New to me Beetle Cat

[samclem]

After a lengthy drive, including a lovely visit with a WA State Trooper who decided I needed to help contribute my part to ensure our budget remains balanced I have the following in my drive way. This is older hull but it's good shape given the age, I think I have the original sail (which might be cotton, need to investigate) and all the hardware, rigging. The spars are in good shape but need a complete sanding and refinishing, as does most of the boat.

It needs new rails all the way around before it can be sailed, everything else should be serviceable for this summer. The originals were oak, and I think steamed to make the curve would I be correct? Also, since it's above the waterline silicon bronze screws should be fine even thought he rest of the hull is likely iron?

First we have the cat on the catboat , as our fierce barn cat decided the deck was a lovely place for a nap. (Truth be told he's not fierce at all and spends his day sleeping and eating not killing the mice in the barn...)

[Bob Cleek]

The Beetle Cat is a lovely boat and you seem to have quite a find there. However, your comments betray that you don't have the experience and knowlege necessary to properly assess the condition or needed care of your boat. (Ask your wife whether the sail is cotton or dacron. She'll know.) That's nothing to feel bad about. Experience begins when you start. You just don't want to make any irreversible mistakes. You should contact the Beetle Co. in Wareham, MA and obtain their advice. http://beetlecat.com/store/scripts/default.asp They should be able to give you any information you need on repairing and maintaining your Beetle Cat and, if there is any identifying marks on her, they should be able to give you something about her history. They have a complete inventory of replacement parts, should anything be missing. (They sell a pre-bent set of rub rails for $120, which is quite a bargain when you consider what paying a yard to replace them from scratch might run.) You will likely find the New England Beetle Cat Association a worthwhile resource. http://www.beetlecat.org/ They have a section on their website addressing the construction and care of the boats.

You would also be well advised to find somebody nearby who knows about these boats. The Wooden Boat Center folks up in Port Townsend, WA should be able to give you a lead. You need to find an experienced wooden boat restorer (Pat Ford in this forum is in Seattle, IIRC) who can advise you. There are issues apparent from the pictures you've posted. The boat's hull is not fair. This may be the result of improper sanding by previous owners or an indication of plank fastening problems, but the pictures posted, as far as they go, suggest the former. (Or, God forbid, somebody has covered the hull with resin and glass cloth to "cure" plank movement due to fastenings letting go!) The blackened staining around the screws on the oak coaming is also of concern. It may indicate iron fastenings have begun to rust and that the structure may be "iron sick," a deterioration caused by the interaction of tannic acids in the oak and ferrous fasteners. Beetle Cats built today are are all silicon bronze fastened, although I've seen pictures of iron fastened examples. It looks from the photo that "something iron" is going on there and perhaps your boat is iron fastened. You will have to "dance with the girl ya brought" as far as fastenings go, or swap out all the iron for bronze.

BTW, don't "sand" to remove the finish on the spars, etc. Major coating removal is far better done with a heat gun and sharp scraper. Sanding is only for final finish preparation. From the photos, it looks as if somebody who didn't know what they were doing took an overly aggressive disk sander to her topsides.

None of these are "terminal" problems, but improper refinishing and repairs will add nothing to the value of the boat and perhaps seriously reduce the value irreversibly. (This is known as the "Antiques Roadshow Factor.:" "It's worth $10,000, but if you hadn't refinished it, it would have been worth $100,000.") A new Beetle Cat, fully found, without trailer, lists for $17,000 these days.

I'm not trying to rain on your parade here. There's always that glow when a new boat is acquired, and then reality rears its ugly head. I'm just trying to get you started off in the right direction. A Beetle Cat is a great little boat and every one of them deserves loving, and proper, care. When you have specific questions, I am sure you will get a lot of good answers in here (and probably a lot of bunk, but that's all part of the fun.)


Your mission, should you accept it, is to go from this:



(Obviously iron fastened, evidenced by the "bleeders" on the topsides)

to this:

[skaraborgcraft]

Is it healthy to have an obsession about re-sale value?

[Bob Cleek]

Is it healthy to have an obsession about re-sale value?

There's no point in making resale value the sole measure, since it's a rare boat that ever increases in value, especially in this economy, but I know of no better measure of whether a boat's been properly restored and maintained. The market decides the quality of the boat.

[skaraborgcraft]

Surely the market decides the value.....the quality is what it is,and its only worth what someone is prepared to pay for it. Its a depressed market at present in Sweden, and most wooden boats requiring any kind of restoration are currently going for peanuts.....or just above scrap value. Even boats that had good a good market,and were in fine condition have seen prices drop dramatically,but thats just a sign of the times. At the end of the day,good or bad, the market decides value,and from that,you can make an informed decision of whether a certain boat is worth putting money into,IF your only concern is re-sale value. Personally i buy what i like and use it,and how much it gets used,and how much enjoyment i get from it, is how i value it......not by from how much i can sell it for when im finished with it. Horses for courses and each to their own, but my experience with people who tend to only look at re-sale down the line,never seem to enjoy the moment,but thats a personel observation.

