Can I use my boat in Salt water ?

[cckl]

Help !?
The wooden Enterprise I'm trying to work on on seems to be put together with Brass screws.
As such, should I be able to put it in Salt water ?

I have heard conflicting opinions re brass/ bronze debate. I don't want to destroy the boat by corroding all its screws, would that happen for sure in salt water ?

I'm confused because its seems strange that the boat would have been built exclusively for fresh water.

I don't think replacing all screws with bronze is an option, and it seems unwise to add a few bronze screws to the mix, as mixed metals may react.

It was built in Philadelphia a long time ago, I picked it up from someone who had been using it on lakes in NY State. I don't know if it has ever been in salt water. I was hoping to use it in and around the Chesapeake.


Any thoughts or experience with this ?

[Thad]

My thought: If there is any iron in the boat and she is left in the water for extended periods of time, the brass will lose zinc and thus strength. If there is no iron or you are just putting her in for times of use, damage to fasteners will be none or insignificant.

[Peerie Maa]

I would expect it to have been glued together, with the screws holding the glue joint until it cured. Pull a couple of screws to see if they are OK. Salt or fresh will make little difference to dezincification, which can occur in household plumbing fittings.

[pcford]

brass was commonly used before the development of marine fastener alloys. (also mixed fasteners were common) Not the best but the boat would probably be safe for short term salt water use.

[cckl]

Thad - No Iron that I can think of or have yet noted is in the boat.
The boat lives on its trailer.
I would like to be able to keep it in water over a weekend, and take it out during the week, ( probably apx 5 x year ) not sure if that counts as keeping it in the water or not

Peerie, I get your point re: glued not screwed. That is encouraging. However, if the brass were to corrode completely, I would think it would compromise the boat -

Assuming I go ahead and use it in salt water, should I make sure that any/all screw heads are covered with Varnish ? or resin ?

[hokiefan]

A boat was built to be used. It also needs maintenance. Use your boat, stay on top of maintenance, keep the paint in good shape. Over the years you will replace stuff. Get it back together and go use it. Have fun.

Cheers,

Bobby

[MiddleAgesMan]

If the glue fails the fasteners will be subjected to point loading and will work loose. If none of your fasteners are loose the glue (epoxy? resorcinol?) is still doing its job even after all these years.

The usage you describe should not do any significant damage to brass, IMO.

[pcford]

By the way...I've seen a speedboat that was iron (not galvy) fastened...and by a good local builder. A grandy triple.

[Jay Greer]

How do you know that the screws are actually brass? Have you pulled one and checked the color and condition of the threads. I have actually seen boats that were brass fastened and used only in fresh water loose the holding power of the brass screws just from age and use. If your fastenings look good, don't worry. But, if the threads are pink and or they break upon removal then you are due for refastening anyway.
Jay

[Roger Cumming]

I was just about to recommend that you remove a few screws and verify that they are brass so that you know what you have. But Jay above (#9) already said it.

[Bob Adams]

A boat was built to be used. It also needs maintenance. Use your boat, stay on top of maintenance, keep the paint in good shape. Over the years you will replace stuff. Get it back together and go use it. Have fun.

Cheers,

Bobby

Exactly.

[ILikeRust]

One issue is to be sure we're defining terms - "brass" versus "bronze" is one of those tricky things, because there are different types of brass and there are different types of bronze, and in some cases, the chemical makeup of the alloys can be extremely similar - or in fact, the same, such that the same alloy has different names, depending on who you're talking to.

In particular, a short while back, I did a little research to find a "bronze" pipe for the centerboard pennant on my boat, and learned that "red brass", in America, anyhow, is another name for "gunmetal", and is considered to be both a brass and a bronze. It typically contains 85% copper, 5% tin, 5% lead, and 5% zinc, and thus is sometimes referrred to as "85-5-5-5" brass (or bronze). Based on the research I did, I concluded it was acceptable for use in my application - and I found it darn near impossible to find pipe anywhere that was made of "bronze" - although I did find pipe made of "red brass", which expressly was described as being of 85-5-5-5 content and corrosion-resistant.

[John Meachen]

I would agree with post #3.The boat will be held together with glue and while you would be unwise if you expected it to suffer no deterioration whatsoever over a long time,it should be fine.I know of a fifty year old Enterprise that is held together with much less durable screws.The occasional overnight spell in water is not too likely to allow much water to reach the screws if the paint is in reasonable order.

[Richard Smith]

I'm going to be the kill-joy on this issue. Ive spent a good amount of time boating in both fresh and salt water. I grew up boating in salt water. I currently boat only in fresh water. Compared to salt, fresh water trailor-boating maintenance is easy. (Keeping a boat moored in fresh water is another discussion.) Salt water has residual effects in the cracks and crannys of everything - including your motor (if any) and trailer. Its a PITA! For the limited amount of time you would be using the boat in salt water you are going to be dealing with residual salt issues for quite some time after you are back in fresh. You WILL notice the effects. If you feel the enjoyment of using the boat in salt is worth it, use and enjoy. Personally, I avoid it and simply rent a boat. If you do choose to boat in salt, I HIGHLY recommend use of Salt Away BEFORE and after - on you boat, motor and trailer. It does what they say: http://www.saltawayproducts.com/ApplicationsPage.htm

[Greg Nolan]

Over at the forums of the Wooden Canoe Heritage Association -- http://forums.wcha.org/forum.php -- there are a number of discussions of dezincifaction of brass on wood/canvas canoes used in salt water (search "bloom" and "dezincification"). On such canoes (where steel or iron is usually not present) the loss of zinc sometimes necessitates the refastening of most of the hull (many hundreds of tacks) in the worst cases, where the canoe has been used over a long time in salt water, and often results in a cosmetic problem -- a white bloom in the wood around the tack head and clenched end, where the use of the canoe in salt water has not been extensive.

I have seen brass turn pink -- a sign that zinc has been removed -- simply from some metal polishes. I would not rely on brass fittings for structural strength in any hull used in salt water.

And yes, it is very common for small boats to be built with a view to using them only in fresh water. In the past, it was the unusual boat built inland for use on inland lakes and waters that ended up being used extensively in salt water. Our modern mobile society has made such changed use more common, and traditional local boat builders often have not recognized the need to build for different environments.

[cckl]

helpful comments all around. many thanks.
I think we're going to try and go ahead with the limited saltwater use.
If there were to be No saltwater use at all whatsover, it would be a deal breaker, however with proper attention it seems feasible. The screws are indeed brass, they all seen in good shape, I've yet to encounter any stripped holes or screws.

[John Meachen]

In the heyday of the British plywood dinghy boom,when boats like the Enterprise were built in their hundreds each year,it was not uncommon for the really keen weight savers to fix the plywood with steel screws and then to remove the screws and rely on the glue to keep the boat together.