Mitt's latest 'self-made' businessman...

[Norman Bernstein]

Yup, self-made. Ignore those government contracts hiding behind the curtain!

WASHINGTON -- The star of the most recent Mitt Romney campaign ad criticizing President Barack Obama for arguing that government can play a constructive role in helping business has major business dealings with government entities.

Dennis Sollmann, the owner of Sollmann Electric Company, appears in a Romney web ad released Monday morning that plays off the president's now infamous "you didn't build that" line.

“I mean, I’m thinking, 'You’ve got to be kidding me,'" Sollmann says in the ad. "He was trying to say: ‘Hey, you didn’t build that business on your own. The government helped you build it.’ And that’s what ticked me off more than anything. Mr. President, unfortunately you have no idea how we here in Midwestern Ohio have to try to run a small business from daylight till night."


An electric construction company in Sidney, Ohio, Sollmann Electric has done work on commercial, residential and industrial properties. It has also serviced "hospitals, government and educational" facilities -- many of which rely on taxpayer funding. Neither Sollmann nor his company returned a request for comment as to how much money in government contracts they have earned. But a quick Google search turned up several instances in which the company either sought out or worked directly with government entities.

According to notes from a Jan. 26, 2006 meeting of the Ohio School Facilities Commission, Sollmann Electrical Company was rewarded a $915,117 contract for work in the Trotwood-Madison City school district.

Notes from a May 31, 2007 meeting of the same body show that Sollmann Electrical Company placed a $1,080,700 bid to do work in the Dayton County School District. This was the lowest bid offered and the commission recommended that it be finalized.

According to notes from a May 25, 2010 meeting of the School Facilities Commission, meanwhile, Sollmann Electrical Company was awarded a $1,689,829 contract for work in the Miami East school district.

Sollmann was also a contractor for work on the Horace Mann School in Dayton, Ohio, according to an Ohio School Facilities Commission form filled out in April 2008. Horace Mann is a public school, an official there said.

In November of 2011, Sollmann made a $274,792 bid with the Ohio Department of Administrative Services to do work on a building expansion at Rhodes State College, another public school.

The first project listed on Sollmann's own website is the work it did building Memorial Middle and High School in St. Marys, Ohio. An official at the school confirmed that it is a public school that was recently completely rebuilt.

Hmmm...did they do ANY work that wasn't paid for by taxpayers?

[Kaa]

You gotta love how "You didn't build that" became "arguing that government can play a constructive role in helping business" :-D

Kaa

[Iceboy]

I see that example as a business submitting bids for government work just as they would to another business. I don't percieve it as help in any way. Perhaps you would have a valid example if there were grants to the business or evicence of massive tax breaks. This example just sounds weak.

[wardd]

I see that example as a business submitting bids for government work just as they would to another business. I don't percieve it as help in any way. Perhaps you would have a valid example if there were grants to the business or evicence of massive tax breaks. This example just sounds weak.

i see that as bid on government work paid for by tax money, money he wouldn't have made if not for government

[Norman Bernstein]

You gotta love how "You didn't build that" became "arguing that government can play a constructive role in helping business" :-D

Probably because Obama's quote was never replayed completely... the right wing media always leaves out the critical part of the context.....

Even when Steve Doucy at Fox admitted that the quote was taken out of context, and tried (on air) to 'correct' the story, the inmportant parts were STILL left out.

[wardd]

reminds me of a guy i once heard complaining about the taxes he paid, his business was running several dump trucks and a lot of his business was government projects

[Norman Bernstein]

I see that example as a business submitting bids for government work just as they would to another business. I don't percieve it as help in any way.

Nothing wrong with building one's business using government contracts... as long as you admit that without those contracts, you wouldn't HAVE a business.

Perhaps you would have a valid example if there were grants to the business or evicence of massive tax breaks. This example just sounds weak.

The last example was better, admittedly... a couple of business owners claiming they did it all themselves. The forgot to mention $1M in tax free bonds raised by the state so they could finance their business.

Is Romney's campaign so incredibly incompetent that they couldn't find even ONE anecdotal example of a company built without the aid of governement loans and/or contracts?