Nice wee boat. Whatever you decide to do restoration wise,enjoy it. Cheers

[boatkid]

I noticed in your post you didn't mention resale value, unless I missed that part, in your post?
None-the-less, awesome find ! Sorry to hear about the ordeal from the police, but I guess that's just part and parcel for our times. Again, awesome find.

[CrosbyStriper]

Any Idea of her Hull number? It should be either stamped on an oval brass plate at the forward edge of the coamings, or if the plate is missing, which they often are, check the stern post, if it hasn't been replaced, the number should be stamped there. Might take some sanding to reveal the number though.

I cant tell you how many times I have sanded a stern post to be able to tell someone their boat's hull number!

[Bob Cleek]

Any Idea of her Hull number? It should be either stamped on an oval brass plate at the forward edge of the coamings, or if the plate is missing, which they often are, check the stern post, if it hasn't been replaced, the number should be stamped there. Might take some sanding to reveal the number though.

I cant tell you how many times I have sanded a stern post to be able to tell someone their boat's hull number!

The sail number may also provide a good clue.

[Rich Jones]

I also wondered if the hull had been covered in glass. That, too, can be removed with heat.
It looks like a nice find on a stable trailer. I wonder why the rudder is a differnent paint scheme from the hull?
Keep us up to date.

[Jay Greer]

First, I too offer my congratulations to you for your rare find! Although I am both a builder and designer of wooden boats, I am not seeking more work at this time. However, I am located in Port Townsend which is very close to you. I would like to volunteer my services to you, free of charge, to survey the boat and recommend a plan for repairs which, you may or may not wish to follow. My sole purpose is to prevent you from doing unneccesary work and to get you out sailing as soon as possible.
If this idea is of interest to you, contact me privatly for getting set up for a meeting.
Fair Winds,
Jay Greer
Common Sense Boat & Tool Co. Inc.

[samclem]

Bob thanks for your insight and it's true most of my wooden boat experience is glue lap but I don't really like epoxy that much. You are right the hull being unfair has a kink on the port side, about amidships where a frame is broken and has been for at least 1 coat of paint. there yes, the previous owner glassed the hull - a winter project to remove after the 3 weeks of pacific northwest summer passes. Thanks for the tip on the heat gun for the spars, I'll try that out and I suspect it'll be more enjoyable than sanding. I also agree with you on the aggressive sanding and this winter I'll take a closer look at the planking I think at least 1 needs to be replaced when the goop is removed from the hull. I also have the original rails and coaming mouldings, but I think they've run their course.

As for the older sail, I know it's cotton I just don't know if this boat or not. I have a lump of cotton with hand sewn rings (looks to be luff but not 100% sure) with a distinct odor so while it airs out I'm not going to claim what it is. The sails were crammed in a bag with 2 others one of which was a Bermudan, and clearly not for this boat. It came with a reasonably okay Dacron sail, which needs repair and I'll attended to that next week.

And yes, the WBF in Port Townsend, and the NW Boat School are good folk, I know several of them who have done restorations on their boats. However, additional input and opinions are often useful there is almost always more than one way to skin a cat.

It is hull number 457, built 1954-55, so I am sure it has iron fasteners, had to scrape (sanding wasn't enough) the stern post it does not have the bronze plate.

I understand you on resale but that's not my concern as I doubt I'll ever sell her as I've been looking for one within a reasonable distance for some time. I enjoy the building/restoration work and being an east coast transplant I am fond of catboats and it has value to me. However, the SeaRay in the backyard... now that I wouldn't be sad about selling.

I hope I can do it justice, and make it look like the picture Bob posted.

Sorry to hear about the ordeal from the police

No worries there, it happens but I did learn a valuable lesson, our speedometer is off by about 7mph, and here I just thought everyone was just slow .

[Tom Robb]

Samclem, in a flame cotton chars, dacron melts. You could test that on a loose thread if you wish. It also feels entirely different.
I'd jump at Jay's offer if it were me, and Cleek's advise is spot on. Beetle Cats are much loved and have a good market here in the US and are thus valuable (either to have or to sell) in spite of Scaraborgcraft's rather gloomy assessment.

[Rich Jones]

Make sure you wear a high quality respiratior when removing varnish/paint with a heat gun.

[J.Madison]

I would certainly take Jay Greer up on his offer and have his favorite beverage waiting when he arrived. He is one of the more knowledgeable people around here and could give you the input you need to have a really great boat.

[skaraborgcraft]

[QUOTE=Tom Robb;3475161]Samclem, in a flame cotton chars, dacron melts. You could test that on a loose thread if you wish. It also feels entirely different.
I'd jump at Jay's offer if it were me, and Cleek's advise is spot on. Beetle Cats are much loved and have a good market here in the US and are thus valuable (either to have or to sell) in spite of Scaraborgcraft's rather gloomy assessment.

