centerboard and rudder are best, centerboard and barn-door rudder on a skeg second best, but the Goat Island Skiff is so handy, the daggerboard shouldn't be a problem.

[Daniel Noyes]

Delaware Tuck up



you need a little Sand Bagger or something like it, mabey 12-14 ft!