[Kaa]

Probably because Obama's quote was never replayed completely... the right wing media always leaves out the critical part of the context.....

Even when Steve Doucy at Fox admitted that the quote was taken out of context, and tried (on air) to 'correct' the story, the inmportant parts were STILL left out.

I've read the transcript of Obama's speech. I don't think the context helps him much if at all :-)

Kaa

[Willin']

I see the original Obama comment as referring to existing infrastructure that enables businesses as well as individuals to thrive and grow. Like interstate highways, bridges, container ports, intermodal transport terminals, airports, you know, the stuff we all use but that Republicans seem to think doesn't need to be paid for and maintained at public expense. That's how government helps business grow and no, Sollmann didn't build that.

[wardd]

I've read the transcript of Obama's speech. I don't think the context helps him much if at all :-)

Kaa

are you another example of home schooling?

[wardd]

romney couldn't even get his message of self reliance out if it weren't for the public airways and the gov developed internet

[Norman Bernstein]

I've read the transcript of Obama's speech. I don't think the context helps him much if at all :-)

Even the part where he said that hard work and individual initiative was an important factor? Or are you just psychologically taking his statements out of context, just like Fox News and the rest of them?

[Kaa]

Even the part where he said that hard work and individual initiative was an important factor? Or are you just psychologically taking his statements out of context, just like Fox News and the rest of them?

Yes, even that part :-)

Two observations: (1) For a supposedly genius speaker he sure dropped the ball; (2) The context actually makes this whole thing interesting, because it becomes not "look at the President saying stupid things" but rather an expression of certain philosophy which the left is totally fine with, but which the right is very suspicious of. That's why the left says "look at the context!" and the right says "yeah, we did, and we still think it stinks".

Kaa

[Norman Bernstein]

Two observations: (1) For a supposedly genius speaker he sure dropped the ball; (2) The context actually makes this whole thing interesting, because it becomes not "look at the President saying stupid things" but rather an expression of certain philosophy which the left is totally fine with, but which the right is very suspicious of. That's why the left says "look at the context!" and the right says "yeah, we did, and we still think it stinks".

Well, this is all understandable, since the right has engaged and embraced the 'self made man' myth for decades now. It isn't surprising that Romney would have trouble finding even anecdotal examples to refute Obama's truth about how success in business is not exclusively the result of individual initiative (so far, he's batting 0 for 2).

Of course, I couldn't even think of a single example in which someone successful in commerce DIDN'T enjoy the advantages that not only government, but all other circumstances in life, gave them....

...but the myth persists.

Republicans hate this idea because it is not coincident with their arguments for limited government. I understand that, even if it's wrong.

[PhaseLockedLoop]

I see that example as a business submitting bids for government work just as they would to another business. I don't percieve it as help in any way. Perhaps you would have a valid example if there were grants to the business or evicence of massive tax breaks. This example just sounds weak.

The point is, the government work is paid for by the taxpayers.

[Cuyahoga Chuck]

I see that example as a business submitting bids for government work just as they would to another business. I don't percieve it as help in any way. Perhaps you would have a valid example if there were grants to the business or evicence of massive tax breaks. This example just sounds weak.

Even back in Abe Lincoln's time it was called "sucking the government tit". Having the right party credentials usually increases success. And it beats hell out of making your own market. You just tap into an existing one that happens to be funded by unlimited tax dollars.

[Cuyahoga Chuck]

Yes, even that part :-)

Two observations: (1) For a supposedly genius speaker he sure dropped the ball; (2) The context actually makes this whole thing interesting, because it becomes not "look at the President saying stupid things" but rather an expression of certain philosophy which the left is totally fine with, but which the right is very suspicious of. That's why the left says "look at the context!" and the right says "yeah, we did, and we still think it stinks".

Kaa

The CBS evening news did a segment today showing how the Romney people cherry picked Obama's speech and used what they extracted to lie about what he had actually said. The total statement is only about 10 seconds long and it makes perfect sense to anyone interested in sense.

