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Thread: Revisiting Obama's remarks

  1. #1
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    Default Revisiting Obama's remarks

    Since I'm starting a new contract today, and will probably not be around the bilge as often as I usually am, for a month or two, I figured I'd leave with one final rant.

    This is in regard to Obama's remark:

    "If you were successful, somebody along the line gave you some help. There was a great teacher somewhere in your life. Somebody helped to create this unbelievable American system that we have that allowed you to thrive. Somebody invested in roads and bridges. If you've got a business, you didn't build that. Somebody else made that happen. The Internet didn't get invented on its own. Government research created the Internet so that all the companies could make money off the Internet. The point is, is that when we succeed, we succeed because of our individual initiative, but also because we do things together."
    Naturally, the political chattering class didn't miss the opportunity to take the remarks out of context.... in a modern world where the partisans look to extract any sequence of words, strip it from context, and present it as something monstrously offensive, it wasn't surprising that this would happen. The extreme partisans like to take all arguments, strip every possible nuance or shading, and then project the most extreme possible interpretation to a statement or act.... which is why Social Security becomes a 'Ponzi scheme', Obamacare 'destroys the best quality health care in the world', is 'socialism' (or communism or marxism, depending on how far to the fringe the speaker is), and so on.

    However, Obama was 100% right.... even if his expression, WITH the context, was somewhat less elegant than it could have been. Others have made the same argument, and the same proposition, is far more elegant ways... the most influential of which (to me, at least), was 'Outliers', by Malcolm Gladwell, which I would highly recommend to anyone, right or left.

    This is a theme that I've read a great deal about, and it's a direct contradiction to the Ayn-Randian myth about the 'self-made' man, the Titan of business and industry, the notion of elevating men to virtually god-like positions of virtue based on their own self-interest. It's a crock of crap, and there are many reasons why.

    To me, the most interesting comment on this subject came from no less of a 'commie pinko marxist socialist' than Milton Friedman, dean of the conservative economists... who, in a brief moment of total candor, exclaimed that 'success in America is largely a matter of luck'.

    Did he mean that individual initiative, hard work, innovation, shouldn't be credited to someone who has been successful?

    Of course not.

    However, the presumption that those characteristics are the ONLY factors which lead to success in America is simply wrong.... and talking about roads and bridges just isn't a remotely adequate argument for contradicting the Randian myth.

    In virtually every example and situation, it is possible to point out the ways in which 'luck', as well as the overall economic system in America, was a substantial (if not exclusive) contributor to sucessful people. Gladwell provides numerous examples. Bill Gates is one of them.... yes, he could not possibly have built Microsoft to the very top of the software world without having had the intelligence, initiative, drive, and ambition for success..... but was that all it took? Gladwell points out a number of factors in Gate's early life.... advantages that ONLY could have been given to him by having a wealthy father, well connected, who managed to get his son opportunities to work in the computer area (detailed in 'Outliers', along with other examples).

    Then there was the matter of 'luck'.... in Gate's case, the luck of being in the right place at the right time, just when IBM was a step ahead of Apple and others in creating a desktop computer solution that the entire world would embrace as the first personal computer to actually be useful on the desktops of businesses and schools around the world. Timing, as they say, is everything. Today, there are hundreds of thousands of individuals with overwhelmingly more software smarts than Gates, at the same age he was, who, by virtue of having the misfortune of being born 30 years too late, missed the very same opportunity. Old Milton Friedman was right.

    One could hardly argue, in another case, that George W. Bush, while certainly having skills and abilities, didn't benefit from huge advantages provided by the luck of having been born to his father.... admission to Ivy League schools based on legacy admissions policies, the ability to duck out of the Vietnam war by getting a post in the reserve unit largely populated by the sons of rich men, getting set up in business with the help of his father's connections, making a fortune as an owner of the Texas Rangers by having the connections to benefit from eminent domain proceedings..... all of these things had nothing to do with George W. Bush himself. This does NOT mean that he didn't have the gift of good political sense... but one certainly couldn't say that all of those advantages were irrelevant to his ability to reach the highest office in the land.

    Being born in America, alone, provides some of these advantages. Warren Buffet freely admits that, were he born in India, he couldn't possibly have been as successful in business as he has become. It's not just 'roads and bridges'.... it's so many other influences.

