JIM, an 18 foot canoe yawl.

[RFNK]

By the way, I have your brace 'n bit hex drive, and everyone else's. I'll distribute them somehow!

Rick

[WX]

By the way, I have your brace 'n bit hex drive, and everyone else's. I'll distribute them somehow!

Rick

let me know how much I owe you Rick...assuming there's one for me.
So no one has had a look at the sky? They are quite obvious.

[m2c1Iw]

let me know how much I owe you Rick...assuming there's one for me.
So no one has had a look at the sky? They are quite obvious.

Not down here been drizzling all day and rain forecast tommorrow........great another day in the shed yeah.

[TerryLL]

Peter ,

Those temporary fasteners need to come out in the first 8-12 hours. Screws that big and that deep will require quite a bit of heat. Apply the heat slowly so the entire screw has plenty of time to heat up. Patience is the key. Once that epoxy bond is good and warm throughout, the screw will twist right out. Good work on getting that broken one out.

[PeterSibley]

By the way, I have your brace 'n bit hex drive, and everyone else's. I'll distribute them somehow!

Rick

Are you coming up this way Rick or is post the easiest way ? and thank you, I'd forgotten all about it.

[Terry Haines]

I also object to unnecessary fasteners and like the look of dowels, but I have to admit if a fastener is so determined to remain that it breaks off deep in the wood I just leave it there and top it off with a short dowel! Epoxy can really grip, can't it!

[jim_cricket]

I'll admit to having broken off one or two myself, way down in there. I try not to use drywall screws. They're hard and brittle. #8 steel tappers have more meat in the shank, and are softer. for temp screws into planking, I use #8 pan heads. They seem to last over and over again. Lubing would help, but I seldom do it in the hurry to get screwin'.
Cricket

[RFNK]

We'll be coming up in a couple of weeks, to Brisbane. I'm hoping to see John's boat if he's around, and catch up with Greg too. Anyway, I'll find a way to spread them around. There's one for Peter, Gary, Duncan, John, Greg at least, and Jeff I think. Oh yes, one for me too!

Rick

[johnno]

Rick, without diverting the thread too much, that's great news, and we should organise to get you (both?) up to Poona for a sail..we can drive you up and back. Can organize by email or message. Maybe a EBS here at Paddington as well? Shall continue this at the Antipodean thread.

[PeterSibley]

I also object to unnecessary fasteners and like the look of dowels, but I have to admit if a fastener is so determined to remain that it breaks off deep in the wood I just leave it there and top it off with a short dowel! Epoxy can really grip, can't it!

Terry, I think that hollow drill idea would work to remove a screw broken off below the surface too. I'd open the screw hole to 5/16" down to the broken section then use the hollow drill to cut around the broken bit. As soon as you were past it the wood would shear away and come out . It might be worth it if you though a tool might find the steel later.

A few bits of small diameter thin wall stainless tube would be good to have around , maybe an old car radio aerial?

[Terry Haines]

Terry, I think that hollow drill idea would work to remove a screw broken off below the surface too. I'd open the screw hole to 5/16" down to the broken section then use the hollow drill to cut around the broken bit. As soon as you were past it the wood would shear away and come out . It might be worth it if you though a tool might find the steel later.

A few bits of small diameter thin wall stainless tube would be good to have around , maybe an old car radio aerial?

That one was only a panel nail, but you make a good point. For screws I find scraping them first on soap or a wax block is cleaner than grease and works about as well. I didn't use it on the nail though, I didn't expect to have a problem getting the darn thing back out. All the tooling is done, just have to sand, so unless I have to repair it sometime in the future I won't have to worry . . . but that's a neat trick with the tube!

[PeterSibley]

A question if I may, I've been planing up the rolling bevel on the keel stem and stern inners. I'm getting a reasonable job but do other try to get it perfect before laying on the garboard for a trial fit or get it reasonable then trim as required when the actual plank is tried ?

[andrewpatrol]

Nothing less than perfection will be accepted Peter, seriously though about 90 % will do cos it helps when epoxying. You dont have as much trouble with squeezeout. What I mean is that if the joint is a little rounded some of the timber will bottom out and the rest of the joint, being sligthly open, allows a thick bead to remain.

[PeterSibley]

Thanks Andrew , a flat joint I can do ! But the problem is picking the angle, I've been using battens and a bit of brace ply to pick up the angles and I suspect their accuracy as the thinner ply probably won't lie that same as the 9mm marine . You're right about epoxy though so I should just stop worrying and just get it the best I can then check it before glue up.

Thank goodness we're not using resorcinol!

