shooting

[Phillip Allen]

in CANADA!

http://news.yahoo.com/two-dead-19-in...055204658.html

well, I suppose Canada IS part of (north) America...

[Paul Pless]

sad

[Phillip Allen]

sounds like kids and party mix...the ones mentioned were young. I always wonder what sort of argument would call for killing one another

[LeeG]

Good thing AP News added the map showing where Canada was.

[Joe ( Cold Spring on Hudson )]

It's Obama's fault right, Awww Shucks ?

[bob winter]

Toronto ix starting to sound like a dangerous place. This is from the CBC:

Increase in number of shootings
Police have been dealing with a sharp increase in the number of shootings in the City of Toronto this year compared to last.

According to preliminary statistics posted on the police website, there have been 140 reported shooting incidents as of July 16.

Danzig Street, Toronto, Ont.
That’s an increase of 32.1 per cent compared to the number reported at the same time last year.

Prior to the shooting on Monday evening, 16 people had been killed in gun-related homicides on the streets of Toronto since January 1, compared to 14 people at the same time last year.

The Monday night shooting in Scarborough was also the latest event in which a gun was fired in a crowded public place.

A shooting at the Eaton Centre on June 2 left one man dead and another fatally wounded.

Later that month, a man was shot dead on a crowded patio in Little Italy where patrons had gathered to watch a soccer game.

On Canada Day, a man was shot in the chest after the close of a fireworks show.

[The Bigfella]

sad

yep, both the act and the glee

[Glen Longino]

yep, both the act and the glee

Especially the glee.
I'm surprised Phillip did not use the big toothy grin.

[TomF]

None of the news reports described the type of firearms used in these shootings. But I am assuming - assuming, mind - that folks within the group of 200 people (more or less ) attending this party-gone-wrong didn't bring long guns. This was in downtown Toronto - not at somebody's cabin out in the country, after all. I think it's fair to guess that the guns were concealed ... not somebody's deer rifle or waterfowling shotgun. Much more likely a handgun.

Which means that whatever firearms were used, it's also virtually certain that they're illegal here in Canada. Handguns are heavily restricted, and we've virtually zero concealed carry permits. Anyone carrying a handgun to the party will have been doing it illegally. And will have got it illegally. There's virtually no other path.

So, from where do you think Toronto might be receiving its influx of illegal handguns?

Americans oughta know that their freaking 2nd Amendment has significant implications for countries on their borders. I am more than irate that your criminals have such ready access to a pool of weapons to export to our criminals. That massive pool of weapons exists because of your 2nd Amendment; your Sacred Constitutional Right is making parts of my country a far less safe place to live.

[TomF]

Guns don't kill people, people kill people.

No, people with guns kill (and wound) people more efficiently than people without guns.

Minnesnowtan, I can kill someone with my hands, with a screwdriver, with a moderate sized rock, etc. But even though I've had a few years of training at it, I can't be anywhere as efficiently lethal as with a gun.

We had 2 people die, and 22 people injured in this fracas in Toronto when a gunfight broke out at a BBQ. Tell me that a couple of hoodlums would be as efficient in injuring innocent bystanders in the same amount of time, using simply their fists/feet, or a couple of knives or tire irons.

The 2nd Amendment is having significant negative impacts on your neighbours, who don't have your Sacred Constitutional Right. It would be nice if more of its champions acknowledged the international unintended consequence.

[B_B]

in CANADA!...

sad

yep, both the act and the glee

Especially the glee.
I'm surprised Phillip did not use the big toothy grin.

Just the other day Phillip said "It seems to me that many, otherwise smart, people have their personal identies [sic] meshed with the[ir] perception [,] we read and work frantically to maintain the self applied ruse" which sounded like he was saying his identity wasn't meshed with his self perception, and that he doesn't work frantically to maintain his self applied ruse. And yet, here we are. Working hard massaging our sense of superiority, then and now.

[B_B]

Toronto ix starting to sound like a dangerous place. This is from the CBC:

Increase in number of shootings
Police have been dealing with a sharp increase in the number of shootings in the City of Toronto this year compared to last.

According to preliminary statistics posted on the police website, there have been 140 reported shooting incidents as of July 16.

Danzig Street, Toronto, Ont.
That’s an increase of 32.1 per cent compared to the number reported at the same time last year.

