Chappelle skiff

[davebrown]

http://www.duckworksmagazine.com/04/...e/index.cfm%20

The above article includes what appear to be pretty detailed information about a Chesapeake style skiff. For some reason, my computer won't let me enlarge them.

I have Chappelle's Small Sailing Craft, but I do not have his boatbuilding tome. Are the above plans in that? Are they available anywhere? Does anyone know of any live examples (for photos) of the build described in the article?

As an aside, if I built a sailing skiff, I am thinking I am going to build the Bessie Lee. I got the plans yesterday and although minimal, they are adequate.

I am at the fun stage of dreaming about what to build next.

[Peerie Maa]

To be continued

[Peerie Maa]

The most important bit

Hope that helps.

[Thad]

Nice! That should help. Painful rowing these boats with a high centerboard case so you just have to sail.

[hokiefan]

Nice! That should help. Painful rowing these boats with a high centerboard case so you just have to sail.

At a quick glance it is not in Boatbuilding. As to rowing, rig it to scull or row standing up facing forward. Nice looking skiff.

Cheers,

Bobby

[Canoeyawl]

I think it is in this book, along with a bunch of other beauties

$5.00
http://www.tillerbooks.com/Chesapeak...ing_Skiffs.php

[hokiefan]

I think it is in this book, along with a bunch of other beauties

$5.00
http://www.tillerbooks.com/Chesapeak...ing_Skiffs.php

Lots of lovely boats in that booklet, but not this one.

Bobby

[Wayne Jeffers]

The plans sold by the Smithsonian that are designated "HIC-000" (Chapelle's initials, plus a sequential number,) such as this one, do not appear in any of Chapelle's books. And the Ship Plans catalog from the Smithsonian has no illustrations.

It's a shame more of these old plans are not better publicized. I'm sure there are many gems which did not appear in Chapelle's books.

Wayne

[rbj37]

Google:
Building a Chesapeake Bay Crabbing Skiff for a build, start to finish.

[davebrown]

I lost track of this post and did not notice the replies until this morning. Thanks for info all. Jake, I ordered that booklet, although I understand from the later post that this particular skiff is not in it.

[Canoeyawl]

I know of one (shallow) v-bottom skiff built from the lines in that book, it is a great boat.

[Sharpie21]

I have been building this boat. My progress is detailed in this thread:

http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...ned-Sharpie-15

[Eddiebou]

Marking this thread.

[NickW]

There's a blog here detailing a plywood build of the skiff http://skiffbuilding.blogspot.co.uk/

Nick

[hokiefan]

I lost track of this post and did not notice the replies until this morning. Thanks for info all. Jake, I ordered that booklet, although I understand from the later post that this particular skiff is not in it.

Despite not having this skiff, the booklet is quite interesting. A number of nice boats in there.

Cheers,

Bobby

[Eddiebou]

It's cool to look back on some of the attached threads here.

Dave, "at the fun stage of dreaming about what to build next." Yeah, me too. So d'you really want to build a seaside bateau? I keep dreaming about building a log canoe. I started a scale model of one a year or two ago, yes, built out of little logs. But I screwed up the main log and quit.

When I first got a copy of Chapell's Crab skiff booklet, Man, I couldn't put it down. At the time, I was very focussed on trying to find info on Katie-K. The Reedville Fisherman's museum had told me that the CBMM had a similar boat, which turned out to be Bessie-Lee. Notice on the last page of the crab skiff book, Chapelle sais he didn't get the chance to measure the skiffs of the western shore. He briefly mentions the Potomac river dory.

For whatever it's forth, I got the chance to take the helm of a restored 1920's Smith Island crab skiff last weekend. I wish I had a picture (sorry) This boat is owned by a friend, restored back in the late '80s, early 90's by another friend. It might have originally been built for sail, but has since been powered. It now has a single cyl 4 hp motor with a flywheel. No transmission, so you better be pointing in the direction you want to go when you throw the flywheel. This boat was really tender at 18' long and about 3' wide. I guess it had about 4 inches of freeboard. It was hard to steer with that big prop pushing water around the outboard rudder.

[davebrown]

You're killing me with that story Eddie! Those boats are going to be gone forever, but you get to see them and enjoy the real old timers! 18x3!!


Yes, the Bessie Lee. I have long admired her. Now I have the plans. I am organizing this and that for the build. I have my second child arriving in two weeks. That pales in comparison to getting the damn rigging on my Coquina (hereinafter, "Mythos") to work. I can't seem to get the rigging permanent enough to throw the boat on trailer and launch. I show up at the dock looking like I have been lost at sea for five years. I can see how great these gaff rigs would be if you slip your boat...which I don't.


I digress. I can't get the Bessie Lee out of my head. And you know what that means, Eddie...

