"be fruitful and multiply"

[Bob Adams]

So we were commanded. Do you think we were meant to so overpopulate the Earth that it could no longer sustain us? Seems to me that is where we are headed. Thoughts?

[BrianW]

If you believe in God, then he has a plan.

If you believe in evolution, then we are as natural as anything else on earth, and will eventually reach a point of balance between population and resources.

[elf]

There is no point of balance between population and resources. The norm is for populations to multiply until they are overwhelmed by inadequate resources, their own pollution or some uncontrolled predator. The only difference between humans and other populations is brains. We have, thus far, used them to outwit every predator, but we will not use them to outwit inadequate resources, despite that we have, up to now, thought that we were doing that because we will not organize ourselves to deal with our own pollution.

The fact of the matter is that it is too late for us to do that and in only a very few generations there will be a great culling, along with a deeply inadequate environment for our survival.

[ahp]

It is scary, but it is the undeveloped world that is a most risk. In much of the industrialized world the birth rate has dropped. In some, below the replacement rate. Japan and Russia are two examples.

[wardd]

ok, we've done that, what's next

[Captain Intrepid]

So we were commanded. Do you think we were meant to so overpopulate the Earth that it could no longer sustain us? Seems to me that is where we are headed. Thoughts?

"Speak to the Israelites and say to them: `When you enter the land I am going to give you, the land itself must observe a Sabbath to the LORD. 3 For six years sow your fields, and for six years prune your vineyards and gather their crops. 4 But in the seventh year the land is to have a Sabbath of rest, a Sabbath to the LORD. Do not sow your fields or prune your vineyards. 5 Do not reap what grows of itself or harvest the grapes of your untended vines. The land is to have a year of rest."

No.

[Bob Adams]

Thank you Captain, it was not the Lords intent for us to overwhelm the Earth. So, you have to wonder about some of his religions views on birth control. It's satire yes, but roots aren't that far from reality:

[Gerarddm]

Self sustaining colonies at L5 points or on the moon. Terraform Mars. Get on with it. Jeesh.

BTW, there are plenty of biblical injunctions which are utterly meaningless in today's world; that is but one of them.

And incidentally, did Your Favorite Deity also want that to apply to, say, viruses and cockroaches?

[Peerie Maa]

"Speak to the Israelites and say to them: `When you enter the land I am going to give you, the land itself must observe a Sabbath to the LORD. 3 For six years sow your fields, and for six years prune your vineyards and gather their crops. 4 But in the seventh year the land is to have a Sabbath of rest, a Sabbath to the LORD. Do not sow your fields or prune your vineyards. 5 Do not reap what grows of itself or harvest the grapes of your untended vines. The land is to have a year of rest."

I'll bet that lost something in the translation. It is one hell of a metaphor.

[Captain Intrepid]

Thank you Captain, it was not the Lords intent for us to overwhelm the Earth. So, you have to wonder about some of his religions views on birth control. It's satire yes, but roots aren't that far from reality:

If there's one thing man is good for, it's corrupting the will of God.

Check out A Rocha. Now that is a Christian org. worth checking out.

[Kaa]

I see the ideas of Rev. Thomas Malthus continue to be as popular as ever...

Kaa

[B_B]

If you believe in evolution, then we are as natural as anything else on earth, and will eventually reach a point of balance between population and resources.

Populations routinely develop beyond the resources available to them and either adapt or die out.

[LeeG]

So we were commanded. Do you think we were meant to so overpopulate the Earth that it could no longer sustain us? Seems to me that is where we are headed. Thoughts?

Hell yeah. We're Kings with hundreds of energy slaves in each gas tank. It'll go on forever!

[LeeG]

Populations routinely develop beyond the resources available to them and either adapt or die out.

But that's God's plan also. Overshoot then the bell rings for awhile before dying out.

[LeeG]

I see the ideas of Rev. Thomas Malthus continue to be as popular as ever...

Kaa

How long did dinosaurs reign?

