Considering SOF double paddle canoe or kayak, opinions?

[Canuck Bob]

I'm deciding on picking a SOF design or two for building with my girls, 8 and 10. I started convinced on a Blandford Kayak for them. The different solo 14 foot designs with beams around 24 to 26 inches seemed ok. And maybe a larger one for me. I am always drawn to classic designs and old technology. I have a stripper Prospector for fun paddling as a team.

Well searching here has me wondering about the double paddle canoe or decked canoe. Some of the Geodesic designs are sure beautiful and with 8 ounce polyester fabric sturdy enough for our purposes. These are for family day trips on big western Canadian rivers, no whitewater, and prairie and mountain lakes. The biggest concern is wind. It can blow-up hard and fast here.

My question is not so much about a specific design but to understand folks experience with rec kayaks or the traditional double paddle boat like a Rob Roy? My only experience with a double paddle was a tandem Folbot I rebuilt. It was stable, big and wide, and really heavy!

Would youngsters find the rec kayak a better choice than a small DP canoe? How do folks like the double paddle canoes like a Rob Roy or a Herreshoff design? Would you see any safety concerns with these choices?

[smallyachtsailor]

I have and or have tried most of the boats you've mentioned. I know that for windy, large lakes (and larger open rivers) I much prefer sea kayaks or rec kayaks because of their lower windage. They're much easier to paddle in the wind. My sea kayaks all have adjustable skegs so you never have to paddle harder on one side or the other because of a crosswind. Shorter boats often don't have a problem with wind-vaning, depending on the design. There's nothing like trying them out in some wind to tell. Most Rob Roys and similar double-paddle canoes tend to be intermediate in windage between true sea kayaks and traditional canoes. Of course these vary a lot in terms of windage depending on the height of their rails above water. More traditional canoes are the hardest to handle in the wind because of their high sides. I'll always remember one trip down a river in the Adirondacks with a friend in my canoe--the Osgood River. The trip was longer (winding meanders and beaver dams) than we expected, and ended on Osgood Lake. We could see our car in the lot across the lake--directly upwind. It seemed to take forever to get that canoe upwind--if we stopped paddling for an instant we started backing up. Long ago I sold my last traditional American canoe and I switched to a double paddle. We use our sea kayaks the most, and switch to our 12-foot double-paddle (solo) canoes for small twisty rivers that the kayaks are too long for. I also like the little open canoes because I can just drop all my gear in them without bothering with hatches or deck straps, and you can reach all of it from in the boat.

Another consideration is chop. The short, steep waves on shallow, windy lakes are irksome, and if you go with an open canoe that has low sides to alleviate the wind problem...enough said. A more round-bottomed boat would also handle the chop much better than any flat-bottomed rec kayak or canoe.

Your mention of an old Folbot is interesting. A friend of mine started kayaking with us in his old naugahide-covered folbot. Fortunately he is a powerful paddler, otherwise he'd never have kept up. That thing went through waves rather than over them.

It sounds to me like a small decked boat (rec kayak or Rob Roy) would suit your purpose. If you're drawn to classic designs go with a decked double-paddle canoe with low freeboard.

Good luck to you in finding a design you like.

[Canuck Bob]

Thanks, SYSailor,

I paddle my 16'Prospector solo and it is a real bear in the wind when light. It settles down well with a weeks tripping packs aboard.

It does seem that a Blandford design or two is the best option for a quick build boat. I now realize I like the fuselage SOF designs and have gotten much from Gentry and Kudzu. To my eye the bent frame style would look best for an open boat. I think local canvas, sawn frames, and Lowe's Boat Supply or Home Depot Chandlers is right for a project that I won't drive the girls crazy with my nit picking. So for the girls probably a mid sized SOF kayak. They will use back ferry for the big rivers and paddling mountain lakes is a very special treat. A low rocker design seems best now.

For me that is a different story. I'm big, 6,2" and 240#s, and clumsy due to arthritis and health concerns. My Folbot was a ton of fun on northern lakes for fishing but it didn't turn like my prospector!. The 15 Chukanut or Kudzu Ravenwood with a big Blandford style opening might be more appropriate.

