Bandwagon, Big Food, Hornpipe & Rowan do Barkley Sound

[Barbinskate]

Excellent info- thanks. What sort of anchor are you using? Weight?

-Bruce

[wizbang 13]

2nd week of august, summer must be over.

[Yeadon]

Excellent info- thanks. What sort of anchor are you using? Weight?

Generally, we use athletic tube socks filled with river rock, which we place into mesh bags and sink just offshore. Each tube sock weighs about 4 lbs when filled with rocks. I use four socks, Eric uses two, James uses three. Alex prefers to use a smallish airplane "tyre" filled with concrete.

[Don Kurylko]

Don't let Tim pull your leg Bruce (Barbinskate), he actually uses his wife's pantyhose.

[skuthorp]

I always thought a couple of old gumboots would make a good cast for a concrete mooring point.

There are a couple of places I like to tie up regularly to watch the birdlife and the idea appeals to my warped sense of humour.

[Eric Hvalsoe]

So ... 13'6 for the HV16 waterline? Though, I wonder if your waterline is greater when heeled?

Big Food's stems are pretty much plumb. I only lose six inches on either end. Or do I lose nine inches on each end. Hmmm. Maybe it is nine.

Heavily loaded I'll say . . . 14ish. Definitely a few inches less for a Sunday row with nothing in the boat. Interesting question, how shape and length change when heeling. The design of the 13 was developed with heeled waterlines.

[Gerarddm]

Heeled waterlines=diagonals, no?

[Eric Hvalsoe]

Ah, we've taken a much needed break and I was going to get all serious again . . .
Damn the torpedoes.

By some measures Bandwagon is the smallest boat, maybe with the least depth, or freeboard, of the bunch. Of course there is real estate, and then there is real estate.

On moorings, Sanford Island, with sleeping shelter

Transom stern of course. And compared to many Whitehall models the 16 is proportionally broader and fuller, particularly aft. Turns out his makes for a pretty cozy sleeping nest.

Looking forward


I lay in a gentle comfortable arc across the aft floorboard panels with my feet along the centerboard trunk. The primary thwarts remain untouched, one drop-in panel is shifted. A double ender of the same length does not have this kind of volume aft. Even on a boat as big as Rowan, James engineered a folding thwart to accomodate a berth on the floors. He is very happy with the arrangement. Structural considerations of the four boats are all a little different. Both Alex and Tim have used sleeping platforms on top of the thwarts, Tim might be thinking about slicing and dicing Big Food for a berth. I am thrilled not to have to chop the main thwartship girder of my boat in half for a good rest.

As a beta tarp shelter I'm about 90% there. A good sleep when not concerned about grounding out . . .

Our erstwhile companion Chris had a Wellsford transom stern design. With an offset trunk
he's got a big ole sleeping area right in the middle of the boat. Chris seemed to prefer sleeping on his boat in quiet little anchorages.

Fewer bugs, away from the 'crowds' hanging out on the boat, I like the gentle motion and the murmuring of a lapstrake hull. That said, campsites in the broken group are awesome.

A couple of seasons back Tim and I spent five days cruising the San Juans, sleeping on our boats, it was great. Did that get James thinking?

5 lb danforth. I had a couple of near disasters with lightweight bruce anchors. Bandwagon is not a heavy boat.

[Eric Hvalsoe]

Heeled waterlines=diagonals, no?

Well, yes and no.

[Yeadon]

Sleeping on a little boat is fantastic. And it's true, I am thinking about hinging the main rowing thwart on Big Food. Or, as winter approaches, just going ahead and building a bigger boat for bigger adventures. (A locally-designed HV19 would be nice, if such a beast existed.) I'll probably just hinge the thwart, though. I have a canoe in progress, a kayak kit in the queue, and a lot more sailing to do this summer. Plenty to do already.

[Paul Pless]

Has Eric's boat always been named 'Bandwagon' or did he re-christen it after adopting the lug rig?

