Danish beach pram "Marie"

[skaraborgcraft]

A very recent aquisistion to the book collection was by Christian Nielsen, classic Danish boats measured and described. As one who has an interest in Scandinavian working craft,this was a very interesting book. Despite the lovely double-ender hull form im rather partial to, the boat that has perked my interest the most was the 22ft beach pram,with a typical upswept pram bow, but with a sharp stern. These are some pics of the boat in question.





One of my all time favourite beach working boats is the seabright/Jersey Skiff , a boat that is as practical today as it was when it was being used everyday by hundreds of shore folk. This Danish pram seems to be just as viable for use outside the fisheries, yet i have never even seen one before finding it in the book. I do realise these are still in use as beach boats in Denmark,or at least a very similar design. Maybe their use,and therefore the design , for beach landing through heavy surf,detracts from making a good "general purpose" boat? I did not want to do a beach skiff Vs beach skiff, type thread, they both were suited very much to a purpose;the Danish pram being very much deeper than the same sized seabright type,and no doubt heavier,though mostly built from pine (oak frames).Whats your opinion? I think its a hull shape worthy of more research.

I would love to hear from anyone with any experience of the type,and general critique of the design. Cheers

[Thad]

I built a boat to the Danish Seine Boat design in that book, built clinker around three shadow molds with floors and futtocks joggled into the finished hull. A big 20' motor launch, finished with "hunting cabin" and powered by a 6hp Atlantic. That built for people who talked for years about wanting a Marie. There is a picture of MARIE pulled up on the shore, something that the transom bow encourages, and the stern stem finish should make her plenty slippery. Nice shape! and she would turn heads everywhere.

[skaraborgcraft]

Thad, thanks for your post,i was beginning to think she was too far from mainstream to get any comments. The Seine boat is a big,small boat. If you have any photos you could be post,be good to see. Any idea of the finished weight? Being pointed at both ends is style wise,more my thing, but the pram, being designed for sail and motor and beach landings i find an unusual compromise. Im in touch with a museum in Denmark,so hope to get some more information or a contact. The beach pram looks to be far less displacement than the Seine boat. Any reason why those people chose the seine boat over "marie"? I think your right about turning heads,unusual but functional. Yet another model in the offing.....

Cheers

EDIT: the comment from Nielsen that the fishermen considered this boat seaworthy and more popular than "other boats" of the same size. I can only conclude the "other boats" were of the traditional double ended local design? That speaks volumes to me about this small boats ability.

[Thad]

I don't exactly remember the finished weight but it might have been around 2500#. I figured, and had Doug Zurn NA calculate, LWL displacement at around 6000#. I put 3000# lead ballast, if I remember right, under the floorboards.
I got a copy of the Nielsen drawings from the Danish Maritime Museum. The choice might have been power over sail, for whatever reason. They are on a lake. The "other boats" probably are just what you say and I do like the pram for beaching.

[skaraborgcraft]

Thad, great pics and info. Love those joggled frames! Thats an immensley strong construction. Excellent job you did on that build. Could just be picture quality but that doesnt look like oak planking?Thats a lot of ballast,but she needs it,seeing she does not carry nets,. I dont think the beach pram would have much, if any, possibly for trimming only. Cheers

[Paul Pless]

Nice shape! and she would turn heads everywhere.

Those frames caught my eye immediately!

[Thad]

Planking is Maine cedar, stems and frames locust. Thanks. All fun. The original boat as drawn had an engine amidship with the head standing as high as the rail, the Atlantic is heavy but the original heavier for sure -- then there are the nets. Marie has an altogether different shape and wouldn't need ballast like that, as you say.

[skaraborgcraft]

I just checked in on Sven Yrvinds site to see how his "around in ten" boat is coming along.......recognise that bow shape?



Not quite as sleek looking as the beach pram, but built for completely different use.

Thad, checked out your home site,some good construction pictures. On another note, i was very tempted with Strange Phsyce (sp) but the displacement was getting out of hand for what i was after,stunning lines though. Cheers

[JimD]

A very cool design.

