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Thread: Banned garden

  1. #1
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    Default Banned garden



    Earlier this year, Josée Landry and Michel Beauchamp of Drummondville, Quebec planted this fabulous, edible front yard kitchen garden. In the name of codes, town officials say they have to rip up most of it. In the name of sanity, we say sign a petition. Goethe: "There is nothing worse than aggressive stupidity."
    - Common Dreams

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    Default Re: Banned garden

    As an avid vegetable gardener, I want to commiserate, its a beautiful garden. But it seems like a bit of a stunt. I'd like more information, like how big is their backyard, and why didn't they plant it there? How long have the codes or covenants been in place restricting gardens? What are their neighbors opinions?

    There's a reason that I live in Hell. . .
    Last edited by Paul Pless; 07-21-2012 at 10:18 AM.
    Simpler is better, except when complicated looks really cool.

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    Default Re: Banned garden

    That is bee u till full no doubt but to be the Devils advocate its hard to believe they did not know the town codes .

    They did not just plant a few things they went all in the towns face..

    Not that i do not think its great but i have gotten tickets for having my pick up truck on the street in a town with codes and rules..

    Probably these same people were the first to know the code and called the police.

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    Default Re: Banned garden

    "Bundinn er bátlaus maður" Bound is boatless man.

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    Default Re: Banned garden

    It will be interesting to note in this thread those that are for government regulation and those opposed.

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    Default Re: Banned garden

    The whole deal is weird and the news reports I could get from google leave a few things unclear. Like when did the town adopt the "no more than 30%" rule supposedly violated? How would a home owner know about what appears to be a new rule. The garden was in process for a long while so why no warning until it's all planted and done? And what about the dark murmuring that this is all a stealth central government plot? Could it be that Canadians have some of the same stupidities we have, eh?

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    Default Re: Banned garden

    it's all about people control... simple

    we all want to dictate to our neighbors
    The doctrine of nonresistance against arbitrary power, and oppression, is absurd, slavish, and destructive of the good and happiness of mankind.
    Personal failures are too important to be trusted to others.

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    Default Re: Banned garden

    Quote Originally Posted by Ian McColgin View Post
    ... And what about the dark murmuring that this is all a stealth central government plot?...
    What's more insipid are the dark murmurings that the gardeners knew the laws and did it just to get in the governments face. Asinine.

    Why is Gov't concerned with WHAT you plant as long as it's not harmful to pets or people and as long as it's well maintained.
    "I beseech you, in the bowels of Christ, think it possible that you may be mistaken." (stolen from TomF )

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    Default Re: Banned garden

    Quote Originally Posted by Phillip Allen View Post
    it's all about people control... simple

    we all want to dictate to our neighbors
    Quote Originally Posted by B_B View Post
    What's more insipid are the dark murmurings that the gardeners knew the laws and did it just to get in the governments face. Asinine.

    Why is Gov't concerned with WHAT you plant as long as it's not harmful to pets or people and as long as it's well maintained.
    I think its ******* idiotic. But let's be real, if you choose to live in a neighborhood, which these people have clearly chosen to do, then you bind yourself to live within the established covenants.
    Simpler is better, except when complicated looks really cool.

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    Default Re: Banned garden

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Pless View Post
    As an avid vegetable gardener, I want to commiserate, its a beautiful garden. But it seems like a bit of a stunt. I'd like more information, like how big is their backyard, and why didn't they plant it there?
    The front yard is sunny. The back yard is shaded. I suspect the front yard prolly has southern exposure as well.
    You would not enjoy Nietzsche, sir. He is fundamentally unsound. — P.G. Wodehouse (Carry On, Jeeves)

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    Default Re: Banned garden

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Pless View Post
    I think its ******* idiotic. But let's be real, - you bind yourself to live within the established covenants.
    Those "covenants" are probably lobbied into place by Safeway.

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    Default Re: Banned garden

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Pless View Post
    ...if you choose to live in a neighborhood, which these people have clearly chosen to do, then you bind yourself to live within the established covenants.
    There are some covenants which require changing. Just because something is, doesn't mean it ought to be.

    I knew a lady who planted her very small front yard with local wildflowers. City came in and made her rip it up and plant grass. Couple years later City decided grass was using too much water - encouraged the ripping up of lawn and planting local drought resistant plants and flower beds etc. It's life.
    "I beseech you, in the bowels of Christ, think it possible that you may be mistaken." (stolen from TomF )

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    Default Re: Banned garden

    To be fair, land use and maintenance standards are legitimate community issues. Property rights are not unlimited, as is obvious from our common acceptance (even among right wingers) of common zoning that distinguishes residential from industrial from agricultural from commercial zones. Even within a zone and within a general use, certain activities can imping on the peaceful enjoyment of your neighbors - like a home wind turbine may block a neighbor's view or glare from your solar array may blind the person across the street backing out of the garage or your well fenced dog run may resemble a commercial kennel if you have a small pack, and if you decide to keep a pony or build a boat . . . .