[Yeadon]

Eric named his boat on our last trip to Clark Island, just north of Orcas. That was a month or so ago. I think he just woke up with the name in his head. He was very pleased with himself at breakfast, having finally named his boat.

[KMacDonald]

Alex, does the mizzen mast get in the way while sailing since it is just forward of where the helmsman would sit?
Don, feel free to offer your comments also.

[AJZimm]

Alex, does the mizzen mast get in the way while sailing since it is just forward of where the helmsman would sit?
Don, feel free to offer your comments also.

No, it's far enough forward that there is a comfortable "cockpit" area to steer from just aft. One of my favourite steering positions is slouched on the planking on the high side just forward of the stern bench with my feet up on the stern thwart opposite. Gets the weight low, offers a good view forward and gives ready access to the tiller and the mainsheet. In very light airs, I do the same but sitting on the lee side - it sags some shape into the sail.

When sitting up on the stern bench I do have to duck as the mizzen swings across when tacking or gybing, but a shorter person might not have to (I'm 6'1").

[AJZimm]

Excellent info- thanks. What sort of anchor are you using? Weight?

-Bruce

10 lb Danforth with about 20' of chain before the rope anchor line. I also have a little 1 kg Bruce with chain and line (don't recall how much offhand) stowed in a bag as an emergency backup anchor or a second anchor should I need it. I actually bought it as my primary anchor then later decided it wasn't big enough, even though I hadn't dragged with it.

[AJZimm]

Alaska, slight correction: beam 4' 61/2"; waterline length approx. 17' depending on load.

Thanks Don. My memory isn't what it used to be. Then again, my memory isn't what it used to be

[Tom Painter]

Great story, thanks for sharing!

[Don Kurylko]

Alex, does the mizzen mast get in the way while sailing since it is just forward of where the helmsman would sit?
Don, feel free to offer your comments also.

I think Alex has it pretty much covered, but if there is anything specific about the design that you or anyone else would like to know, I would be more than happy to try and answer.

[TomF]

Having just got back from my first trip to Grand Manan island, I feel a certain urgency to build one of these damned sail-and-oar beauties. The various little bits of the Fundy Isles look every bit as gorgeous as the Broken Group, though the tides are a few times higher (and lower). I spent three glorious hours this morning in a sea kayak with my youngest paddling 'round the Swallow Tail lighthouse, and each of us were grousing about how much more fun it would have been in any one of the boats in this thread.

BTW, here's a picture of the lighthouse, from the website of the guys renting the kayaks.

Bravo again!

[Paul Pless]

What I'd love, of course, is a brief description of how the relative sailing, sea-handling, and rowing performance stacked up. We've seen this among Rowan, Big Food and Bandwagon on another thread - wondering how Hornpipe compares, and whether use in this environment showed any fresh wrinkles...

I mean, you guys are our test-bed for sail 'n oar recreational designs ...

I'd like for you guys to expand on this a little and talk about the strengths of your boats in rough conditions. You know too much wind, too much sea, maybe you did something stupid and got caught out in those big tidal currents y'all go on about, etc etc. . .

Which boat do you want to be in when the **** really hits the fan?

What if you needed to rescue somebody? What if you needed to rescue yourself? Is your boat swampable? Will it turn rightside up if you were to get knockeddown? Do you guys wear harnesses either alone or together? Dry suits?

[Yeadon]

It ain't the boat, it's the skipper, Paul. They all do the job. Usually, I get in trouble when I did not prepare properly (ie. check the wind and tides). Otherwise, I'm usually surprised at the way it happens. As in, "I never even considered THAT."
Waves breaking over both rails at the same time would be a good example.

[James McMullen]

Which boat under rough conditions. . . .?