[pefjr]

When was the Great Plague, 7 or 8 hundred years ago. 25% of the world population wiped out. Some say with modern medicine that would never happen again, but MM could not prevent a mother of all volcanoes from cleaning out 85% of the WP. It happened before, the Indonesian Toba Caldera. Or an Asteroid. Without those population thinners though, mankind will over populate and crash. I read it in the Tea Leaves.

[hanleyclifford]

So we were commanded. Do you think we were meant to so overpopulate the Earth that it could no longer sustain us? Seems to me that is where we are headed. Thoughts?

There is a big diffeence between being "fruitful" and "multiplying". Rabbits and weeds multiply; do you think most of the people on this planet are being "fruitful"?

[L.W. Baxter]

What the Lord actually said was:

"Be Fruity, and Superfly"

[LeeG]

There is a big diffeence between being "fruitful" and "multiplying". Rabbits and weeds multiply; do you think most of the people on this planet are being "fruitful"?

Is there anything unclear about "multiply"?

[Kaa]

Is there anything unclear about "multiply"?

I dunno, do you think cloning qualifies? :-D

Kaa

[Waddie]

there's a big imbalance in the birth to death ratio: currently about 5 births for every 2 deaths worldwide.

http://www.worldpopulationbalance.org/faq

draw your own conclusions.....

regards,
Waddie

[Bob Adams]

Hell yeah. We're Kings with hundreds of energy slaves in each gas tank. It'll go on forever!

Do you EVER give it a rest?

[The Bigfella]

When was the Great Plague, 7 or 8 hundred years ago. 25% of the world population wiped out. Some say with modern medicine that would never happen again, but MM could not prevent a mother of all volcanoes from cleaning out 85% of the WP. It happened before, the Indonesian Toba Caldera. Or an Asteroid. Without those population thinners though, mankind will over populate and crash. I read it in the Tea Leaves.

The Toba eruption, some 74,000 years ago is believed to have reduced the human population to 1000 breeding pairs. It'll happen again is some shape or form.

Lake Toba is one of may favourite spots on this planet, btw

[LeeG]

I see the ideas of Rev. Thomas Malthus continue to be as popular as ever...

Kaa

Hey, a lot of people believe gambling is worthwhile or that an omniscient and unseen deity is watching over them. All kinds of ideas are popular.

[LeeG]

Do you EVER give it a rest?

As though you can discuss unsustainable growth in terms of religious teachings from 1000s of years ago and not the actual factors that make it possible, or what happens in your world when the rest of the world lives like energy kings.

Come on man, homo saps did't get religion all of a sudden in 1800 and decided to screw more. We tapped into an inheritance of energy and GREW from it.



Look at a chart of world population growth and the time "God's teachings" originate from. Time for teachings appropriate for this era.

Then think about the ability of homo saps to deal with resource overshoot when here in the US we've got such resistance to requiring business include contraception coverage in their policies.

[skuthorp]

Hey, a lot of people believe gambling is worthwhile or that an omniscient and unseen deity is watching over them. All kinds of ideas are popular.

We are gambling with the odds that the next big cull won't happen in our lifetime. And relying on "an omniscient and unseen deity" is a gamble as well, with very long odds but plenty of touts.

[LeeG]

We are gambling with the odds that the next big cull won't happen in our lifetime. And relying on "an omniscient and unseen deity" is a gamble as well, with very long odds but plenty of touts.

I don't think 'it' will happen in my lifetime but over lifetimes. No reason to sacrifice present rewards for people who haven't been born . A beer in the hand is worth two in the bush.

[elf]

I dunno, Lee. How young are you?

[LeeG]

I dunno, Lee. How young are you?

57. I'm thinking it would take a cataclysmic event to knock the present system off kilter enough to affect world pop. in my lifetime. There's still a lot of coal to throw in the atmosphere, lots of ocean to pollute.
Then again maybe we'll win the galactic lottery a magic dust from the heavens will provide a free pass.

[skuthorp]

The galactic lottery already brings us plenty of dust, it's galactic pebbles that have been the problem in the past.
I look at crashing fish population part caused by overfishing; the warming of the climate for whatever reasons; the diminution of arable land and availability of drinking water; population pressure and the inadequate sharing of resources and I wonder when the tipping point will be reached and how quick the slide will be.