[skaraborgcraft]

I have just completed a set of 9 moulds for a 1 1/2 in to 1ft scale model. I have already come across a build issue. There is a hog/keel/centre plank shown running inside and is around 1x6in tapering at both ends. There is also the solid stern post,a knee and what looks like a very shallow bit of deadwood. What is not clear is the type of joint between the deadwood and hog, in that there is no clear detail of how these join and where the transition is.

I had mailed a handfull of builders in Denmark several months ago,and have had no response. My guess would be the hog will run all the way back to the stern post and the knee and deadwood would be through bolted with the hog in between, but this is not clear on the drawings, and would normally be standard type construction. I just want to check any alternative ways that this could be done. Bearing in mind the low resolution of the picture, could it also be possible that the deadwood,what little of it there seems to be ,is actually all part of the keel/hog plank? Im not sure if that central plank has a special name on this particular type of pram.

Any guesses to if it would have been built right side up or down?

Im probably going to make the central plank more of a girder section so i have the shape already rigid to attatch the moulds to, rather than try setting them all up on a frame and bending the plank in place......have not decided if i want to cut notches in my moulds yet.

At this size, should be a lot easier to plank than the Rundgatting model i attempted.....fat fingers and all that. Cheers

[Peerie Maa]

I have just completed a set of 9 moulds for a 1 1/2 in to 1ft scale model. I have already come across a build issue. There is a hog/keel/centre plank shown running inside and is around 1x6in tapering at both ends. There is also the solid stern post,a knee and what looks like a very shallow bit of deadwood. What is not clear is the type of joint between the deadwood and hog, in that there is no clear detail of how these join and where the transition is.

Any guesses to if it would have been built right side up or down?

Taking a lead from the coble builders, the "keel plank" might be called a ram plank. The praam was modst probably built right side up. By enlarging the image I can see that this ram tapers in depth from the sternpost to the bow. It looks to be rebated to take the garboard all along its length and has an iron keel band nailed on.

[skaraborgcraft]

Thanks Nick, are you suggesting that the "ram" plank is a single length, and in this case with the sternpost fitted on top and braced with the knee? That rebate will be an important issue if you are correct, it appeared to me the garboards (if thats the correct term to use here) just overlap the keel plank, similar to other pram construction.

I have the CD Rom of all of Nielsens drawings coming from Denmark, it allows much more zoom control to see detail, and i believe there are a lot more pram types too.

Cheers.

[Thad]

It will be interesting what you see, but as far as I know the Nielsen drawings only a little bigger than as shown in the book. The ram/keel is not separately defined in the plans, so I suspect it is pine like the rest of the planking although I would like it to be oak. It also looks like it might be rabbeted for the garboards with the iron band applied to protect the bottom when taking the beach. With an iron ban pine might work better than oak. Only the dagger board shoe, the guard rails/rub strips, frames, and coaming are specified as oak, though the sternpost and knees are not in the section with named parts, and I would expect them to be oak though grown pieces of softer wood can be tough enough.

[skaraborgcraft]

Thad, thanks for your thoughts. I too would assume the stern post, knee and keel to be of oak. Rather than a rebated edge on a thicker board, how about laminated from two or more boards with the top board like a "T" ? I realise it will probably need some central fastenings. Finding suitable oak for a full size keel will be a challange, aswell as trying to put in the bend and the rebate. I do have access to some very hard and dense pine, though im not too sure what i could glue it with as it is rather resinous,maybe a good place to show my faith in PU glue. Cheers

[Thad]

I would think, Holmsbru pram style, the bottom board/ram of pine or larch would be fine as it is really just another plank, supported by the floors and the joining planks. For beaching purposes you would want a filler of oak/locust/hardwood between the garboards and "guard rails", but these could be short scarfed and would be better well bedded than glued.

[Peerie Maa]

Thanks Nick, are you suggesting that the "ram" plank is a single length, and in this case with the sternpost fitted on top and braced with the knee? That rebate will be an important issue if you are correct, it appeared to me the garboards (if thats the correct term to use here) just overlap the keel plank, similar to other pram construction.

I have the CD Rom of all of Nielsens drawings coming from Denmark, it allows much more zoom control to see detail, and i believe there are a lot more pram types too.

Cheers.