Tom, my assessment is really not based on monetary value. It is true i mention a gloomy woodenboat market here in Sweden,but that was not meant to be taken as a comment that Samclems new boat isnt of any value. I only bought up re-sale value in response to Mr Cleeks post. As Samclem has said,he has no interest in re-sale value,and wants a boat to enjoy,and i think that is the healthy attitude. I am in no way an expert in the field of woodenboats,and i realise some boats have "historically" a percieved value,sometimes in excess of similar boats,the same is true in most places,Sweden is no exception, where you can often find old Pettersson type boats,way beyond the restoration point,trying to be sold for premium price,for what is basically bad firewood.......this is an extreme case of "re-sale value". A good boat.in good order will always command a premium price,i dont dispute that; i just do not agree that re-sale value should be the primary vision before making a purchase.

Sorry for the thread drift.

[rbgarr]

Beetle cats (I had one and have helped work on them) have thin and narrow planks that make it difficult to refasten into the frames. Iron fastened Beetles from that era were clench nailed and the nails have probably broken off/rusted through and caused enough deterioration in the frames that the frames AND planks will need replacing if you take that fiberglass skin off. The decks are planked also but not in a way that has a covering board along the sheer that you can remove for reframing.

All this construction method was designed so that the boats could be built rapidly from patterns and as much straight lumber as possible. The boats were built upside down over a mold that enabled light scantling material to be hung and banged together rapidly while holding a standard shape to the hull. Taking them apart is time consuming and demanding, if you want to hold the shape of the Beetle hull, which shape is most of its appeal IMO. Putting a few cross-spalls across the beam isn't enough to do it. The boats are shapely and when dismantled are limber and twisty.

The restored one shown above is a rebuild by IYRS students. http://iyrs.org/TrainingPrograms/IYR...5/Default.aspx Rebuilding used-up Beetles is a major part of their boat building and restoration course and the projects involve near total replacement of hull and deck parts. Things like the rudder, tiller, coamings and spars are sometimes salvageable. Yours look like they are in good shape. If you need a new centerboard, they are currently made of plywood.

Personally... I'd leave the fiberglass on, not worry about the iron sickness anywhere (unless the chainplate, stem fitting. traveler, pintles/gudgeons,centerboard pin and mast step fastenings are dubious; take care of them) and spend my time and money on the spars, sails and rigging. Enjoy the boat and go sailing, even if it leaks. There have been fiberglassed-over wood Beetles around for decades and they do fine. Bailing a wet Beetle is an easy, relaxing task.

The rubrails don't need to be pre-bent or steamed, even in oak, if there's solid material to screw them into. I'd use local wood, even a softwood. The rubrails are mostly decorative.

Best of luck and enjoy! It's fun that you were able to find the hull number and track down the build year. I tried to find out what number mine was from the sixties and had no luck.

[samclem]

Everyone need not have fear, I've already talked with Jay about his generous offer.

rbgarr:

thanks for the advice and comments on the rub rails I'll have to check the condition of the hull there, the originals look like they were unscrewed (I have them complete with the hardware) so I'm hoping it's good shape. This hull has been garaged for 40 years (since it's been on the west coast) which I suspect was the original reason for the glass because no doubt the planks shrank after being out of the water for a while. The mast step, centerboard and traveler, rudder and hardware and the associated hardware are all solid. I don't think the centerboard is original and it looks like a piece of exterior ply if I had to guess from the slight checking and the "football" shaped patches. The boom crutch is loose but I looks like the nuts have just loosened up and need to be cinched up, the stem fitting doesn't fit because there is a blob of glass and resin there but the stem looks solid.

The spars are in good shape, some signs of use but for the age they have held up well they do however need some attention to the finish, it's peeling in places and has the blotch papery spots in places. The sais of the most immediate need as the Dacron one has a couple of issues, I think the cotton one is likely not serviceable any longer but interesting to have nonetheless and interestingly enough when I was pulling the cotton mess out of the bag, the oar locks fell out which was an unexpected surprise.

[rbgarr]

Here are photos of the Beetle cat mold and some construction. http://www.beetlecat.com/store/Scrip....asp?extra=114

Sailrite makes a Beetle sail kit, and many owners have gone to whimsical sail colors and patterns.

[Tom Robb]

Scaraborgcraft,
I obviously misunderstood you. Sorry about that - and the drift thing.
Tom

[Carol Belshaw]

Oh, I love a Beetle cat...my first boat. Yes, they can be a lot of work but worthy of any and all effort. Any old boat will require some repair and IYRS in Newport, RI sells some of their restored Beetle project boats... $ I've seen them in the $5-7,000 range. My second boat started to fall away from its ribs as it had been left neglected upright on a trailer...we fixed it and had some great sails here in Narragansett Bay.