[elf]

57. I'm thinking it would take a cataclysmic event to knock the present system off kilter enough to affect world pop. in my lifetime. There's still a lot of coal to throw in the atmosphere, lots of ocean to pollute.
Then again maybe we'll win the galactic lottery a magic dust from the heavens will provide a free pass.

Check this out.

http://www.rollingstone.com/politics...#ixzz215WsxaT2

[hanleyclifford]

As though you can discuss unsustainable growth in terms of religious teachings from 1000s of years ago and not the actual factors that make it possible, or what happens in your world when the rest of the world lives like energy kings.

Come on man, homo saps did't get religion all of a sudden in 1800 and decided to screw more. We tapped into an inheritance of energy and GREW from it.



Look at a chart of world population growth and the time "God's teachings" originate from. Time for teachings appropriate for this era.

Then think about the ability of homo saps to deal with resource overshoot when here in the US we've got such resistance to requiring business include contraception coverage in their policies.

Lot of truth in this post. The world has been riding that "energy horse" without thought for the future. Interesting how this ties into the issue of national health insurance.

[skuthorp]

And then there's this, and it's related in that money is power in politics and taints the decision making process.
http://www.rollingstone.com/politics...eform-20120510

There isn't going to be an easy way out for the worlds present species, but democracies are particularly unsuited to making hard decisions, so...............
What is going to happen will, and the consequences will, and it will not be good in the short term. Of course the planet will survive and some relict species and organisms will benefit and the process will begin again.

[LeeG]

The galactic lottery already brings us plenty of dust, it's galactic pebbles that have been the problem in the past.
I look at crashing fish population part caused by overfishing; the warming of the climate for whatever reasons; the diminution of arable land and availability of drinking water; population pressure and the inadequate sharing of resources and I wonder when the tipping point will be reached and how quick the slide will be.

A singular tipping point could be made up of multiple ones so the back door magical thinking says you just gotta get hop off each wobbly equilibrium before it resets to a lower level.
No one is harvesting us (yet!) so it's off to the next stone.

[Bob Adams]

We'll probably do it to ourselfs:

They're rioting in Africa
They're starving in Spain
There's hurricanes in Florida
And Texas needs rain
the Whole world is festering iwht unhappy souls
The French hate the Germans, the Germans hate the Poles
Italians hate Yugoslavs, South Africans hate the Dutch
And I don't like Anybody very much.


But we can be tranquil and thankful and proud
For man's been endowed with a mushroom-shaped cloud
And we know for certain that some lucky day
Someone will set the spark off and we will all be blown away


They're rioting in Africa
There's strife in Iran
What nature doesn't do to us
Will be done by our fellow Man
-- Sheldon Harnick @1958

[LeeG]

Check this out.

http://www.rollingstone.com/politics...#ixzz215WsxaT2

yeppers, but the demonization of the oil and gas industry with this rhetoric is a waste of time and a distraction from the data. It's like calling Iraq, Iran and Syria an Axis of Evil. Oil and gas industry isn't an enemy. That's just dumb ass thinking. Below the x is a paragraph excerpted from the Rolling Stones article.

Xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

But what all these climate numbers make painfully, usefully clear is that the planet does indeed have an enemy – one far more committed to action than governments or individuals. Given this hard math, we need to view the fossil-fuel industry in a new light. It has become a rogue industry, reckless like no other force on Earth. It is Public Enemy Number One to the survival of our planetary civilization. "Lots of companies do rotten things in the course of their business – pay terrible wages, make people work in sweatshops – and we pressure them to change those practices," says veteran anti-corporate leader Naomi Klein, who is at work on a book about the climate crisis. "But these numbers make clear that with the fossil-fuel industry, wrecking the planet is their business model. It's what they do."

Read more: http://www.rollingstone.com/politics...#ixzz21Xyiywif

[Bob Adams]

Um. Did you radically change your mind between the first paragraph and the second? X-D

Kaa

Forget it....he's on a roll.