Well, as for me Paul, if I found out there was a better sail and oar boat for me out there, I would sell Rowan and build it. I really would. I'm not really a very sentimental guy. Remember, Rowan is the 42nd out of 56 boats that I've built. I've dropkicked most of the other ones with nary a qualm. . .and yet Rowan's still the only one I'm totally satisfied with. And I've got the means, the shop, and the understanding wife on hand for me to have any small boat I want.

But it turns out I already have it.

[Yeadon]

That last post was courtesy of the James McMullen Automated Posting Service.

[Eric Hvalsoe]

How big a boat do you want?

[James McMullen]

Geeze, that James guy is like a broken record, ain't he?

[Yeadon]

He should row more.

[Eric Hvalsoe]

Cochise,

Boat strong

Stupid?

Never

Mmm big whirlpools spieden bad

Freight train

Hang on

[WI-Tom]

One of my favourite steering positions is slouched on the planking on the high side just forward of the stern bench with my feet up on the stern thwart opposite. Gets the weight low, offers a good view forward and gives ready access to the tiller and the mainsheet. In very light airs, I do the same but sitting on the lee side - it sags some shape into the sail.

Alex,

I'm curious--it looks like the pin rail would dig into your back or side very uncomfortably in this position--does it? Aren't you leaned up against it when you sit like this? Are you facing more forward or sideways when you sit like this? (I haven't sat in my boat yet to test it out, but soon...)

Tom

[AJZimm]

Alex,

I'm curious--it looks like the pin rail would dig into your back or side very uncomfortably in this position--does it? Aren't you leaned up against it when you sit like this? Are you facing more forward or sideways when you sit like this? (I haven't sat in my boat yet to test it out, but soon...)

Tom

Tom,

The pin rail doesn't particularly dig in. I'm usually sitting more forward looking than side looking, so, if anything, the stern bench would dig in. However, my lifejacket (which I always wear) provides upper back padding, and I have a small foam seating pad for sitting on while steering or rowing, that I shift to soften awkward corners when sitting there for any length of time.

I don't yet have a padding solution for sitting perched up on the rail when hiked out to windward. My butt isn't padded particularly well and the longer I am hiked out, the narrower the rail seems. Maybe some sort of temporary or foldable rail seat at about the rear thwart - I have to put some thought into it.

[Yeadon]

For hiking out ... what about bike shorts?

[AJZimm]

I'd like for you guys to expand on this a little and talk about the strengths of your boats in rough conditions. You know too much wind, too much sea, maybe you did something stupid and got caught out in those big tidal currents y'all go on about, etc etc. . .

Which boat do you want to be in when the **** really hits the fan?

What if you needed to rescue somebody? What if you needed to rescue yourself? Is your boat swampable? Will it turn rightside up if you were to get knockeddown? Do you guys wear harnesses either alone or together? Dry suits?

This probably deserves a more or less serious reply.

From my perspective, any small open sail and oar boat will eventually reach conditions that it can't handle. The question is how soon. The main thing is to anticipate conditions as best you can, exercise your best judgment and avoid getting caught out. However, it does happen that you can't always guess right.

I am not sure exactly when Hornpipe would be in conditions she can't handle, which is a different state than conditions I am not comfortable in. In the Shipyard Raid in 2009 on the second day, the wind crossing north on the Straight of Georgia built from gently following breeze in the morning to 34 kts and 6-10 ft seas after we were truly committed to the crossing. I would have said beforehand that was way too much, but Hornpipe managed, with some surfing and and a few scary moments, to sail downwind to safety under much reduced sail, and come through unscathed and without even shipping any water apart from spray. Upwind I couldn't have made progress for sure but might have managed hove to.

I don't wear a harness but always wear a lifejacket and have a floater coat and floater overalls for really rough and cold weather if I should go into the drink. Hornpipe carries enough weather helm that she immediately rounds up if you let go the tiller, so I have no worries about the boat getting away if I should fall overboard. I have climbed back aboard when swimming from the boat - the freeboard is low enough to easily accomplish that.