Prior to the shooting on Monday evening, 16 people had been killed in gun-related homicides on the streets of Toronto since January 1, compared to 14 people at the same time last year.

The Monday night shooting in Scarborough was also the latest event in which a gun was fired in a crowded public place.

A shooting at the Eaton Centre on June 2 left one man dead and another fatally wounded.

Later that month, a man was shot dead on a crowded patio in Little Italy where patrons had gathered to watch a soccer game.

On Canada Day, a man was shot in the chest after the close of a fireworks show.

I don't know what's in the air in the GTA in 2012, but 2011 was a quiet year.

1.59 Homicide rate per 100,000 people in Toronto this year
12 Number of years since Toronto last dipped under a 2.0/100,000 murder rate (1999, 1.9 murder rate)
93.5 The solve rate in 2002, Toronto’s highest rate between 1993-2011
86 Number of people murdered in 2007, one of the deadliest years in Toronto history

2.4 The average murder rate in Toronto since 1993
24 Victims killed by firearms in Toronto in 2011
[COLOR=#000000][FONT=georgia]1 in 62,856 Chance of being a homicide victim in Toronto in 2011

To put that into perspective there are only three cities in the United States (El Paso, Lincoln, and Plano) with populations over 250,000 which have a lower murder rate (2010 statistics).

[RodSBT]

None of the news reports described the type of firearms used in these shootings. But I am assuming - assuming, mind - that folks within the group of 200 people (more or less ) attending this party-gone-wrong didn't bring long guns. This was in downtown Toronto - not at somebody's cabin out in the country, after all. I think it's fair to guess that the guns were concealed ... not somebody's deer rifle or waterfowling shotgun. Much more likely a handgun.

Which means that whatever firearms were used, it's also virtually certain that they're illegal here in Canada. Handguns are heavily restricted, and we've virtually zero concealed carry permits. Anyone carrying a handgun to the party will have been doing it illegally. And will have got it illegally. There's virtually no other path.

So, from where do you think Toronto might be receiving its influx of illegal handguns?

Americans oughta know that their freaking 2nd Amendment has significant implications for countries on their borders. I am more than irate that your criminals have such ready access to a pool of weapons to export to our criminals. That massive pool of weapons exists because of your 2nd Amendment; your Sacred Constitutional Right is making parts of my country a far less safe place to live.

What a pathetic comment.

Take responsibility for your own countrys' actions Tom, no one on this side of the border forced anyone in Canada to shoot their fellow citizens regardless of where they got the guns.

Should we should start blaming Canada for drunk driver deaths caused by people who were drinking Molsons?

[Flying Orca]

Should we should start blaming Canada for drunk driver deaths caused by people who were drinking Molsons?

Sure, when the only source of beer is Canada.

[RodSBT]

Sure, when the only source of beer is Canada.

Truly amazing!

Lenin was right.

[B_B]

...Should we should start blaming Canada for drunk driver deaths caused by people who were drinking Molsons?

FWIW, Molsons is owned by Coors

[David W Pratt]

Just a suggestion, Tom, get rid of your criminals and the guns won't matter.
There was a man named Jeff Cooper who was a gun journalist of some note, he fired hundreds of thousands of rounds in his lifetime and was present when millions more were fired.
He died peacefully in his home, of natural causes.

[Paul Pless]

Jeff Cooper

he was a for real hard ass, G&A hasn't been worth a damn since his death. . .

[bob winter]

Get rid of our criminals? Any insight as to how to accomplish that? I seem to recall reading the the US has the highest incarceration rate in the world but you still seem to have your fair share of criminals.

My vote? Get rid of the war on drugs, legalize them and tax them. Then most of the criminals will disappear.

[Iceboy]

41 just cause it's a gun thread.

[The Bigfella]

41 only applies in America

[TomF]

What a pathetic comment.

Take responsibility for your own countrys' actions Tom, no one on this side of the border forced anyone in Canada to shoot their fellow citizens regardless of where they got the guns.

Should we should start blaming Canada for drunk driver deaths caused by people who were drinking Molsons?

Has America done anything over the years to control the sources and flow of drugs in Colombia say? Or Honduras, Mexico, or Afghanistan? Like a War on Drugs maybe, complete with burning crops, blowing up manufacturing facilities, etc.?

Has America ever made "pathetic" observations that some countries are a supply pool for illegal drugs, that criminal elements in your own country use to meet domestic demand?