    This does NOT diminish the skills and abilities of the people I'm referring to.... people without those skills and abilities, REGARDLESS of whatever special advantages they may have benefited from, could not be anywhere near as successful......

    .....but the notion of the 'self-made man'?

    Absurd.
    Tish happens (I'm dyslexic)



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    Default Re: Revisiting Obama's remarks

    Norman, you, of all people, should know that the internet was invented by the military and subverted to commercial purposes by civilian entrepreneurs.
    BTW, if government is so influential of economic success how come the economy hasn't been fixed by it?

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    Default Re: Revisiting Obama's remarks

    Yes, of course. We certainly wouldn't want the notion of a self-made man, lingering about in a country where handouts are the key to votes.

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    Default Re: Revisiting Obama's remarks

    Oh, and best of luck on the new contract!

    That's exactly what you were talking about, for your big decision on going back to work for the old company.

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    Default Re: Revisiting Obama's remarks

    Quote Originally Posted by David W Pratt View Post
    Norman, you, of all people, should know that the internet was invented by the military and subverted to commercial purposes by civilian entrepreneurs.
    BTW, if government is so influential of economic success how come the economy hasn't been fixed by it?
    What makes you think the government hasn't been successful? Since the government is the only institution to attempt anything to save the economy whose to say it hasn't been saved? Would any of us be wasting our time on this site if the US dollar had been reduced to nothing and our bank accounts had been wiped out?
    You're appraisal of this administration is rather unrealistic. Neither this administration nor any other has the power to be a fairy godmother who can right all the governmental mistakes that have taken place over the last 30 or so years.

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    Default Re: Revisiting Obama's remarks

    Quote Originally Posted by Art Reinhert View Post
    I'm pleased to see you have a new job. The consequences of your new employment will be beneficial for you and for the bilge.
    Poor Art...someone else has an opinion and the ability to post online. It must be tough for you.

    Jeff C

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    Default Re: Revisiting Obama's remarks

    This is one of the problems with Obama. It was a poorly thought out statement, given at a time in the campaign when it served no good purpose. It caused him more harm than any good that could have come from a well conveyed statement on the subject.
    I never learned from a man who agreed with me.

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    Default Re: Revisiting Obama's remarks

    Jeff, I hope you washed your hands well after inserting that quote into your post.
    "These damned cockaroaches are messing up my vibrissae!"

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    Default Re: Revisiting Obama's remarks

    Quote Originally Posted by BrianW View Post
    Oh, and best of luck on the new contract!

    That's exactly what you were talking about, for your big decision on going back to work for the old company.
    Thanks... But I'm not working for my old company.... The new contract is with a startup developing a new type of equipment for high end audio.... Should last just a few months. They need help with the circuit design.
    Tish happens (I'm dyslexic)



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    Default Re: Revisiting Obama's remarks

    Quote Originally Posted by David W Pratt View Post
    Norman, you, of all people, should know that the internet was invented by the military and subverted to commercial purposes by civilian entrepreneurs.
    BTW, if government is so influential of economic success how come the economy hasn't been fixed by it?
    I get the impression that you didn't actually read my post... Since one of the key points was that it isn't only (or even primarily) the govt that makes success possible in America. It is a whole host of factors.... And success is vastly enhanced by forces outside of any person's will, ability, or perseverance.

    But, like I mentioned early in the op, there will always be people who will take a balanced perspective and spin it into something extreme.
    Tish happens (I'm dyslexic)



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    Default Re: Revisiting Obama's remarks

    Quote Originally Posted by Norman Bernstein View Post
    Thanks... But I'm not working for my old company.... The new contract is with a startup developing a new type of equipment for high end audio.... Should last just a few months. They need help with the circuit design.
    Are they giving you a company car, with a driver?..... It'd make a really nice little bonus.... Just for A/C season, of course!
    Never trust a man with a clean workshop.

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    Default Re: Revisiting Obama's remarks

    Quote Originally Posted by Mrleft8 View Post
    Are they giving you a company car, with a driver?..... It'd make a really nice little bonus.... Just for A/C season, of course!
    Hahaha....dream on! It's an awful commute to Waltham in typical stop and go traffic.... It will really suck.