By the way, I am going to have to figure out some kind of hybrid for that forefoot. I am going to build out of ply. Maybe file bottom for first 18" or so...?

[davebrown]

Anyone see any Chesapeake style skiffs rigged lug? Eddie, do you have any photos of your boat sails up?

[davebrown]

Here are some photos from the Virginia Coast via our friend EddieBou (Eddie, corrrect me if any information is wrong and I will edit).

[davebrown]

Here is a photo of Eddie's boat. Not only is this boat gorgeous, but Eddie built it by taking measurements off of one of the old timers. For some reason my email would not download any larger photo than I have posted--I could not paste a bigger photo.

[davebrown]

Eddie's boat, as seen by one of the barn cats:


Many thanks to Eddiebou for sending these over. Sorry I couldn't get them to download larger.

[Eddiebou]

The top photo is of the schooner James A Garfield (I believe that was the name). Anyhow it belonged to a friend of mines' grandfather. He told me the little boy laying on was cabin was his father. Look closely at the sailing skiff under the stern. Notice how far aft the oars and oarlocks are positioned. This is probably some type of potomac river skiff. It certainly has a narrow transom, nice looking in my opinion.

The next photo is a Sinepunxent skiff, like Bessie Lee, owned by the Newport News Mariners Museum.

The photos of my boat are simply for comparison. I have seen photos of whole fleets of these boats working the oyster bars. It appears to have been pretty common to unship the mizzen when working. The original that I coppied didn't have oarlock gudgeons or a sculling notch.
As opposed to the great flair of the sinepunxent skiff, mine is rather slab sided. This is a much more comfortable arrangement, allowing you to face the washboard with your feet straight out in front of you while tonging, fishing, whatever. Of course, the potomac river boats didn't have to go out of ocean inlets.

[davebrown]

Here is another photo of the Sinepunxent Skiff, like the Bessie Lee:



Simple mast step, same boat:



Centerboard setup with pin:

[davebrown]

here is the engine from a Smith Island Skiff:

[davebrown]

The beginning of a log canoe, Chesapeake style.

[davebrown]

About the above photos, Eddie writes:

The first 3 photos are of a Sinepunxent skiff like Bessie Lee. Note the iron pennant on the CB, the drift bulging the side of the trunk, and the placement of the mizzen sheet cleat on the tiller. Ironically, I ended up putting my mizzen cleat in the same place (unwittingly). I only noticed this after pulling this photo for you. The old photo of the sailing skiff is interesting to me. It was taken at a friends house. I noticed the skiff sitting beneath the stern of the schooner. Look at the placement of the oarlocks, so far aft. When I asked about the photo, the owner said, "Oh, That's my grandfathers schooner. And that little boy layin' on the cabin is my daddy." It was taken in Kinsale Va, about 1920. Kinsale is only a few miles from where the original Katie-K was built, very similar.
I sent 2 photos of Katie-K-II, just for comparison. One of the engine in the old Sm Isl. crab skiff that I got to ride in a few weeks ago.

[davebrown]

I love these Crab/Oyster boats! I might have to build twenty or thirty of them, just to have them around my yard beautifying the nieghborhood.

[davebrown]

A bit duplicative but here are some more photos of Eddie's skiff, Katie K2:


Bow and jib:



Nice clean sternsheets:



Thanks Eddie for the wonderful photos!

[davebrown]

I think this thread has turned out to be either a monologue or a dialogue between me, Eddiebou and Canoeyawl. Now, you Pacific NW fellers what don't like skiffs, how can you dislike this beauty:



I'm not saying it's in the same class as the Acorn Skiff or the perfection of the HV 13. But when it comes to a jaunty boat that will make anyone smile when they see her (him?) plying the Whale Road...

[Canoeyawl]

Skiff ? What skiff? Nice brick building
It looks like typical Virginia work, American bond, six stretcher courses between each header course.

[johnw]

Hey, I like 'em. Once owned an 18' skiff from American Small Sailing Craft, which was a great boat. And I have been lurking on the thread, just not commenting.

And the bow of Meerkat, the boat I just built, is not so different from the bow in post 21.

[davebrown]

I noticed in a post or two from McMullen that one characteristic that he did not like on skiffs was the plumb bow, as the above photo has. Would anyone like to articulate what is disagreeable about them? I can see how the spoon bow of a Sooty Tern might take the waves with greater delicacy than the battleship snout on that William Henry...too much slapping? This is not a flat bottom of course.

[Breakaway]

There's nothing disagreeable about a plumb stem in an of itself. It adds waterline length and works fine in short chop, which might be called a typical Chesapeake Bay condition. However in tide rips, areas with lots of current surfing downsea,which might be called expected conditions in the PNW, they can tend to act like a bow rudder and make steering less reliable.