[TerryLL]

A question if I may, I've been planing up the rolling bevel on the keel stem and stern inners. I'm getting a reasonable job but do other try to get it perfect before laying on the garboard for a trial fit or get it reasonable then trim as required when the actual plank is tried ?

I always leave the bevel a little fat until the garboard is put up for a trial fit. The spots needing a bit of trimming become apparent once the plank is laid on.

[Terry Haines]

Probably too late but wouldn't it be easier to bevel the garboard rather than the keel, assuming you're not doing a rabbet that is. The plank could be cut with a square edge, fitted like that, then the width of the bevel marked at various places along the length. When beveled, the plank then fits on the other side of course. However, there may be reasons why this wouldn't work as I haven't done a build like this one yet.

[TerryLL]

Probably too late but wouldn't it be easier to bevel the garboard rather than the keel, assuming you're not doing a rabbet that is. The plank could be cut with a square edge, fitted like that, then the width of the bevel marked at various places along the length. When beveled, the plank then fits on the other side of course. However, there may be reasons why this wouldn't work as I haven't done a build like this one yet.

Beveling a 3/8" plank to lay flat against the keel as you suggest would give you maybe 1/2" of gluing surface, and a thin edge to drive any fasteners, and a joint that is essentially unsupported on the inner side. Beveling the keelson provides several inches of gluing surface, depending on the half width of the keelson, plus the full thickness of the plank for any fasteners, and a solidly backed joint.

It's all about a solid connection, and backing the joint with solid wood, and effective fasteners.

[Terry Haines]

Ah, I see. It's doing the job of a rabbet or keelson.

[andrewpatrol]

Thanks Andrew , a flat joint I can do ! But the problem is picking the angle, I've been using battens and a bit of brace ply to pick up the angles and I suspect their accuracy as the thinner ply probably won't lie that same as the 9mm marine . You're right about epoxy though so I should just stop worrying and just get it the best I can then check it before glue up.

Thank goodness we're not using resorcinol!

Opens the door for a better class of butchery ! I'd hate to work to those tolerances, be a real challenge
I'd imagine a mm top or bottom of joint won't be very crucial as long as the plank lays fair. I am still trying to figure out how to make on of those guide battens connected to side of plane for this job. Probably going a bit far though. I reckon terryll said it well.

[PeterSibley]

Opens the door for a better class of butchery ! I'd hate to work to those tolerances, be a real challenge
I'd imagine a mm top or bottom of joint won't be very crucial as long as the plank lays fair. I am still trying to figure out how to make on of those guide battens connected to side of plane for this job. Probably going a bit far though. I reckon terryll said it well.

I think that jig would be well worth while for the lap bevels and I think I have an old No.4 that will get the treatment.

[andrewpatrol]

Gert Sigvardson created a router jig that he used on laps to cut them. Sort of a sub-base with a handle that ran on a batten for next lap. I'll see if I can find pictures of it. His laps turned out perfect. Mind you it was on a Grey Seal which has bigger planks so the base had room. Maybe something could be made to fit a laminate trimmer (small router) for smaller planks.

[PeterSibley]

I have been looking at my Hitachi motor plane with interest. It has a 10mm hole through the front for a guide and the rear shoe unscrews so fitting another guide rod should be easy.... maybe. No specifics as yet but I prefer the motor plane to the router , I'm not really router friendly unless it upside down in a table.

[andrewpatrol]

That sounds interesting. The hand plane jigs you see only have the one guide rail so if your front hole is close to the cutter head may be ok with just one. Those jigs space the guide arm up from plane sole by the thickness of lap-batten. I saw an elec plane the other day that was about 1.5 inches wide and the sole was probably 5 inches long. Trying to think of a use for it.

[m2c1Iw]

I have been looking at my Hitachi motor plane with interest. It has a 10mm hole through the front for a guide and the rear shoe unscrews so fitting another guide rod should be easy.... maybe. No specifics as yet but I prefer the motor plane to the router , I'm not really router friendly unless it upside down in a table.

Peter #78 rebate plane or a block is a lot safer you can hog off a lot of material quickly on a course setting then fine for the trim up, lay the plane on edge across each mold to judge the bevel wind and away you go. Tis a joy to work compared to tools with tails.

[PeterSibley]

I really don't know yet Mike , I've been having fun with a combination of power and hand tools. Being a carpenter I have a tendency to quickest is best , what makes wood go away fastest. I have to admit that I don't like using hand planes on plywood, not that sharpening takes long but ply isn't quite as satisfying to work with as a nice straight grained piece of hardwood.