    However, I know what it is like to be unemployed.... Since its a recurring phenomenon for an independent contract engineer... So don't let it be said that I don't know how to be grateful for what I get.
    Tish happens (I'm dyslexic)



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    Default Re: Revisiting Obama's remarks

    Quote Originally Posted by BrianW View Post
    Yes, of course. We certainly wouldn't want the notion of a self-made man, lingering about in a country where handouts are the key to votes.
    Did you actually read the entire op?
    Tish happens (I'm dyslexic)



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    Default Re: Revisiting Obama's remarks

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Pless View Post
    This is one of the problems with Obama. It was a poorly thought out statement, given at a time in the campaign when it served no good purpose. It caused him more harm than any good that could have come from a well conveyed statement on the subject.
    republican lies do cause harm

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    Default Re: Revisiting Obama's remarks

    Quote Originally Posted by Norman Bernstein View Post
    Did you actually read the entire op?
    I skimmed a bunch.

    But really, Obama is confusing matters. First we hear the government doesn't create jobs (pretty handy comment, when you're the president and unemployment is sucking 3 years into your tour), but in the next breath says that successful people can't create business's and jobs without government help.

    Best way to interpret this is to realize Obama didn't improve unemployment (much) nor did he nurture a government environment which helped other create those jobs. Maybe he should stick to attacking Romney's tax returns.

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    Default Re: Revisiting Obama's remarks

    Quote Originally Posted by BrianW View Post
    I skimmed a bunch.

    But really, Obama is confusing matters. First we hear the government doesn't create jobs (pretty handy comment, when you're the president and unemployment is sucking 3 years into your tour), but in the next breath says that successful people can't create business's and jobs without government help.


    this really shows a lack of thought

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    Default Re: Revisiting Obama's remarks

    the question is, is the romney ad misleading and therefore a lie

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    Default Re: Revisiting Obama's remarks

    Quote Originally Posted by wardd View Post
    the question is, is the romney ad misleading and therefore a lie
    Oh here we go again with liberals and their "liar" routine.

    Bunch of three year olds.

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    Default Re: Revisiting Obama's remarks

    Quote Originally Posted by wardd View Post
    [/B]
    this really shows a lack of thought
    Read the edited (last portion) of my post. I think you'll really like it.

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    Default Re: Revisiting Obama's remarks

    Quote Originally Posted by BrianW View Post
    Oh here we go again with liberals and their "liar" routine.

    Bunch of three year olds.
    either it is true or it's not

    did obama say what the romney ad infers he said?

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    Default Re: Revisiting Obama's remarks

    Quote Originally Posted by wardd View Post
    either it is true or it's not

    did obama say what the romney ad infers he said?
    Which ad?

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    Default Re: Revisiting Obama's remarks

    Quote Originally Posted by BrianW View Post
    Which ad?
    never mind

    it's been in the news so i guess you missed it

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    Default Re: Revisiting Obama's remarks

    Quote Originally Posted by BrianW View Post
    I skimmed a bunch.
    Sorry, but there's no equivalent to Cliffs Notes in the bilge. Skimming long posts gives you only a tiny fraction of the argument.

    But really, Obama is confusing matters. First we hear the government doesn't create jobs (pretty handy comment, when you're the president and unemployment is sucking 3 years into your tour), but in the next breath says that successful people can't create business's and jobs without government help.
    No matter how inelegant his script may have been, it isn't even remotely an excuse for distorting what he said, as you just did.

    Obamas intention, and his theme, we're on target. If you discount every external factor which may have contributed to anyone's success, then you could probably delude yourself into believing the myth of the self-made man. If you consider all of those factors, then you can see how silly the myth is.

    Please don't take this as any sort of personal offense, Brian, but just how much would you be willing to dismiss external factors in whatever level of success in life you have achieved.... Especially, in light of your job?
    Tish happens (I'm dyslexic)



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    Default Re: Revisiting Obama's remarks

    Quote Originally Posted by Norman Bernstein View Post
    ...you could probably delude yourself into believing the myth of the self-made man....
    I guess when you've failed at making yourself, it's easy to buy the idea of the "myth."

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    Default Re: Revisiting Obama's remarks

    I figure external factors are pretty even for most folks, not counting being born rich and white. So anyone who builds on that, and creates success at business, has indeed done something for himself/herself.