I am pretty sure Hornpipe would not stay upside down if capsized - the narrow hull and hollow wooden spars should ensure it floats on its side at a minimum. I haven't conducted a swamp test but, since it's a wooden boat and full of drybags (which are still mostly air even when full) it should float relatively high. I should conduct such a test. One of my worries is how much water would come in the top of the daggerboard case (the lowest point above the water) if the boat was swamped and I was trying to bail - could I keep ahead of it? Before this trip I added a gasket around the top of the daggerboard and doubled the bungee holding it down so as to provide at least a partial seal against just this eventuality. The first line of defense in getting the water out is going to be the bailing bucket - in my case a milk jug with the handle left on, tethered to the boat. It shifts nearly a gallon of water at a time. Once the level is low enough, then the bilge pump could be brought into play.

Rescuing other people? Haven't given it a lot of thought. Could probably get someone else out of the water and over the side into my boat (low freeboard) but also rescuing another boat in rough conditions might be a challenge.

As for the other boats, I would say due her size, hull shape and form stability, Rowan is probably the most able of all the 4 boats in big winds and waters, but James could provide a better perspective based on conditions he has encountered.

[AJZimm]

For hiking out ... what about bike shorts?

That's a thought - build the padding into the butt, not the boat

[Yeadon]

This probably deserves a more or less serious reply.

From my perspective, any small open sail and oar boat will eventually reach conditions that it can't handle. The question is how soon. The main thing is to anticipate conditions as best you can, exercise your best judgment and avoid getting caught out. However, it does happen that you can't always guess right.

I am not sure exactly when Hornpipe would be in conditions she can't handle, which is a different state than conditions I am not comfortable in.

This is very true. The boat can take more than this sailor, too. I do think there's a moment when you just drop all the sails and you use your oars to best control your flow downwind. A couple months ago, I set up along the lee shore of Lummi, and dumbly dropped my sail and started tying in a reef. I should have worked my way offshore a bit first. A couple big gusts and I was right up on to the rocks. I jumped up, yanked down the mizzen, unshipped my oars and rowed offshore. Sometimes oars are the answer. Good decisions are better, though.

I feel like we've been over these disaster questions again and again across multiple threads, and it kills me that this is the topic that people dwell upon. These are capable boats when used smartly. It's all about the skipper, who needs to plan early, prepare well, reef early, wear their life jacket, and be flexible in their destinations and expectations. Even the lovely and talented Rowan has her limits.

If you want a comfortable boat for all occasions, then buy a Bayliner with big cushy chairs, park it in your driveway and hang out on it there.

[Paul Pless]

I feel like we've been over these disaster questions again and again across multiple threads, and it kills me that this is the topic that people dwell upon.

oh. sorry. . .

[TerryLL]

I like the part about the boats being more capable than the sailors. Any of the four boats on this outing are likely to have more innate ability than most anyone here is able to appreciate. That was my experience sailing the Inside Passage in a dory design dating back to the mid 1800s. My biggest worry was that I'd make some boneheaded mistake, and I made several, but the boat saved my grits every time.

[gilberj]

When I was a lot younger I used to take a rowing boat out into Georgian Bay when 3 to 4 metre waves were rolling in and 20 to 30 knot winds, and 'dance' if you will, off the breakwater. It was sport and fun, and possibly a little dangerous but I did not waste my time thinking about the danger because I was 17. I note that Webb Chiles sailed a basically rowing/sailing boat essentially similar to the boats described in this thread, most of the way around the world. A hand-full of dory fishermen rowed back to land from the Grand Banks, most notably Howard Blackburn. These boats in competent hands are very able.

[StevenBauer]

That's a thought - build the padding into the butt, not the boat

They make shorts for hiking out that have pads built into them. Like these: http://www.gillsailinggear.com/categ...ng-Shorts.html

[Trevor S.]