If you look carefully at the section profile the "ram" is of one piece & the draftsman has indicated wood grain from upper to lower surface. Then if you look at the section view of the run of planking, the maximum section indicates that the garboards are in a rebate, and the next strake has a lap. You can also see where the rebate curves up at the heel of the sternpost to about half the depth of the rams thickness on the profile view.

[skaraborgcraft]

Nick, thanks again, you seem to pick things out that im just not able to see.....but that makes sense, and it will certainly have to be bigger than a 1x6 to take a good rebate.

Thad, if fitting an "infill" between the garboards to take a grounding, i dont see why that ram plank could not be laminated up to the full depth to start with,and it would give enough timber for a healthy rebate.

An iron band fixed with iron nails would probably be hard to come by, but would galvanized steel and galv bolts well bedded have a detriment effect on copper fastenings? I do have the means to have anything fabricated in stainless steel if thats the lesser of 2 evils. Bottom rub rails would be required for beach landing and trailer hauling. Replacing worn and ripped up oak oak sheathing was a horrible job even on a small fishing boat, perhaps this would be a good place to use someting like polyethylene sheet?......no rust at least. Cheers

[Thad]

If you are in salt water the zinc will disappear quickly and the steel will rust sickening oak especially. Stainless is inclined to crevice corrosion. If you use the plastic, Id use black to reduce ultraviolet degradation. In the plan I see the "ram" molded deeper at the stern, which I take to be for just the reason you mention, as the garboard twists up into the stern.

[skaraborgcraft]

To get an idea of the real shape and planking process, have started another model build. Learning from my past incomplete effort on a Rundgatting, i decided the bigger 1 1/2in to 1 ft would be the order of the day, meaning a model around 33in.

First job was to enlarge the lines. I used an architechts pantograph to enlarge the lines to 3 times, and then used that drawing to scale up twice, hence 6 times larger than the photocopy lines plan.




I decided to make the backbone quite deep in order to take a bit of rough handling while planking. The backbone on the Rundgatting model ended up snapping in half, but was more or less scale size.




With the first few frames dry fitted below. Bow transom not yet fitted.

[skaraborgcraft]

[skaraborgcraft]

Thad, thanks. This ram is a bit more than just a plank i first thought it was. I believe the Arendal method was to have the ram plank fitted below the garboards,and i understand you have built both ways,Holmsbru style too? Any advantages or clear disadvantages between the two in your opinion?

I think plastic fastened with bronze screws as chafe protection would be the best compromise. Im not sure how heavy the displacement would be,but far more than one person is going to drag up a slipway. Cheers

[Thad]

The question: No, just different except for the obvious. One person and a big horse.

[skaraborgcraft]

A 36 horse Massey 135 should suffice then.


All station moulds now glued into strongback.

[skaraborgcraft]

and



Im thinking planking laps of around 1 inch, which should make my plank lining battens 1/8th......hoping i can slice that off with a fresh blade in the saw. I have also made a batten to fit over the stem and sternpost to keep everything straight while bending battens.I may fit spacers between moulds too. The top of the stronback is the waterline as marked on the lines plans,and with the frames marked also,it was another way to ensure the moulds where at the correct height. Cheers

[Peerie Maa]

I would use boiling water and heat (a gas hob flame works) to bend and twist the strakes off the boat, so that hey lie relaxed when you hang them. That will reduce the stresses that the form has to deal with.

[skaraborgcraft]

Thanks for the tip Nick. I want to try different lay offs,one with lesser strakes for possible ply planking. Im waiting for a quote on larch/pine planking stock, but im beginning to think quality ply is going to be less.

I have some mahog veneer for planking the model,wraps around with no issues.

It really is an interesting hull form,the shape from midships forwards will just create lift, and it a fine run aft. Managed to find one photo online of a similar type with pointed stern.

[skaraborgcraft]

Finally received the CD from Denmarks Sea History Museum with Christian Nielsens drawings/plans of 70 different craft.. what a feast!

The ram/keel plank on Marie,as mentioned is clearly a rebated plank. Some of the other prams have the same construction, others have plank on edge shallow keels,the "ice pram" has an external plank keel.

The 18ft "Pram from Lokken" has some interesting build features, and a fantastic rig.



The topsail and flying jib on removable bowsprit would be a good edition on the Marie. Cheers

[skaraborgcraft]

Not had much spare time, but managed to cut some paper ribbons for lining off.