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    Default Re: Revisiting Obama's remarks

    . . . not counting being born rich and white.
    Aside from that, Mrs. Lincoln, how did you like the play?

    "For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations,
    for nature cannot be fooled."

    Richard Feynman

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    Default Re: Revisiting Obama's remarks

    Quote Originally Posted by BrianW View Post
    I figure external factors are pretty even for most folks, not counting being born rich and white. So anyone who builds on that, and creates success at business, has indeed done something for himself/herself.
    Yes, of course. As the saying goes, the law, in it's equality, prohibits both rich and poor from sleeping under bridges.

    Brian, you can't be serious. Read 'outliers' for a better understanding. Or don't.
    Tish happens (I'm dyslexic)



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    Default Re: Revisiting Obama's remarks

    I'm not getting your point.

    Many of the things created by government are quite race, sex, and gender neutral. Highways, infrastructure, the internet, interstate commerce laws, etc.

    These things are available to all equally, and those who build a business beyond that equality do so for themselves.

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    Default Re: Revisiting Obama's remarks

    Quote Originally Posted by Keith Wilson View Post
    Aside from that, Mrs. Lincoln, how did you like the play?
    I believe from our recent trip to Fords Theater, they had seen the play many times, and liked it enough to go back.

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    Default Re: Revisiting Obama's remarks

    We owe it all to these guys:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i-BJgsCtrfM

    Hoy Vey!

    The only true achiever?

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    Default Re: Revisiting Obama's remarks

    Quote Originally Posted by BrianW View Post
    I figure external factors are pretty even for most folks...........
    I often feel that way, then I notice that 6 million kids per year suffer neglect and abuse in the U.S. You can look at other categories too. It's damn easy to forget that my parents taught me to read and write at age 4.

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    Default Re: Revisiting Obama's remarks

    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Wright View Post
    I often feel that way, then I notice that 6 million kids per year suffer neglect and abuse in the U.S. You can look at other categories too. It's damn easy to forget that my parents taught me to read and write at age 4.
    you didn't teach yourself to read?

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    Default Re: Revisiting Obama's remarks

    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Wright View Post
    I often feel that way, then I notice that 6 million kids per year suffer neglect and abuse in the U.S. You can look at other categories too. It's damn easy to forget that my parents taught me to read and write at age 4.
    I didn't notice Obama talking about abused children. He did talk about roads, bridges, and the internet.

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    Default Re: Revisiting Obama's remarks

    Quote Originally Posted by wardd View Post
    you didn't teach yourself to read?
    Of course not, just apply the Obama factor. Even his parents were taught by government, probably in a school, by teachers, with books from a library.

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    Default Re: Revisiting Obama's remarks

    Not to put too fine a point on things, but that's Elizabeth Warren speaking, last September, though it's a sentiment that needs to be reiterated...vociferously:

    [hr/]
    If you were successful, somebody along the line gave you some help. There was a great teacher somewhere in your life. Somebody helped to create this unbelievable American system that we have that allowed you to thrive. Somebody invested in roads and bridges. If you've got a business, you didn't build that. Somebody else made that happen. The Internet didn't get invented on its own. Government research created the Internet so that all the companies could make money off the Internet. The point is, is that when we succeed, we succeed because of our individual initiative, but also because we do things together."
    [/hr]

    I'm all for Obama, but credit the author.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=htX2usfqMEs
    You would not enjoy Nietzsche, sir. He is fundamentally unsound. — P.G. Wodehouse (Carry On, Jeeves)

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    Default Re: Revisiting Obama's remarks

    Quote Originally Posted by Phillip Allen View Post
    I wonder who it is that teaches the stupid to be stupid?
    the ones that teach the stupid that they can protect themselves from the gov with whatever pop guns they may have

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    Default Re: Revisiting Obama's remarks

    Quote Originally Posted by Phillip Allen View Post
    I wonder who it is that teaches the stupid to be stupid?
    Democrats teaching Democrats, often in a public school......

    regards,
    Waddie

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    Default Re: Revisiting Obama's remarks

    Quote Originally Posted by Waddie View Post
    Democrats teaching Democrats, often in a public school......

    regards,
    Waddie
    Since you're a retired teacher, I guess we should yeild to your authority on the topic of stupid, eh?
    "Do old boats dream dreams?"
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    Default Re: Revisiting Obama's remarks

    Quote Originally Posted by BrianW View Post
    I'm not getting your point.
    I know!