I note that Webb Chiles sailed a basically rowing/sailing boat essentially similar to the boats described in this thread, most of the way around the world.

I've rowed my Drascombe Lugger on occasion and I'll tell you it's no treat. I wouldn't want to have to go far with her in anything but perfect conditions. My total respect for Webb's accomplisment.

[hokiefan]

This is very true. The boat can take more than this sailor, too. I do think there's a moment when you just drop all the sails and you use your oars to best control your flow downwind. A couple months ago, I set up along the lee shore of Lummi, and dumbly dropped my sail and started tying in a reef. I should have worked my way offshore a bit first. A couple big gusts and I was right up on to the rocks. I jumped up, yanked down the mizzen, unshipped my oars and rowed offshore. Sometimes oars are the answer. Good decisions are better, though.

I feel like we've been over these disaster questions again and again across multiple threads, and it kills me that this is the topic that people dwell upon. These are capable boats when used smartly. It's all about the skipper, who needs to plan early, prepare well, reef early, wear their life jacket, and be flexible in their destinations and expectations. Even the lovely and talented Rowan has her limits.

If you want a comfortable boat for all occasions, then buy a Bayliner with big cushy chairs, park it in your driveway and hang out on it there.

Very good points. But for us hope to be good sailors, reading about how to approach things helps. I'd really rather not learn everything the hard way! And I really don't want the Bayliner in the driveway either.

Cheers,

Bobby

[Breakaway]

So much comes down to the crew. " A good ship in able hands," as the saying goes.Then its hard to define what's "rough." For instance if one was to say that such and such a boat proved quite able in 6-foot seas," what does that tell us? Were they long-period ground swells? Short, steep and breaking? Any cross seas? A combination of all? Somewhere in between? The variables are limitless.

Yeadon's best statement, IMHO, is that the boat will take more than the crew can. Holds true for just about any boat in any sea state.

Kevin

[Yeadon]

Paul, I'm sorry if I offended you. It was the end of a "rough" day when I wrote that. I could have delivered that message in a better way. I know that people are interested in these boats, but I really think there's a lack of understanding at just how capable they are. Our time at Toquart Bay reinforced this line of bs.

In other news, I recently borrowed the Ness Yawl "Dragonfly" from I,Rowboat. This is the same Dragonfly that James built boat back in the mid-90s. I,Rowboat has been busy building his house and farm from scratch, and I wanted to give the boat a bit of run this summer.

Kara and I took the boat out on Thursday night and got becalmed. We were rowing back (and by that, I mean Kara was rowing back) when a powerboat came screaming up to us and breathlessly asked if we needed a tow back the launch. I get this all the time around here.

I yelled "no thanks", pointed at my wife and said "she's too tough for outboards." The guy sorta got it, shrugged, and motored away. That's the thing with these little boats, they and the people who love them are really living in a different world altogether.

[Eric Hvalsoe]

I'd like for you guys to expand on this a little and talk about the strengths of your boats in rough conditions. You know too much wind, too much sea, maybe you did something stupid and got caught out in those big tidal currents y'all go on about, etc etc. . .

Which boat do you want to be in when the **** really hits the fan?

What if you needed to rescue somebody? What if you needed to rescue yourself? Is your boat swampable? Will it turn rightside up if you were to get knockeddown? Do you guys wear harnesses either alone or together? Dry suits?

Paul,
I'll expand a little bit from my snarky response, because you seem like one of the nicest guys around, and you were just trying to get some more information.

We've all been in the **** with our boats. Bandwagon has tolerated my indescretions and saved my ass a time or two. It is a personal relationship. So part of your quesiton
just hit me the wrong way. There seems to be a lot of information in the thread from which people can draw their own conclusions about the various boats. It is perhaps reasonable to infer that the biggest boat in the bunch has the most capacity and therefore
the greatest 'capability', whatever that may mean. And whatever **** might mean.
Variables, considerations, and scenarios abound

Alex, being the one true gentleman among us, and a man of skill, experience, and intelligence with a prudent attitude and not a hint of over arching ego, provided a nice response.