    There's also some room for the purely cosmetic. A well established method for combating neighborhood crime is to vigorously enforce yard and house standards, citing owners for unrepaired broken windows, unmowed grass, messy garbage cans, and all that. In Hyannis Port one third generation of a large local family deals all the time with complaints of bicycles and boats scattered all over their yard.

    It's not all just one way.

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    Default Re: Banned garden

    I'm just tired of people playing the victim card all the time. When Katherine and I bought our house I scheduled an appointment with the county inspector and sat down with him for about five minutes. He was more than happy to meet with me. I made sure that I could tear down a couple of barns that were on the property and move them to another location and rebuild them. I made sure that I could garden and even farm on the property. I made sure I could have dogs, horses, chickens, turkeys and game birds. I made sure I could have a large boat or two and an RV and a semi on the property. I made sure that I could have a greenhouse. There were other pieces of property that Katherine and were interested in before this one - most of them were disqualified by us because of covenants or other restrictions.
    Simpler is better, except when complicated looks really cool.

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    Default Re: Banned garden

    Fine Paul, but how do you handle change? Like a neighborhood where once horses were allowed but with increased density you get groundwater issues? Or what was a family chicken farm surrounded by residential growth that gets controlled by the industrial-chemical methods and blossoms from a few hundred layers into several thousand bakers raised on hormones in boxes and producing amazing levels of waste ? ? ? Your pre-purchase prudence is a good thing but does not cover all cases.

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    Default Re: Banned garden

    Quote Originally Posted by Ian McColgin View Post
    Fine Paul, but how do you handle change? Like a neighborhood where once horses were allowed but with increased density you get groundwater issues? Or what was a family chicken farm surrounded by residential growth that gets controlled by the industrial-chemical methods and blossoms from a few hundred layers into several thousand bakers raised on hormones in boxes and producing amazing levels of waste ? ? ? Your pre-purchase prudence is a good thing but does not cover all cases.

    I cannot imagine my neighbor's ideas of aesthetics runing my life in any way... the very nature of covenants are coersive
    The doctrine of nonresistance against arbitrary power, and oppression, is absurd, slavish, and destructive of the good and happiness of mankind.
    Personal failures are too important to be trusted to others.

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    Default Re: Banned garden

    Quote Originally Posted by B_B View Post
    What's more insipid are the dark murmurings that the gardeners knew the laws and did it just to get in the governments face. Asinine.

    Why is Gov't concerned with WHAT you plant as long as it's not harmful to pets or people and as long as it's well maintained.
    .

    My neighbor liked chickens..

    He had boats

    He built a house in a subdivision that had existing covenants saying no chickens or Boats parked in the yard.

    He proceeded to have 20 chickens and 2 boats parked in front.

    Now he signed off on the restrictions when he bought.

    The Landowner was in fits after complaints from ALL the other homeowners.

    He thumbed his nose till the town enforced the chicken rule.

    He had to build a garage to house the boats.

    Now I happen to like chickens and boats and never complained when he lived next to me and in fact liked stealing his eggs.

    But lets face it some people are on a crusade..

    Almost every town i lived in back east had all sorts of rules , Maybe silly rules to us but still not knowing is hard to believe.

    I could say i like gardening and plant 25 toilet bowels in front with daisy's and when confronted say well hey look at those people they got away with it.

    Perhaps my Toilet bowels with daisy's are just as nice to me as that garden.

  18. #18
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    Default Re: Banned garden

    Toilet bowls are 'found art.'

    There are plenty of places where you have six or more single family homes per acre and the issues of property management really are everyone's.

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    Default Re: Banned garden

    Government entities often have no choice but to set out rigid rules so they have a defence agains't outliers and attention seekers who don't want to conform. If there are no rules or the rules are too vague the rule makers can be assured they will be dragged into court by every outlier who wants to have his way.
    Living at close quarters with others who may not be in your social circle takes accomodations by everyone involved.
    In the case of this vegitable garden it may look nice but it also may be snipping value from neighboring homes because prospective buyers may be put off the unusual conversion of that one front yard.