[wardd]

The CBS evening news did a segment today showing how the Romney people cherry picked Obama's speech and used what they extracted to lie about what he had actually said.

the base wants to believe

[David G]

I've read the transcript of Obama's speech. I don't think the context helps him much if at all :-)

Kaa

Then you are being deliberately obtuse. I know you're not actually that stupid.

[wardd]

Then you are being deliberately obtuse. I know you're not actually that stupid.

you could be wrong

[Keith Wilson]

You gotta love how "You didn't build that" became "arguing that government can play a constructive role in helping business"

Kaa, you if anyone should know better. Is a willful distortion of his words really the best argument against Obama you can make? This is dishonorable.

Here's the quote in context. Not his most eloquent moment, but "that" obviously refers to roads and bridges and other common goods paid for by taxes.

There are a lot of wealthy, successful Americans who agree with me -- because they want to give something back. They know they didn't -- look, if you've been successful, you didn't get there on your own. You didn't get there on your own. I'm always struck by people who think, well, it must be because I was just so smart. There are a lot of smart people out there. It must be because I worked harder than everybody else. Let me tell you something -- there are a whole bunch of hardworking people out there.

If you were successful, somebody along the line gave you some help. There was a great teacher somewhere in your life. Somebody helped to create this unbelievable American system that we have that allowed you to thrive. Somebody invested in roads and bridges. If you've got a business -- you didn't build that. Somebody else made that happen. The Internet didn't get invented on its own. Government research created the Internet so that all the companies could make money off the Internet.

The point is, is that when we succeed, we succeed because of our individual initiative, but also because we do things together. There are some things, just like fighting fires, we don't do on our own. I mean, imagine if everybody had their own fire service. That would be a hard way to organize fighting fires.

[wardd]

Kaa, you if anyone should know better. Is a willful distortion of his words really the best argument against Obama you can make? This is dishonorable.

Here's the quote in context. "That" obviously refers to roads and bridges and other common goods paid for by taxes.

good luck with that

[Keith Wilson]

Kaa is more than capable of making honest arguments when he chooses..

[leikec]

Kaa is more than capable of making honest arguments when he chooses..

Absolutely. He (or she) is extremely intelligent, and capable of making a better argument than that which has been advanced on this thread.

Jeff C

[Gerarddm]

The regressives are trying to pump helium into the "didn't build that" balloon, but it isn't floating too well among people who have more than half a brain.
It is their usual tactic of bumpersticker hysteria. Pathetic.

[Kaa]

It is interesting how there seem to be two polar, quite opposite, in fact, opinions about my intelligence :-D

But let's look at Obama's speech and the almighty context.

"...look, if you've been successful, you didn't get there on your own." A promising start :-) Now, of course one can start splitting hairs, pulling out dictionaries SamF-style, and pointing out how nobody, but nobody can make even a step without putting his foot down onto a government-made road -- but it's unlikely that Obama was making nuanced distinctions here. His meaning is plain -- you can't be successful by yourself, your success rests on other people.

"You didn't get there on your own." Yes, a repeat just for those who were not smart enough to get it the first time.

"I'm always struck by people who think, well, it must be because I was just so smart. There are a lot of smart people out there. It must be because I worked harder than everybody else. Let me tell you something -- there are a whole bunch of hardworking people out there." Hey, Obama sticks with his theme. You think you're a unique snowflake? Naaah, you're just a replaceable cog. Obama's being sarcastic here -- can we agree on that? And if so, the meaning must be that being smart doesn't lead to success. Neither does hard work. Lots of hardworking people out there, some are successful, some are not, therefore hard work and success aren't that related.

Yes, I know, in other places in his speech Obama praises hard work, etc. But we're parsing his piece of text, the context, and that's what Obama is saying here.

"If you were successful, somebody along the line gave you some help. ... " Well, sure, that's just stating the obvious along the lines of "you had to breath air".