Maybe I'll relate a few episodes on the 16 thread to illistrate the history of the boat.
But I don't feel a strong inclination to relate war stories. I'm not entirely sure why. Bad luck, supersitition? It is interesting to read other's stories and sometimes that prompts a response. I get a lot of risk assesment chatter and analysis over the winters with backcountry (no, not crosscountry) skiing.

Let's see, yes, I've flopped into the boat after diving off the rails to cool down. The boat has never capsized, but I really should practice. Once or twice I've used a harness, it has not become a habit.

I really like some of the recent posts. I'd love to know more about Terry's trip to Alaska. It is probably out there, I've just missed it.

One question - Alex - did you refer to 'float' pants or jacket? I'm not sure what that means, what kind of gear is that? My foul weather bibs are toast.

Eric

[Chris-on-the-Boat]

Fantastic thread, fellas. Good pics and follow up information.

[rogue]

Inspiring thread...thanks, that was fun; makes me want to get off my butt and take the dory to the coast....

[AJZimm]

Paul,

One question - Alex - did you refer to 'float' pants or jacket? I'm not sure what that means, what kind of gear is that? My foul weather bibs are toast.

Eric

Eric,

I have a Mustang UVic "floater" coat, which I have owned for decades. It is basically like an offshore sailing survival suit, but just the coat part, lined with closed-cell foam that acts kind of like a wetsuit, should you go into the drink. It has an additional feature that includes a sort of beaver tail foam flap normally tucked up in the back, that can be deployed like a diaper to cover the groin area (one of the highest heat-loss areas), and a hood that is tucked into the collar. It was developed based on cold water hypothermia research that the University of Victoria did in the late 70's. The modern version looks like this: http://www.mustangsurvival.com/recre...ion=recreation.

In addition, I recently acquired a bib overall of closed cell foam as well, to complement the coat. Kind of like this except mine are a different brand and are yellow: http://www.mustangsurvival.com/recre...ation-bib-pant

I had them on the boat for this trip but didn't wear them. I do wear them in more snarky conditions than we encountered and when I go out sailing in the winter when the weather has more of a chance of turning worse and when the water is colder.

[Eric Hvalsoe]

Thanks alex. I'll check it out. maybe different way to go than drysuit, maybe equally expensive
Hey, somebody told me there is a great jazz festival in Bamfield of all places
You know about that?

[AJZimm]

Hey, somebody told me there is a great jazz festival in Bamfield of all places
You know about that?

I've heard about it, but never attended as I'm afraid I'm not a big jazz fan. Sing-along jazz is about all I appreciate.

[Eric Hvalsoe]

Jazz is not typically first on my list either. But I can be drawn in on occasion. Would have been something to stumble onto by accident . . .

[skuthorp]

This is a fantastic thread and as good a 'review' of the three boats concerned as you could hope for. It alsays heaps about the capabilities of the sailors involved.
I camp cruise in my Oughtred Macgreggor and it's way less capable than these boats. You just have to pick your weather, stay onshore if you get a bad day and be conservative in your judgements. But remember nothing is certain and life is a risk.

[WI-Tom]

Thanks alex. I'll check it out. maybe different way to go than drysuit, maybe equally expensive

I have a paddling drysuit (breathable, neoprene neck seal, built-in feet, relief zipper) and find it real good for sail and oar stuff. It's easy to undo the top for rowing or if it's too warm, and takes just a few seconds to put on the rest of the way. On all but the hottest days it's pretty comfy, and it's absolutely heavenly on a tough beat to windward. Also you can hop overboard for landings with impunity, without waiting for super shallow water.

That said, I generally only wear it to windward or if it's a day to make me nervous. But it cost me about $390 on sale, and it does provide some peace of mind for longer hops.

Tom