[JimD]

There is no point of balance between population and resources.

I agree in the sense that there is no static balance. Balance is a constantly changing rise and fall and sometimes the fall is absolute and permanent.

[JimD]

So we were commanded. Thoughts?

You may have been commanded, Bob. I'm quite sure I wasn't.

[LeeG]

Um. Did you radically change your mind between the first paragraph and the second? X-D

Kaa

No, I made a dumb-ass editing error. Will correct

[Bob Adams]

You may have been commanded, Bob. I'm quite sure I wasn't.

Hey I made 2, replacements for my wife and myself. It's what I read in the Bible, thought it would make a good thread title.

[TomF]

We've already overpopulated the earth - time to scale back a bit.

Any decent farmer (or even hobby-gardener) will tell you that being fruitful and multiplying are only synonymous terms for a while, at which point they diverge. What might have made sense in a fable about the first two people on earth could quite possibly not make sense several billion of us later, eh?

[Peerie Maa]

I think that you have got to remember the context that existed when the idea became a part of the tribe's meme. Children were lucky to survive to procreate, crop failures could wipe out entire families, and border skirmishes with the neighboring tribes reduced the male population. Of course the custodians of the tribe’s ethics would want the fertile to breed like rabbits by way of keeping up with the losses.

[PeterSibley]

It is scary, but it is the undeveloped world that is a most risk. In much of the industrialized world the birth rate has dropped. In some, below the replacement rate. Japan and Russia are two examples.

Japan is a very interesting example. Until the "opening up" by foreign warships Japan had had a stable population under the Meiji regime for perhaps 150 years .No wars , foreign or civil. A very interesting example of stability that I have been unable to find much explanation for.

[purri]

That's a rubbish site mate. WHO has the real stats and FWIW Oz has a replacement rate just below 2.1. Population increase has been through immigration, particularly from the third world.

http://www.worldpopulationbalance.org/faq

draw your own conclusions.....

regards,
Waddie

[LeeG]

Found this graph about resource depletion. Of course if rate of depletion declines it will last longer but it's hard to imagine it not declining with world population increasing. Now review attempts in Congress over the last 20yrs to raise fuel tax. As a country we act as though fossil Fuel resources are infinite. People have enough reasoning ability to plan for a crop cycle or 30yr retirement fund but to actually sacrifice a present reward for a theorized one for subsequent generations let alone other forms of life just isn't happening.

http://www.bbc.com/future/story/2012...ce-environment

[Phil Y]

If you compare consumption by the rich against consumption by the poor, there is a staggering difference. I suspect that the world can sustain a much bigger human population for a very long time, if the humans start to consume less. The poor can't consume much less, so that will fall to the rich. Funnily enough, on a day to day basis a lot of the poor people seem to be every bit as happy as a lot of the rich people. I'm not saying I'm volunteering to go poor in order to save the world. I guess I've become used to being rich. Poverty would be a struggle. But the world will not immediately come to an end when we (the rich) can no longer all have 3 cars in the driveway, overseas holidays and a flat screen TV.

[PeterSibley]

Seconded Phil, I remember when I first went to PNG as a naive middle class 20 years old, I was amazed at the difference in consumption and that was 42 years ago. The differences were in medicine and tropical disease cures , beyond that I'd have been quite happy to swap places ...I guess I did for quite a while.

[Phil Y]

Most of the population here is still really not far from stone age subsistence. They live in huts built from bush materials. No power, no running water. They live on what they produce in small, hand tilled vegetable gardens. They hunt for small rodents by burning grassland. They hunt birds with a slingshot. Many earn a very modest income selling excess produce at roadside stalls. Its a hard life-and a relatively short life. But by and large they are proud and happy people. Savage as all hell. But proud and happy. Their impact on the world, their consumption, is minuscule compared to your average Australian, American, or European family.

[PeterSibley]

Interestingly highland agriculture probably predates most European agriculture .
http://www.jps.auckland.ac.nz/docs/M...ndahalf065.pdf