Almost as many pins in the nose as an 80s punk rocker



Forward of midships will be reasonably straight forward, but the aft end needs a lot more attention



I can understand why some of the later beach prams had stealer planks run in.Note how a plank finishes short of the bow transom.



I do wonder about the amount of fastenings put through the planks in such a small area. Cheers

[skaraborgcraft]

This particular boat has two planks that finish short of the bow. There only seems to be transom sterned boats currently working off the beaches. I find this one almost Scamp like, im sure Kenjamin would like to fish from it.



Im just wondering how many planks i can get down from the original 10 without it being impossible to plank in plywood.

[kenjamin]

This particular boat has two planks that finish short of the bow. There only seems to be transom sterned boats currently working off the beaches. I find this one almost Scamp like, im sure Kenjamin would like to fish from it.



...

Looks like a fun boat to me but it probably uses more fuel than a SCAMP and a bit more difficult to trailer.


Enjoyed the heck out of this picture of Sven Yrvinds and his boat. Seems like an intelligent solution to the design brief but then the design brief itself is kind of "way out there." He looks like he's having a good time with it and in the final analysis, that's all that matters.

I just checked in on Sven Yrvinds site to see how his "around in ten" boat is coming along.......recognise that bow shape?


...

[skaraborgcraft]

Yeah Ken, Svens one of those guys who really is analytical about his boats and the intended purpose, but he also is pushing the boundry of what most people would consider physically comfortable,let alone mentally. If anyone has a chance of pulling off an "around in 10", Sven has a better chance than many.

Im not sure how big that pram is, but judging from the size of the outboard cowling and the prop,its one of the smallest i have seen,the liferaft container gives a good clue to how long it is. Certainly heavier than a Scamp,it just had that jaunty bouyant bow and belly shape that looked familiar. I think your 4hp Yammie would have trouble pushing this through the heavy surf . Cheers

[kenjamin]

John Welsford wasn't real happy with me putting my 4 HP Yammie on the SCAMP but after I told him it was already hanging around the carport and not being used much, he agreed to my scheme of a larger motor on an inboard motor well. I think you're right about the 4 HP on that beefy pram but in the SCAMP world my SCAMP will have the big muscles.

[skaraborgcraft]

True Ken, your power to weight ratio will be in "trawler" territory....i assume you use a rod when you fish and not shoot nets?

[skaraborgcraft]

Had a spare hour this morning to play with the aft plank lining off. I got it somewhere looking ok, then came back to it this evening and spent another hour fine tuning. Hard to know exactly how it will turn out,i spent a lot of time with my head upside down but fortunately for you chaps,i can invert the photos.





After marking off on the moulds the plank lands, i took off every other ribbon to go from a 10 plank to 5 plank layout....just to see.



Does not look so bad from the bow...but...



I dont think that aft end will plank cleanly with just 5 strakes. I may try another model with 8 strakes at a later point, i need to get the patterns first for the 10 plank set up and go from there.

[skaraborgcraft]

I decided to use the paper ribbons and glue paper spacers inbetween the mould stations. Im hoping this will be just stiff enough to use as a template for the planking on the veneer. Will see how it dries off,and hope to get the gardboard planks cut out tommorow morning.



Im intending to plank up with the original 10 planks a side. Hopefully from that,i will have a better idea of what size planking will be required. Cheers

[skaraborgcraft]

And for those with a stiff neck....



Unfortunately,the shadow from the flash takes away from the lines. Mould No7 is short at the sheer on both sides,but appears fair. Obviously paper in a straight line from 8 to sternpost looks odd. Hopefully im not too far from an acceptable lay-off, but its what appears ok to my eye, and there are small differences to the lay off on the lines plan......it could be i find out why as planking progresses! Cheers

[skaraborgcraft]

The paper template worked out fine.



Simple job of running a ballpoint pen around the pattern, and cut out with a fine pull-saw,and used that as a blank pattern for its opposite number.



The blank is equivalent to an 8in x 20ft board. I will make notes as to the size of boards that will be required to plank up full size.