So its not the stem, but what waters a given stem finds itself in.

Kevin

[johnw]

Honestly, I never had a problem steering a sharpie in the Northwest, but then, The James prefers to drive into the heart of the maelstrom. If you don't insist on sailing where wind and water are moving strongly in opposite directions, plumb bows are not a big problem. If you actually like the challenge of negotiating steep seas, it's best to have the right boat for it. If you're happy to pick your weather, the universe of possibly suitable boats opens up.

[Breakaway]

^ +1 Excellent perspective, John.

Kevin

[Eddiebou]

Is the boat shown in post #29 one of the Alexandria seaport foundation (?) Potomac river dories? She's a beaut.

[erster]

I think this thread has turned out to be either a monologue or a dialogue between me, Eddiebou and Canoeyawl. Now, you Pacific NW fellers what don't like skiffs, how can you dislike this beauty:

Oh some of those fellers have proudly told us east coasters that those folks and folks that built those sharpies and skipjacks or even deadrise hulls are and I quote:

UnSkilled.

Some of the same have actually said that people that add fluff to their interpretations of simple minded sharpies or skipjack hulls are hiding all the flaws too. So don't worry too much about what gets past that iron fence of ideas along the Miss. River you know.

But anyway in regards to these designs and in particular to the plumb stems, I will add my unskilled and opinionated opinion that may cross hairs with all the experts too. But what new?

The basic designs in sailboats does lend itself to certain handling qualities or the lack of. These sharpies and skipjacks lack overall bottom by comparison to a lot of the well known round bilge deeper draft hulls by comparison. Thnik about the well known dory designed sailboats which incorporate interior balast under floorboards or in bilge areas in those types of designs that also lacks wetted surface under sail and just another example of contrasting designs and its requirements.

If you add that to any amount of sail area above the hull, steerage and forward angle to windward is naturally altered and contrasting differences are just a fact. Of course we know that there are reasons why certain boats came about and one is the fact of waters are different in different locations in regards to depths. But when you have a shallow draft boat you cannot have the lack of the bow area in particular in the water or you would end up with a real styrofoam cup on the water and an unstable one too in some instances.

Its no different than what you would have in power boats that are deep vee forward and really sharp in half to two thirds of the wetted. Without some additional strakes which gives those boats some reserve lift in the power boats forward, the boat in almost all cases nose dives and will not handle correctly either. So the basic design perimeters of the shallow draft boats such as the sharpies and skipjacks require an entirely different shape and profile features such as the plumb stems too. This extends the wetted bottom area across the length of the boat and expanded the bottom surface to make the boat as stable as possible when the lack of balast which also requires the centerboard feature for shallow draft and when wetted surface below waterline is lacking. Of course you can also rake the stem more, but this also modifies a lot of the hull shape, freeboard and side flare too which can also complicate the build too.


Sure the basic design also is well known for the lack of windward properties . But in shallow draft waters we are not talking about long passages either that does require a more direct route either. Frankly I don't worry about what others dislike about my particular likes as long as a particular design works for me for a given set of circumstances and a particular boating region. If we wait to get approval of what everyone else would approve of, we may find ourselves sitting here all day like so many others talking about boats instead of boating at all and really boating in areas by ourselves too with certain types of boats.

The birds don't even know you are there either when nesting in the marshlands either, as we slip along on a leisurely pace.

[johnw]

My sharpie, Black Swan, does very well to windward. The sharpies I've sailed that do not sail terriblywell to windward have shallow cetenterboards admirably suited to oyster tonging. It's not a basic defect in the hull type, just a question of what the designer is trying to achieve. I think you're selling sharpies short, erster.

[jim_cricket]

I love these boats, myself, and would really like to build a skiff like the Bessie Lee one day. I shot some pics of the two sail bateau built at CBMM one dreary day a couple of years ago.







Wish I had pics of this one rigged.



Kevin Brennan built a nice one years ago named Cinnamon Girl. Many of you know that boat from past St. Mike's events, I'm sure.

Like John How's boat, my own Windward skiff, Cricket, a modified sharpie type, goes quite well to windward, tacks unfailingly, and maneuvers up little bitty creeks beautifully. I love the shallow board and deep skeg. My boat sails with the heel of the stem and gripe immersed, like a bateau, even though there's not much deadrise forward, and this helps, I think.



This is Cricket in one of those little creeks, getting a reef last fall.

[holzbt]

Wish I had pics of this one rigged.