    Quote Originally Posted by BrianW View Post
    Many of the things created by government are quite race, sex, and gender neutral. Highways, infrastructure, the internet, interstate commerce laws, etc.
    Stop obsessing about just government... it is just one factor in a multitude of factors. Obama may have foolishly used infrastructure to make the point, but try to reread what I wrote; it goes WAY beyond infrastructure, and extends to so many other factors. I quoted examples of both Bill Gates and George Bush to illustrate that these successful men, far from being self made, were overwhelmingly helped by circumstance... namely, the circumstance of their birth, their parentage, and so on. When Milton Friedman talked about success being a matter of luck, I believe that the context of his remark was related to having been born in the right environment, with the right parents, and with the right opportunities, and at the right time in history.

    Once again (and I cannot emphasize this enough), I am NOT saying (and neither did Obama), that personal character, initiative, hard work, etc., weren't essential elements of their success.... they WERE.... but that success was ALSO enabled by so many other factors, that you could hardly say that either of them (or so many other examples) were 'self-made men'.

    Whatever success I've had in life (and I consider myself to have been modestly successful) might have been partially due to my own initiative, intelligence, etc.... but it was also tremendously helped by parents who emphasized (and demanded) high educational achievement, and who could afford to send me to a good university to get an engineering degree. No small amount of credit goes to two or three professional mentors who actually kick-started the deepest components of my interest in my profession... and a wife who made it easy for me to pursue these efforts back when I wanted and needed to devote a great deal of time away from her, in order to advance my career. Even the particular era of my birth, with respect to my career (the dawn of the microprocessor age, the original Intel 8080, and so on) coincided with an opportunity for my particular professional specialties.

    Am I a 'self-made' man? Hardly.

    Was Mitt Romney a self-made man? Born with a silver spoon in his mouth, multiple degrees from Harvard, a wealthy father, etc.... he owes a debt of gratitude to the same sort of 'luck' that Milton Friedman talked about.... perhaps more than just a little. I am NOT suggesting that Romney isn't a smart, capable businessman.... but 'self-made'? What a joke!

    I am also not suggesting that rare individuals with circumstance and luck seemingly against them don't sometimes rise to the top... but I would bet that, when their circumstances were examined closely, we'd see that they, too, owed others, and other things, a debt of gratitude for their success... but it is NOT a level playing field, by any means.

    Quote Originally Posted by BrianW View Post
    These things are available to all equally, and those who build a business beyond that equality do so for themselves.
    Think hard about your own career. Did you REALLY do it ALL, yourself? Or did you get some help, no matter how indirect? Could you have succeeded without ANY help?
    Tish happens (I'm dyslexic)



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    Default Re: Revisiting Obama's remarks

    Let us hear from Mitt Romney on the subject.

    This is an eminently sensible - so obvious as to be trite, even - bit from his speech at the opening of the 2002 Winter Olympics:

    Tonight we cheer the Olympians, who only yesterday were children themselves. As we watch them over the next 16 days, we affirm that our aspirations, and those of our children and grandchildren, can become reality. We salute you Olympians – both because you dreamed and because you paid the price to make your dreams real. You guys pushed yourself, drove yourself, sacrificed, trained and competed time and again at winning and losing.

    You Olympians, however, know you didn’t get here solely on your own power. For most of you, loving parents, sisters or brothers, encouraged your hopes, coaches guided, communities built venues in order to organize competitions. All Olympians stand on the shoulders of those who lifted them. We’ve already cheered the Olympians, let’s also cheer the parents, coaches, and communities. All right!
    Here it is; the quote's at about 1:40



    "For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations,
    for nature cannot be fooled."

    Richard Feynman

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    Default Re: Revisiting Obama's remarks

    And, as if the point couldn't be made any more clear:

    Star of Romney Ad Did Receive Government Assistance

    In a Mitt Romney ad last week, a stern Jack Gilchrist of Gilchrist Metal Fabricating tells President Obama that his family -- and not the government -- built his company.