Both gardboards fitted. I have allowed the planks to overlap what would be the ram plank,as this would be filled in for grounding anyway. I will fit a small strip to represent a grounding shoe/steel/iron band. Plank went on cold and glued with PU. I will need to make cheeks to fit the sternpost as a backing for the planking,as its too thin to cut a rebate. Will be the next job.
Hopefully will be able to use the edge of the previous pattern and add a new ribbon to it. Cheers

[skaraborgcraft]

Sternpost cheeks fitted and another pair of planks gone on. Will make up a fresh ribbon pattern for the next pair of planks.
Will post more pictures when more planking progressed.

Planks are just under 1/8th, which is about as thin as i dare cut on a bench saw and is a wee bit bigger then the 5/8th planking scale wise. Spruce. So far no steaming required. Cheers

[skaraborgcraft]

Planking update. 5 planks per side,so half way there.




This 5th plank came from the same size "boards" as the previous planks, that are a scale 12in,the previous planks could be got out of 10in boards,the planks,including this one,being a maximum of 8in;however due to shape it had to be made from two half with a butt joint in the centre.




Im really not set up for model making,and some deep clipboard type clips would be a great help in keeping the lands together while the glue goes off,

[skaraborgcraft]

First time view of the pram upright...



Cutting the gains for the stern was fun. The aft end is by far cleaner than the bow transom.....which has proved tricky!



A long way to go yet,and will probably get more tricky as the curve in the aft quarters becomes more apparent. Cheers

[Thad]

Keep those upper sections full in the stern.

[skaraborgcraft]

Keep those upper sections full in the stern.

"That" being the tricky bit i was thinking of......i can see some steaming or soaking coming real soon Thad. I been thinking about how many moulds would be needed at the stern building full size,as you point out, its pretty full. Cheers

[skaraborgcraft]

3 planks to go. Yesterday i got to a stage where no matter how many pins i used,i couldnt keep the lands closed up. Fortunately, being a larger model allowed me to use normal clamps for planking up!



I was finding the planking was not sitting against the moulds up forward,and rather than force it,i have let them run as they want. I may bring both sides in together once the planking is done,but at the moment im thinking the extra area in the bow may be a good thing....but will see how it develops.



At the stern,i have had to go as far as a small plywood pad and a screw through the sternpost in order to bring the plank home. There will be a lot of cleaning up to do, and the shape is not as flat aft as it may appear,and i hope the next 3 planks will show the fullness. Cheers

[Peerie Maa]

At the stern,i have had to go as far as a small plywood pad and a screw through the sternpost in order to bring the plank home.

If I told you once, I told you a hundred times, boiling water and a flame. Now don't make me have to tell you again.

[skaraborgcraft]

I feel suitably chastised Nick. You are quite right. In my defense,i have nothing to boil water in and no flame thrower in the workshop,and im barred from the kitchen table,which would be handy as the kitchen range has been on for the past week,so plenty of hot water and flames. I may just take a thermos of hot water to the workshop, and a candle. I need those pads to hold the plank while the glueg oes off anyway,though i dont feel anything has been close to snapping yet. Famous last words.......

[Peerie Maa]

I feel suitably chastised Nick. You are quite right. In my defense,i have nothing to boil water in and no flame thrower in the workshop,and im barred from the kitchen table,which would be handy as the kitchen range has been on for the past week,so plenty of hot water and flames. I may just take a thermos of hot water to the workshop, and a candle. I need those pads to hold the plank while the glueg oes off anyway,though i dont feel anything has been close to snapping yet. Famous last words.......

The plank does not gave to be bent or twisted to an exact fit, just closer, so you need not take anything other than the plank to the hob. If you use the boiled kettle to make Der Management a coffee as well you may get away with it

[skaraborgcraft]

LOL.

Here are a few examples of an "upmarket" pram. Called a "vlet" in Holland. Maybe someone can give more info on the history part. Look quite tasty built in hardwood.....if you have a spare 50,000Euro.

[skaraborgcraft]

Theres a shed load of similar vlets for sale in holland,originally a small working barge with excellent load carrying ability and seaworthy. Heres a small one,built in steel, like only the Dutch can.

[Peerie Maa]

The smaller Damen Pushy Cat tugs have a similar hull form.

[ThorBue]

One could say that the vlets look better in steel than "upmarket hardwood" - but since this is the woodenboat forum I won't do that.....