I'm just starting to consider my role as the rescue and supervisory guy. Maybe a low power skiff might be a consideration, opinions?

[James McMullen]

I like kayaks better, but my dad likes canoes better. Perhaps you need to build a couple of each and do some experiments yourself? With skin-on-frame, that's not much of an investment in money for an enormous amount of pleasure gained.

[Cuyahoga Chuck]

I would think a kayak woud be more suitable because the low silhoette makes it easier to reach the water. For a modest sized person paddling with your elbows in the air because you have to reach over a gunnal doesn't seem like a lot of fun.
On my double paddle canoe I had to go to a longer paddle because the short paddle dribbled a lot of water in my lap.

[Wooden Boat Fittings]

I've been paddling a PBK27 for over fifty years now, having built one as a teenager, and I've never thought of anything else -- other than a larger version for paddling two-up, but which I never built.

The single is 13' overall, with a 27" beam. The double is PBK64 and is 17' overall, but I can't remember the beam -- 32" perhaps?

My double paddle is split, with sliding-fit brass sleeves to join the two halves. It's feathered of course, and a screw-head locating in a notch in the outer sleeve at the joint ensures that the feathering angle is correct when the two halves are assembled. It's occasionally handy to be able to pull it apart so you can use one half only, like a Canadian paddle, in a waterway where there's just enough room for the boat. The length of the present paddle is around 8' from memory, although the original was 8'-8". (I could always go out and measure it, I guess.) Drips from the blades are controlled by rubber rings fitted to the shaft outboard of the coaming, one at each end.

Blandford also designed a full set of accessories for his boats, and in due course I provided Kareela with a trolley, spray cover, complete sailing rig including leeboards, and a foot-operated lifting rudder -- all of which can be stowed under the deck when not in use, and all of which (except the rudder) can be set up or handed from a seated position while at sea.

I note that you've found the Aussie Woodwork Forums thread where there's quite a lot of information about Blandford kayaks. Regrettably I can't get Guy's construction file (mentioned in Post #12) to load, but it's well worthwhile viewing, so it might pay you to email him for details.

To complete the answer to your question, I've not had much experience with Canadian (ie open) canoes, but the kayak has given me so much satisfaction -- in creek, river, lake, and ocean -- that I've never considered trying anything else.

Mike

[Canuck Bob]

Thanks to everyone. I will be picking a rec design kayak for the girls tailored for windy open water with a touch of rocker1" or less. For the summer we will mess about in the prospector and consider designs. Knowledgeable folks here and elsewhere have warned about boats that will be too big for my girls. I'm sneaking up on 60 but our young daughters were adopted from China. We don't think they will ever be very big so a boat that we can build together that will work for up to 150#s max with a small load would be plenty.

I also think I'll pick an open lake mission for the boats instead of trying to too broad a mission. I'm still thinking 14' and 24-26"s, opinions?

If I choose a rockered boat but add a keel does this make a decent open water boat?

The (P)BK15 ,advertised as the fast touring 15', at 14'6" and 26" beam seems like an option on Clark Craft's page http://www.clarkcraft.com/cgi-local/...item=934917754
The BK62, racing 14, is 13'6" and 24" beam.
The BK26, whitewater 14, is 14" and 26" beam. Reports suggest it has ample rocker so a keel might work here.
A buddy has offered a small gas canoe kicker for my Prospector as a rescue boat so my old friend and I will keep an eye on the girls and towing will be possible.

[Canoez]

I like kayaks better, but my dad likes canoes better. Perhaps you need to build a couple of each and do some experiments yourself? With skin-on-frame, that's not much of an investment in money for an enormous amount of pleasure gained.

Who says you can't have the best of both worlds and have a double-paddle canoe? (Just playin' Devil's Advocate here... )

[smallyachtsailor]

Small sea kayaks make sense. IMO you should look for a good round-bottomed or at least a shallow V-bottomed hard-chine design--it will handle the chop better. My rule of thumb is...flat bottoms for flat water, round bottoms for...well, round (err, non-flat) water. At 14 feet it'll give them a decent maximum speed once they're older better paddlers, without being too much for them while they're younger. One inch of rocker should be enough as long as the boat's shape is otherwise designed to be seaworthy (not all kayaks are, certainly many rec kayaks in particular are not good in chop). A common fault of rec kayaks, and some sea kayaks, is that their bottom panels stay too flat near the bow, which results in pounding and poor rough water performance.