[andrewpatrol]

Hi Peter, I found the pics of Gerts router jig if you're interested




Thanks Gert ( RIP )

Andrew

[PeterSibley]

That's an interesting jig , it would take off a standard depth so as the angle varied the width of the bevel would vary ? Have I got that right? That is about the same as the jigged No.4 with the steel rods isn't it so this might be a good first cut then a bit more by hand if you wanted a standard lap width.

[andrewpatrol]

I think that the top edge ( or really the bottom) would stay on the lap width line courtesy of guide pins riding along edge, just the depth at edge of plank would vary according to angle. I am wondering how how to make those guide pins so if you have an idea let me know please, perhaps a cut off bolt with two nuts? It' d be great to hog off the first amount by setting bit depth a tad shy. I know what you mean about planing ply, you can feel it blunting the blade.

[PeterSibley]

Andrew, for the pins I'd use a couple of 1/4" bolts , cut the heads off then cut a small slot for a screw driver into the plain shank. It would tap neatly into a hole in the plywood if about .5 mm smaller. A bit of epoxy if unsure of the fit and threaded in from the bottom of course.

[Terry Haines]

Any reason why they can't be doweling?

[PeterSibley]

None at all.

[PeterSibley]

It's been a very busy week with another much the same next week so unfortunately not much time for JIM. I've been playing with the stem bevel, running battens and slowly paring it back to close to the right angle. The keel bevel seems good now as does the stern post bevel. This morning I cleaned the workshop, it was deep in planer chips and curly plane shavings then got out 2 x 20 foot 5"x2" joists from my stash to make up a planking bench, a couple of pine horses and some light cross member and I'll be able to start getting some planks out.


I also made up an 8 in 1 scarfing jig and sent my 1 1/2"diameter flat bottom router bit out for sharpening. The jig will scarf 325mm (13") wide, sufficient for my widest planks.

Progress but slowly.

[PeterSibley]

I haven't had much free time lately to play with JIM but had a chance today to make up a temporary planking bench, I'll use it to scarf planks then to saw and router out the shapes using the template . It's 20 foot 6 inches long and 16" wide, long enough for my longest planks.

A tiny step forward.

[m2c1Iw]

Bit of shed envy going on here Peter, looks like you have plenty of room. I had to dismantle my plank bench too early really missing it now.

I think all the small steps are part of the fun as in a tiny step forward but immence satisfaction.

Cheers
Mike

[TerryLL]

Peter ,

I think you'll find your planking bench a bit on the narrow side when you start working those planks that have a lot of curve.

[PeterSibley]

I have a nasty suspicion you might be right Terry, but I'll be able to get the bottom 3 or so I think then I may have to rebuilding it. The plans show the plank shapes ( the design is originally stitch and glue) so I'll have a look tomorrow and see if they'll fit.

[PeterSibley]

I'll have to remove and replace some of the little boards at the ends of the bench with longer ones, the centre section is OK, JIM's middle 3 planks have an arc of about 600mm / 24". It will be easy enough to do .... there all just hot glued down.

[John How]

I get by ok with a 16' x 12" planking bench.

[PeterSibley]

I made up the garboard template this afternoon, it looks fine and there was no movement at all when I took it off .

[skaraborgcraft]

Nice to see progress Peter. All good stuff. Cheers

[andrewpatrol]

Hi Peter Did you use Vern's system of battens with ply and staples?. How do you reckon you'll get the staples out to reuse battens. Must be getting interesting, bet you cant wait to get the garboard done

Andrew

[PeterSibley]

Andrew, I used Phillips screws and little bits of 13mm ply as gussets with 4 screws each to stop them pivoting, the battens are mountain ash ripped out of 19mm panelling in 5500 mm lengths . I'm sawing battens about 16mm x 19mm and drilling for the screws. They pull into the pine ply gussets flush. I'll be able to pull the screws with no damage so the battens will be reusable although I'll need to scarf more onto some later as the lower planks are longer. The garboard is only 5200 long.

Staples would be hard to pull out of the hardwood, in pine or oregon that may be the quicker route but this template was pretty fast to assemble and as an added advantage gave a nice idea of the plank shape while still on the hull. I'm sure a loose batten would do the same but this work well today.

[Terry Haines]

Nice planking bench! I was wondering about the width too. My own planking table is topped with sheet foam insulation: mostly I work with plywood and I use a 3-1/2" panel saw which can follow the curves. The saw blade cuts into the foam but it's cheap, also it's grippy so the ply doesn't slide around. The foam lasts well, I flip it end-for-end or turn it over it after each boat and it is on it's 4th boat now, gonna need s new piece soon . . . also the soft foam also makes a nice place to rest a half-finished boat without scratching.