[davebrown]

Thanks for posting the above photos. My comments above are not meant to express the idea that I am worried about whether other people like these boats. Rather, I think there are some objective facts about how the Bessie Lee type boats (which are V-bottom) compare to either flat bottom skiffs, on one side of the pendulum, or Lightning type hulls and the other side. The Bessie Lee, with her workboat heritage, is hell-built-for-stout, and it would be interesting to compare the scantlings and related to a Lightning of similar size. The BL is an 18'4", and there is a Lightning 19 (as Bruce mentioned to me on another post).

I am just about finished doing my mold layouts, so there is no question about whether the Bessie Lee is going to be built. I am just interested in the theory of the hull design. Thanks all. More comments will be read with great interest.

[johnw]

The V bottom, according to Chappelle, allowed for a boat that carried more displacement and more beam than the flat-bottomed type. That's certainly true of the northern skipjack shown in American Small Sailing Craft. It does give you much slacker bilges, which is why Meerkat is a modification of that type. She has Veed bilges meeting a narrow, flat bottom, which produces a more easily driven hull with the chines out of the water when the boat is at rest, even with the crew aboard.

[jim_cricket]

Holzbt, Thanks for those photos. Is that your boat? She's a beaut. If you don't mind, I'd like to copy those pics to my bateau folder. Dave, I think most of us like the deadrise skiffs (what's not to like). I'm looking forward to your project!
Cricket

[jim_cricket]

By the way, I am going to have to figure out some kind of hybrid for that forefoot. I am going to build out of ply. Maybe file bottom for first 18" or so...?

I've thought about that issue myself, and would be inclined to cold mold the forefoot with layers of 3 or 4 mm ply laid diagonally, back to where the twist eases up, and join the flat panels to the forefoot with butt straps, or create a step in the layup and half lap the flat panel into the step.

[davebrown]

I am rethinking the plywood at this point. I think I can get around it and build all timber. My problem is the boat will live in godawful Sacramento in a garage, which is where the devil vacations when hell gets too chilly. It is miserable heat and it is compounded by driving here and there for two hours or a half day with a trailer, on ferociously hot asphalt, before getting the hull wet. Very hard on solid timber boats. Thus far I have all mold and stern patterns cut, my rolling carriage functional but not yet level, and I cut the 18 ft. mainmast today. The mainmast is smaller than the forward mast, on this build. I am definitely on my way now.

I do not think this will fall in the sail and oar category, as defined by McMullen and Co., though I won't be defiling the boat with an outboard.

[johnw]

If it's going to live on a trailer, I think plywood is a very good idea.

[davebrown]

John, this being my tenth boat, I think my jointery is good enough to build it solid timber. But--and I made the comment because I have ruminated on this on every other boat thus far--can a solid timber boat live in a garage, with the resulting changes in temperature and humidity, and either be reasonably dry or at minimum not pull itself apart? Maybe not. The temperature extremes that I am talking about are really huge, when you consider that in the summer, I might drive on a day with 110 on the thermometer, over asphalt that is probably in the 115-120 range, down to Sausalito where it is 62 degrees, and then into water that is low 50s. I suppose possible but not likely even high 40s. Additionally, the boat would dry itself to death...I'd have to put wet sacks in it a week before going out. My Coquina might have some issues too, after a few seasons, with a solid timber shoe and hog, and plywood garboard. So far none, but it has been in the water only since the end of June.

[johnw]

John, this being my tenth boat, I think my jointery is good enough to build it solid timber. But--and I made the comment because I have ruminated on this on every other boat thus far--can a solid timber boat live in a garage, with the resulting changes in temperature and humidity, and either be reasonably dry or at minimum not pull itself apart? Maybe not. The temperature extremes that I am talking about are really huge, when you consider that in the summer, I might drive on a day with 110 on the thermometer, over asphalt that is probably in the 115-120 range, down to Sausalito where it is 62 degrees, and then into water that is low 50s. I suppose possible but not likely even high 40s. Additionally, the boat would dry itself to death...I'd have to put wet sacks in it a week before going out. My Coquina might have some issues too, after a few seasons, with a solid timber shoe and hog, and plywood garboard. So far none, but it has been in the water only since the end of June.

I said what I did with complete faith in your joinery skills. If you build it tight enough not to leak after a spell in a hot, dry garage, as soon as it starts to soak up it will begin to slowly explode. That's what happens with an over-caulked boat. If you allow room for the planks to expand, when you launch it after a spell in that garage, you'll have a very large sieve. Unless you can keep it in the water, ply is the way to go. Lapstrake boats are better for a timber vessel that's to live out of the water.

[holzbt]

Here's a link to more photos of this boat. http://s90.photobucket.com/albums/k2...cpZZ1QQtppZZ16

This boat was built by and belongs to my friend Tom who also built the other crabbing skiff I've posted pic's of. It is traditionally built except for a cold molded bottom. This boat lives on a trailer. Feel free to post any other pictures from the album.

[davebrown]