"Somebody helped to create this unbelievable American system that we have that allowed you to thrive. Somebody invested in roads and bridges. If you've got a business -- you didn't build that. Somebody else made that happen. The Internet didn't get invented on its own. Government research created the Internet so that all the companies could make money off the Internet." Ah, the meat. Obama's talents as an orator are coming to the fore :-D

Let's discuss the meaning of "is", err... I mean what that "that" in "you didn't build that" refers to. It seems to me rather clearly that it refers to "a business", NOT to "roads and bridges". Standard rules of English, and all that.

Yes, I see how you can make a case based on the repeat of "Somebody... Somebody... Somebody..." that the "that" in "Somebody else made that happen" refers to "roads and bridge". I am not saying I'm agreeing with it, but I can see that it's possible to argue so. However unless you want to insist that Obama had a brain fart and some words (specifically, "If you've got a business -- you didn't build that") just uncontrollably tumbled out of his mouth and had no relationship to any text before and after -- unless you want to insist on this being the case, then I still think that "you didn't build that" is "you didn't build that buisiness of yours".

And, hey, look at the context! What did we start with? Ah, yes, you're a replaceable cog and smarts + hard work are not enought to produce success. Given that, it makes perfect sense that "somebody else" made your success happen.

So, yes, I don't think the context helps Obama at all.

You people should watch less TV with all its "who are you going to believe, me or your lying eyes" attitude :-D

Kaa

[Norman Bernstein]

Sorry, Kaa, but that is an abysmal failure of logic. Parse all you want, but the fact that you have virtually ignored the part of Obama's statement that provides the context... namely, that hard work and determination were necessary.... simply demonstrates that you're trying to parse your way around that fact.

Feel free to demonstrate, anecdotally, if you want, someone who became successful in business WITHOUT benefitting from numerous and significant outside influences. It can't be done... even Mitt Romney's ads were a total failure, on that point.... presenting one company who succeeded with the help of nearly $1M in gov't loans.... and another whose entire business is based on taxpayer-funded gov't contracts.

Anyone who hasn't read 'Outliers', by Malcolm Gladwell, probably isn't prepared to understand this issue.... especially those who gladly dring the 'self-made man' myth.

[John Smith]

You gotta love how "You didn't build that" became "arguing that government can play a constructive role in helping business" :-D

Kaa

Put in context, it's not a change. Am I wrong when I say the government helps business not just with highways and such, but patent/copyright laws and enforcement, contract laws and enforcement, and yes, as customers?

It it not hypocritical to say your customers don't contribute to your business?

[John Smith]

are you another example of home schooling?

Read it again. The "that" he was referring to is the infrastructure.

Try to have a business without it. How big a business is satellite tv, radio, GPS, and such today? Would any of these be here if the government hadn't put satellites up?

[John Smith]

Read it again. The "that" he was referring to is the infrastructure.

Try to have a business without it. How big a business is satellite tv, radio, GPS, and such today? Would any of these be here if the government hadn't put satellites up?

OOPS! That was for KAA

[John Smith]

Yes, even that part :-)

Two observations: (1) For a supposedly genius speaker he sure dropped the ball; (2) The context actually makes this whole thing interesting, because it becomes not "look at the President saying stupid things" but rather an expression of certain philosophy which the left is totally fine with, but which the right is very suspicious of. That's why the left says "look at the context!" and the right says "yeah, we did, and we still think it stinks".

Kaa

You are aware that Romney has said virtually the same thing to businessmen and olympic medal winners?

[Kaa]

Sorry, Kaa, but that is an abysmal failure of logic.

Then it should be trivially easy for you to demonstrate it. Please do.

Kaa

[John Smith]

http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/we...matical-gaffes

Kind of says it all.

[Joe ( Cold Spring on Hudson )]

kaa, get that shovel and .... Dig dig dig

[John Smith]

Or, to put it another way:

http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/tu...-campaign-fibs

[Kaa]

kaa, get that shovel and .... Dig dig dig

I don't care much one way or the other, but do you REALLY want to keep discussing that masterpiece of Obama expressing himself all the way to the election? :-D

Kaa

[ahp]

Have any of you critics of Big Bad Government ever heard of an SBIR, a small business innovative research grant? A number of small tech type business got their start with these, and they pay 1/3 up front.