[SBrookman]

A newbie question here. I'm in the process of scarfing and planking a 16' melonseed, a first for me with both procedures. I started out cutting the planks out of 2' wide scarfed panels but there was so much waste the last few planks I scarfed in place on the molds and they came out fine. So I'm curious if there a reason to doing it one way or another? The width of my planks is now down to about 3" so it's pretty easy to get even clamping pressure.

[PeterSibley]

Nice planking bench! I was wondering about the width too. My own planking table is topped with sheet foam insulation: mostly I work with plywood and I use a 3-1/2" panel saw which can follow the curves. The saw blade cuts into the foam but it's cheap, also it's grippy so the ply doesn't slide around. The foam lasts well, I flip it end-for-end or turn it over it after each boat and it is on it's 4th boat now, gonna need s new piece soon . . . also the soft foam also makes a nice place to rest a half-finished boat without scratching.

That's an interesting idea Terry but my smallest saw is a 7" Makita, a good light little saw and I've bought a very fine blade for it. I hope it works OK. Foam insulation is hard to find around here, we tend to use polyester or fiberglass batts. I'd like some foam so I'm going to have to find source.

[PeterSibley]

A newbie question here. I'm in the process of scarfing and planking a 16' melonseed, a first for me with both procedures. I started out cutting the planks out of 2' wide scarfed panels but there was so much waste the last few planks I scarfed in place on the molds and they came out fine. So I'm curious if there a reason to doing it one way or another? The width of my planks is now down to about 3" so it's pretty easy to get even clamping pressure.

Steve, I'm a total newbie so anything I say is untested theory! I'm using the template method and therefore will have a good 2D pattern which I can lay on ply sheets on the floor, make a scarf allowance then cut it out. I'm hoping this will let me use up my material efficiently but I'm sure all these methods work well. Personally I'd prefer to clamp my scarfs on a flat bench rather than on the hull.

[Terry Haines]

A newbie question here. I'm in the process of scarfing and planking a 16' melonseed, a first for me with both procedures. I started out cutting the planks out of 2' wide scarfed panels but there was so much waste the last few planks I scarfed in place on the molds and they came out fine. So I'm curious if there a reason to doing it one way or another? The width of my planks is now down to about 3" so it's pretty easy to get even clamping pressure.

I often use scarf joints to reduce wastage, and will scarf either on the molds or on the bench, whatever best suits the situation. Although a proper scarf joint is supposed to be just as strong as the material it is wise to stagger the joints longitudinally. It is best to avoid joints where planks are bent sharply. If a joint around a sharpish bend is unavoidable use a longer scarfing ratio; I use 8:1 routinely, even 6:1 in non-critical locations, but 12:1 if the joint is going to be heavily stressed.

[Durnik]

I often use scarf joints to reduce wastage, and will scarf either on the molds or on the bench, whatever best suits the situation. Although a proper scarf joint is supposed to be just as strong as the material it is wise to stagger the joints longitudinally. It is best to avoid joints where planks are bent sharply. If a joint around a sharpish bend is unavoidable use a longer scarfing ratio; I use 8:1 routinely, even 6:1 in non-critical locations, but 12:1 if the joint is going to be heavily stressed.

That's good to hear. I did a 5:1 scarf on a canoe paddle shaft I was making when I found a hidden defect (pretty much dead center on a single paddle). So far, it is holding up to some semi vigorous paddling, but I did wonder what others might deviate from the 'rule'. In my case, it does help that a broken paddle won't 'sink the ship'.. plus, I usually also carry a double.

enjoy
bobby - no longer 'lurking' ;-)

[PeterSibley]

I often use scarf joints to reduce wastage, and will scarf either on the molds or on the bench, whatever best suits the situation. Although a proper scarf joint is supposed to be just as strong as the material it is wise to stagger the joints longitudinally. It is best to avoid joints where planks are bent sharply. If a joint around a sharpish bend is unavoidable use a longer scarfing ratio; I use 8:1 routinely, even 6:1 in non-critical locations, but 12:1 if the joint is going to be heavily stressed.

I've only got the one scarf jig and it's 8:1, next time I'll make a 12:1 as the extra material won't be missed and it may be that little bit stronger .

[SBrookman]

Most books recommend 12:1 for structural uses but John Brooks uses 6:1 for planking to eliminate flat spots. So that's what I'm using, hoping for no surprises later on.