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    Default Re: Banned garden

    Quote Originally Posted by Ian McColgin View Post


    Earlier this year, Josée Landry and Michel Beauchamp of Drummondville, Quebec planted this fabulous, edible front yard kitchen garden. In the name of codes, town officials say they have to rip up most of it. In the name of sanity, we say sign a petition. Goethe: "There is nothing worse than aggressive stupidity."
    - Common Dreams
    I think Goethe is absolutely right when he states that: "There is nothing worse than aggressive stupidity."

    He might have specified "Local Government stupidity"

    Geebus after having read this I'm going to quit my six millimeter hair cut, gonne grow a serious ponytail and start the protest movement against stupid governement all over again.

    PEACE FOR EVERYBODY!!!

    Makes the hippy V sign.
    And Ow darn I stopped smoking so I can't even forget the bad vibes I got from this STUPID thing by roling and smoking a joint.

    Edit again,
    Dudes you got to agree that this is the coolest front yard yuo've evr seen in your entire life. I mean growing veggies in your front garden.
    You do hat you beyond cool!

    Hey you front garden veggies growing people don't let anyone get you down.
    Last edited by beernd; 07-21-2012 at 12:18 PM. Reason: stopped smokers frustration
    Don't worry I'm happy

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    Justice is sometimes harder to achieve."

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    Default Re: Banned garden

    Quote Originally Posted by Ian McColgin View Post
    Toilet bowls are 'found art.'

    There are plenty of places where you have six or more single family homes per acre and the issues of property management really are everyone's.
    .

    I worked on Apartment complex's and if a renter so much as leaves a 2by 4 on the ground they are written up right away..

    They all sign off when they rent.

    One 2by 4 left on the ground would be a junk yard in a week.

    Now Again these people have the nicest garden i have seen..

    I myself would not complain if i lived next door.

    But who knows if they are on a crusade using a "good cause" as their tool...

    If they went to all the trouble of taking pics from start to finish its hard to believe they could not pick up the phone and ask the town.

  22. #22
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    Default Re: Banned garden

    Obvious stunt, the homes close by have lost value because not many would not want these crazy neighbors. Other than that, it's a beautiful garden in the fresh green state. I could go into Gardena's grocery and buy those vegies for less money than they spent and not have to hoe weeds. Lets see a picture of this garden in winter. Was it publicity they were growing. They have our attention, now what? You think they can beat city hall. Good luck. Sign a petition?, yeah, then get sued by the neighbors. Put that home next door up for sale and see what the offers are.




  23. #23
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    Default Re: Banned garden

    I think the garden looks too overdone. He could have incorporated it better and more naturally and cleverly to where the veggies had ornamental appeal. Square plots and all those boxes end up looking junky and cluttered.

    As much as I hate ordinances and skirt the outer limits of, I would still opt to perhaps picket fence my yard, landscape it aesthetically and sneak in my veggies in and around.

    To my eye, the houses are rather ugly to start with, and that particular garden layout only draws attention to this fact.

  24. #24
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    Default Re: Banned garden

    It's worth distinguishing between covenants and laws. Covenants are private agreements recorded on the deed which are enforced by civil law. Laws are passed by cities (via ordinance) and become part of city codes.

    If you are in violation of a covenant, an association or neighbors might sue you, but it doesn't involve the local municipality. You can come to whatever agreement you want with the neighbors - you can even offer them compensation [bribe] to allow you to do what you want in breach of the covenants.

    If you are in violation of city codes, the association or neighbors have to complain to the city and the city has some discretion on how actively they want to push code enforcement. You can also push to change the City code and it's a political decision.

    FWIW, I've lived in a house with a range of covenants, many of them offensive, unenforceable or illegal now (no "coloreds"). In fact, the dissolution of the homeowners association basically invalidated the covenants over time. We recently bought a house that has more recent covenants, but they are honored mostly in the breach.

    My observation is that some (many?) people like to have a lot of rules. It makes them feel comfortable to know that their neighbors can't paint their house with any colors other than earth tones, can't build fences, are required to have a certain type of roof shingle, etc. If you're NOT one of the folks, stay as far away from them as possible and don't buy a house with active covenants or live in a town with rule-based busybodies. You can probably tell that I'm not so much a "rules" person...

  25. #25
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    Default Re: Banned garden

    Quote Originally Posted by pipefitter View Post
    I think the garden looks too overdone. He could have incorporated it better and more naturally and cleverly to where the veggies had ornamental appeal. Square plots and all those boxes end up looking junky and cluttered.

    As much as I hate ordinances and skirt the outer limits of, I would still opt to perhaps picket fence my yard, landscape it aesthetically and sneak in my veggies in and around.