    But John DiStaso reports Gilchrist "did receive some government help for his business" in 1999 when the company received $800,000 in tax-exempt revenue bonds "to set up a second manufacturing plant and purchase equipment to produce high definition television broadcasting equipment."

    In addition, Gilchrist Metal received a U.S. Small Business Administration loan of around $500,000 in the 1980s and has received several sub-contracts from the U.S. Navy.
    People who think they are 'self-made' are engaging in self-deception....

    And Romney ought to vet his examples more closely.
    Tish happens (I'm dyslexic)



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    Default Re: Revisiting Obama's remarks

    Quote Originally Posted by Curtism View Post
    Since you're a retired teacher, I guess we should yeild to your authority on the topic of stupid, eh?
    Yep, I saw lots of it in the trenches. Teachers pretended to teach and students pretended to learn - especially Algebra. What I really loved was pretending to teach algebra to a 9th grader who couldn't read a ruler or add a single column of numbers. We taught literature to high school kids who couldn't write a comprehensible sentence. Many of us "teachers" knew we were doing them a disservice but we had no control over the curriculum. So we churned out student after student who couldn't balance a checkbook or write a cover letter. But most all of them received diplomas. I'm just thankful I'm now retired so I can speak honestly about it and not have to sit through the BS meetings where everyone pretended we were doing such a fine job "considering what we had to work with".

    regards,
    Waddie

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    Default Re: Revisiting Obama's remarks

    Quote Originally Posted by wardd View Post
    the question is, is the romney ad misleading and therefore a lie


    Politifact says the Romney ad is misleading.

    http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-me...p-talking-abo/

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    Default Re: Revisiting Obama's remarks

    It's interesting how many lefties genuinely do not understand what's wrong with the Obama's remark. Interesting and somewhat scary.

    May I add a quote from Joe Biden?

    "Every single great idea that has marked the 21st century, the 20th century and the 19th century has required government vision and government incentive

    Yes, he actually did say that (http://www.nydailynews.com/blogs/dai...#ixzz13VWYcOmA)

    Kaa

  45. #45
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    Default Re: Revisiting Obama's remarks

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaa View Post
    It's interesting how many lefties genuinely do not understand what's wrong with the Obama's remark. Interesting and somewhat scary.

    May I add a quote from Joe Biden?

    "Every single great idea that has marked the 21st century, the 20th century and the 19th century has required government vision and government incentive

    Yes, he actually did say that (http://www.nydailynews.com/blogs/dai...#ixzz13VWYcOmA)

    Kaa
    Kaa, will you provide us with a list of great ideas that did not benefit from government vision and incentive.

  46. #46
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    Default Re: Revisiting Obama's remarks

    Quote Originally Posted by Donn View Post
    I guess when you've failed at making yourself, it's easy to buy the idea of the "myth."

    I think this clip speaks volumes

    http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26315908/#48294948
    Congress begins every day with a prayer. Enough said.

  47. #47
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    Default Re: Revisiting Obama's remarks

    Quote Originally Posted by John Smith View Post
    I think this clip speaks volumes

    http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26315908/#48294948
    Guess I'm the second one to post this.

    Here's a question for all those who think a successful business has had no help from governement. Where do they file their patent, and how do they protect their intellectual property. Who do you go to in order to make sure contracts are lived up to? How do you get your goods or services to your customers without the roads, airports, and maintained harbors?

    You register your name/trademark and it is protected by the government. You have running water because of the government. You have workers who speak English and have some knowledge of physics because of public schools.

    Anyone who doesn't believe this stuff is simply in a state of denial.
    Congress begins every day with a prayer. Enough said.

  48. #48
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    Default Re: Revisiting Obama's remarks

    Quote Originally Posted by Shang View Post
    Kaa, will you provide us with a list of great ideas that did not benefit from government vision and incentive.
    So, I take it you agree with Joe Biden? :-)

    By the way, the quote says "require", not "benefit".

    Kaa

  49. #49
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    Default Re: Revisiting Obama's remarks

    as i have said, a rightie could crash land on a lifeless alien planet and become wealthy in 24 hours, because they would own everything

  50. #50
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    Default Re: Revisiting Obama's remarks

    Quote Originally Posted by Shang View Post


    Politifact says the Romney ad is misleading.

    http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-me...p-talking-abo/
    In other words... it's a typical political ad.

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