With only one inch of rocker they should still track well enough. Personally I prefer boats that turn easily, with an adjustable skeg for downwind, downwave (surfing) conditions. It's easy enough to learn to paddle straight--and you can always drop the skeg an inch or two if you want better tracking ability--gives you the best of both worlds. And at 14 feet, they'll be just long enough that you need to be concerned about them weathervaning in a wind. Some boats balance well in this respect, some need help with an adjustable skeg.

A rescue boat is a great idea. We take our sea kayaks up to Acadia (Maine) regularly, and although we're careful and take no risks, I think I'd feel safer still if we had one person in some type of rescue boat. That Down East water is mighty cold.

[Canuck Bob]

First I've heard of an adjustable skeg, appropriate for SOF?

I have a fair amount of experience with open canoes. The traditional ones with a fine entry, rounder bottom and a little rocker sure handle chop better than the plastic barges made for crashing rocks Ive tried.

Your idea of both boats is appealing but too much for now. Mike's pictures have me convinced that a SOF kayak would also be best for me someday.

The rescue canoe is shaping up as a good idea. Almost everything here is fed from the mountain snow pack melt.

[Canuck Bob]

Well as luck would have it my stored books revealed a copy of Wood and Canvas Kayak Building by Putz. I was looking for a Blandford book I hoped I had and realized it was EASI-BUILD series on How to Build a Kayak by Brann. I do not recall getting it but it has a 1978 date. It includes full directions and the original full-size pattern in great shape. The book plans are set-up to build 3 lengths of boat with 14'3" and a medium V hull with fine entry and about 22" beam. A detailed measurement to follow. The second length is 16'9". It features a gently curved deck with a large rectangular cockpit.

[Canuck Bob]

Here are some hull measurements. All of them are to the canvas line. length 14'3", beam 24", deadrise amidship 1 3/4", gunwale height amidship 9 1/2", waterline beam at deadrise 21 1/2", stem height 11". The hull has a fine entry and is symmetrical.

I'm questioning if it might be a little tall for my small girls? Would a drop of 1" amidship and 2" at the stem ruin anything or improve them?

[Ron Williamson]

Perfection is an impossible goal,because the kids are still growing.
My kids don't seem to care about the the finer points of design,unless they happen to be in the slow boat or the ugly coloured one.
I've found that trimming with a bit of ballast or a seat adjustment is often as effective as a skeg when trying to make handling easier.
This is especially true in variable conditions with different paddlers.
It wouldn't hurt to take in a paddling store demo day, where you and the kids can get in twenty boats of varying size and design.
R

[P.I. Stazzer-Newt]

An eight year old will be swamped by a PBK - my school had a few of the these built to 12 foot long and used by eleven to fourteen year olds on upland lochans.

I'd be looking for something better suited in size - and/or talking nicely to Dave Gentry...

http://gentrycustomboats.com/Kidyak%20page.html

[Canuck Bob]

I have come to a new conclusion. I'm going to outfit my Prospector into a lake canoe. My tripping and fast water days are long gone. This excercise helped me to see that with mods my canoe can take the whole family safely on any water I would paddle with them. I don't have to mess with an outboard rescue boat, I hate the noisy things and when analyzed battery powered electrics are no more green. Nobody ever includes the horribly toxic batteries (you watch as the auto batteries need replacing soon, I worry we have another asbestos tragedy looming) and apparently electricity comes from electricity trees.

The main reason as I considered the cultural implications woke me up. From my neck of the woods every Canadian kid once was handy with a proper paddle, a .22, ax, fishing string and a couple hooks, carried a pocket knife, and a matches safe in the bush.

These SOF kayaks also have deep roots in the Canadian north, my name for the generic greenland style is Baffin Kayaks, hope I'm reasonably correct! We will build them when they are ready to head out with each other and solo. As a kid I loved paddling away for the day as a father I dread the idea of my kids doing it.