    To my eye, the houses are rather ugly to start with, and that particular garden layout only draws attention to this fact.
    I agree with pefjr's and your comments on the garden. As far as the gardeners' motivation (and what degree of peripheral enjoyment they're getting from the dispute itself), who's to say? The problem is, according to local stories, the municipal code, which limits front yard gardens to 30% of area. What do you want to bet that the "gardened" area, inclosed within board perimeters, is almost exactly 30% of the "front yard"?

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    Default Re: Banned garden

    Quote Originally Posted by Horace View Post
    I agree with pefjr's and your comments on the garden. As far as the gardeners' motivation (and what degree of peripheral enjoyment they're getting from the dispute itself), who's to say? The problem is, according to local stories, the municipal code, which limits front yard gardens to 30% of area. What do you want to bet that the "gardened" area, inclosed within board perimeters, is almost exactly 30% of the "front yard"?


    that thought occured to me as well
    The doctrine of nonresistance against arbitrary power, and oppression, is absurd, slavish, and destructive of the good and happiness of mankind.
    Personal failures are too important to be trusted to others.

  27. #27
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    Default Re: Banned garden

    Looks great in the above pics and the video, but now? The city isn't demand that they remove it all, just the portion that would conform with the 30% law.



    Drummondville couple fights to keep vegetable garden - Montreal - CBC News
    "Bundinn er bátlaus maður" Bound is boatless man.

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    Default Re: Banned garden

    Still lookin' great
    Reminds me of a British TV show from a few decades ago, the goode life. Always liked that show.

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    Default Re: Banned garden

    Laws are put in place for a reason. It's because a few people refuse to be reasonable.
    A well tended garden is fine, but the same garden tended by less thoughtful owners would look like Hell (sorry Paul, not that Hell), decreasing the property values in the neighbourhood.
    We would have a whole lot fewer laws if our civilization if we would just act civilized.
    Last edited by S/V Laura Ellen; 07-21-2012 at 05:32 PM.
    Allan of the Grove
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    Default Re: Banned garden

    Since that place is rather far north I'll bet it looks kind of forlorn during the 8-9 months when all that stuff is out of season.

  31. #31
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    Default Re: Banned garden

    Georgia actually adopted a "right to farm" statute. Basically prohibiting any farm, food processing plant rendering plant etc. from being declared a nuisance if it had been in place for a year and was compliant with the local zoning and codes when it was established.

    In North Georgia we had a lot of people wanting to move to the country, or have second homes in the mountains who did not seem to understand that the cattle farm next door might have certain odor that they did not like. Since Georgia is one of the largest poultry producing states we have a lot of chicken houses. Chicken houses in the winter are not bad, chicken houses in the middle of the summer are awful. Want to guess when a lot of the aggressive marketing of second homes took place?

  32. #32
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    Default Re: Banned garden

    Any one else been to the gardens at the fort in Annapolis Royale in the Nova Scotia? gardens of flowers, which were the mature product of vegetable plants. Unless there is an "acceptable list" of front yard plantings in this modest-looking burg, established and part of a covenant that conveyed at time of purchase, there is nothing to talk about. I do not endorse suing over trivialities, but I would ( I am aware that in this case my opinion was not sought) not rip it out.

  33. #33
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    Default Re: Banned garden

    Hell my neighbor would have mown that down and weedeat around evrything in that yard before it ever got that high. I am not talkin about his yard, I am talkin about on either side of him and across the street.
    "para todo mal, mezcal, y para todo bien también" (for everything bad, mezcal, and for everything good, as well.)

  34. #34
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    Default Re: Banned garden

    I'd be interested to know where the road allowance(town property) stops and the private property starts.
    Often there is 15 -20 feet of town property between the "traveled portion" of the road and private property, where the road allowances are 66 feet.
    R
    Sleep with one eye open.

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    Default Re: Banned garden

    Novelle Union

    Drummondville allows front gardens with frame

    Posted August 14, 2012

    New regulations coming

    City Council Drummondville announced in a public meeting yesterday, a new regulation will meet the demands of front gardens in residential areas.

    "It will now be allowed to Drummondville this type of garden in the front yard. However, this practice should be coaching, "announced Mayor, Francine Ruest Jutras.

    The new regulations will be tabled in early March 2013 or earlier if possible. To do this, consult the City including some existing regulations and take account of information on good practices garden. The Mayor has invited Mr. Beauchamp to collaborate in the process. "The City believes that this regulation will eventually inspire other municipalities in Quebec," says Ruest Jutras. She took the opportunity to advise the couple Landry Beauchamp they will finish the season as qu'amorcée.

    New community gardens

    The City is already available to different sectors of the population of the territory for community gardens. These four gardens allow those who wish to grow their own vegetables and is also an interesting place to socialize. The Board has therefore precede the identification of new areas to implement this type of installation.


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