[Ian McColgin]

There are some people who talk about how they made themselves and more or less believe it in a non-malicious way, but everyone I've met who make that claim are self-lying arrogant fools who make others sacrifice for their wealth and power. They may or may not actually work hard themselves, but their stepping on others is utterly unforgivable. And it's factually wrong.

[Joe ( Cold Spring on Hudson )]

I don't care much one way or the other, but do you REALLY want to keep discussing that masterpiece of Obama expressing himself all the way to the election? :-D

Kaa

Did you watch that Daily Show clip ??? Hysterical and soooooo on point. Put the shovel down and Watch it watch it watch it.

[Kaa]

Did you watch that Daily Show clip ??? Hysterical and soooooo on point. Put the shovel down and Watch it watch it watch it.

I don't watch TV and really have no plans to start :-P

Kaa

[PhaseLockedLoop]

Anyone who hasn't read 'Outliers', by Malcolm Gladwell, probably isn't prepared to understand this issue.... especially those who gladly dring the 'self-made man' myth.

Huh? Gee, I haven't read Outliers and I don't have any problem understanding this issue--one I understood perfectly well before Gladwell was born. And yeah, I've owned and run my business for over thirty years, and though I don't sell my product directly to government, it'd be silly to suppose that my business would exist without it.

[Joe ( Cold Spring on Hudson )]

I don't watch TV and really have no plans to start :-P

Kaa

Hey genius look up see Johns post # 35

Or, to put it another way:

http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/tu...-campaign-fibs

It's on the Internet ya know that thing your typing out to now the one with the www and the HTML things partially developed and funded and built by the government and your tax dollars. Yea you really wanna use that masterful argument ?

Bwwwwwwa pwnd kaa

[Norman Bernstein]

I don't watch TV and really have no plans to start :-P

"Don't confuse me with the facts"

[Kaa]

Hey genius look up see Johns post # 35



It's on the Internet ya know that thing your typing out to now the one with the www and the HTML things partially developed and funded and built by the government and your tax dollars. Yea you really wanna use that masterful argument ?

Bwwwwwwa pwnd kaa

LOL. Did you, by any chance, imagine that if you stream or download a TV show from the 'net it stops being a TV show?

I don't watch TV not in the sense of media delivery -- I don't watch it in the sense of not watching things made to be shown on TV.

Kaa

[Kaa]

"Don't confuse me with the facts"

I really strike you as badly informed, don't I? :-D

But if you think of The Daily Show as "facts", why, that might explain a lot... :-P

Kaa

[Norman Bernstein]

Huh? Gee, I haven't read Outliers and I don't have any problem understanding this issue--one I understood perfectly well before Gladwell was born. And yeah, I've owned and run my business for over thirty years, and though I don't sell my product directly to government, it'd be silly to suppose that my business would exist without it.

Nor would it exist without a thousand other influences, some obvious, some subtle.... every one of us is the product of so much more than ourselves.....

...yet there are still people with bountiful, heaping helpfuls of sheer arrogance and conceited hubris that don't want to acknowledge that fact.

I feel sorry for them.

[Kaa]

...yet there are still people with bountiful, heaping helpfuls of sheer arrogance and conceited hubris that don't want to acknowledge that fact.

They didn't get there by themselves! Somebody along the line gave them some help. There was an influential teacher somewhere in their life. Somebody helped to create this unbelievable American system that have that allowed them to thrive.

Nah, they didn't build that.

:-P

Kaa

[Norman Bernstein]

I really strike you as badly informed, don't I? :-D

No, you strike me as one of the people I talked about in post #46.

[Kaa]

No, you strike me as one of the people I talked about in post #46.

And why is that? Do you, perhaps, have a quote of me saying something along the lines of how my sheer brilliance, hard work, and a variety of other virtues led to my ascent in the face of unrelentant opposition from the hostile and nasty world? :-D

Or you're just expelling warmed-up air in the general ad hominem direction?

Kaa

[Norman Bernstein]

And why is that?

Mostly due to your post #26.