Handguns are illegal in Canada, for the most part - but just like for illegal drugs, there's a market. And in that illegal trade, America is our Colombia. We've got the demand among criminals alright, but the 2nd Amendment means that you guys are awash in supply ... and there are criminal elements more than willing to turn a profit by trafficking.

Wouldn't you want Colombia to acknowledge the slightest bit of responsibility for America's cocaine trade?

[BrianW]

Which means that whatever firearms were used, it's also virtually certain that they're illegal here in Canada. Handguns are heavily restricted, and we've virtually zero concealed carry permits. Anyone carrying a handgun to the party will have been doing it illegally. And will have got it illegally. There's virtually no other path.

So, from where do you think Toronto might be receiving its influx of illegal handguns?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Para-Ordnance

[gilberj]

Tom is right. The fact is our immediate neighbour to the south has a thing about guns. One could make amusing comments about adequacy. That thing about guns spills across our mutual border into this country. America has more gun related violence than any other developed country. In Canada we like guns too. There are a lot of gun owners but we have some controls on guns, when and where they can be owned and used. Other developed countries more distant than we are from America have less gun related violence than we do and obviously much less than in America. There are a lot of responsible gun owners in America and in Canada. There are obviously some people on both sides of the border are not responsible. Easy access to guns increases the likely-hood of guns being acquired by persons who are not safe with a weapon.
I work a bit with young people with challenges. Some of them would be positively scary if they got their hands on a gun, even more so if they were using some mind affecting substance, including prescripted meds, or forgetting to take those meds.
Sorry, but easy access to weapons is a factor in this type of violence. The Second Amendment is a problem. It is not the whole problem, but it a major factor.
One of those who died last night was a 16 year old girl. Another who was hit but did not die was an infant.

[TomF]

...There was a man named Jeff Cooper who was a gun journalist of some note, he fired hundreds of thousands of rounds in his lifetime and was present when millions more were fired.
He died peacefully in his home, of natural causes.

I've read a bunch of Cooper's stuff over the years - it's impressive. I've no problem with long guns, and support Canada's (and America's) hunting traditions. I rather doubt the people shot in Toronto this week were shot with rifles or waterfowling shotguns. No civilian takes one to a BBQ in downtown Toronto.

Handguns, on the other hand, are designed mostly for anti-human tasks, and are more easily carried and concealed. That's why criminals like'em, and why law-abiding Americans buy them for self-defence against criminals. Probably that's what shot the Toronto folks. The intentional targets, and the collateral damage ones.

But handguns are illegal in Canada, except in very specific circumstances. Excluding police, pretty much anyone you'd encounter on the street with a handgun got it illegally, owns it illegally, and carries it illegally. Almost all of them were smuggled into Canada ... and most of them came from America.

[TomF]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Para-Ordnance

We make'em, and sell'em internationally.

But Canada's handgun laws mean that very, VERY few are sold in Canada. And strict records are kept of all of those sold legally. Some of our criminals might easily be using Para-Ordnance weapons, but they'd almost certainly have been re-imported (i.e. smuggled) into Canada after being legally sold into the United States.

[Paul Pless]

I've read a bunch of Cooper's stuff over the years - it's impressive. I've no problem with long guns, and support Canada's (and America's) hunting traditions.

Its worth noting that the good Colonel was primarily interested in and an expert in combat pistol craft. . .

[Phillip Allen]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Para-Ordnance

looks like the most often drepeated propaganda wins again... also, I have been attacked several times without cause in this thread... propaganda repeated

the 'truth' is whatever gets repeated over and over...

[Phillip Allen]

Its worth noting that the good Colonel was primarily interested in and an expert in combat pistol craft. . .

I always thought him a bit too gruesome

[TomF]

Its worth noting that the good Colonel was primarily interested in and an expert in combat pistol craft. . .

Yeah, but what I was more interested in was his articles about turning army surplus Mausers into "Scout" hunting rifles.

[Phillip Allen]

I've read a bunch of Cooper's stuff over the years - it's impressive. I've no problem with long guns, and support Canada's (and America's) hunting traditions. I rather doubt the people shot in Toronto this week were shot with rifles or waterfowling shotguns. No civilian takes one to a BBQ in downtown Toronto.

Handguns, on the other hand, are designed mostly for anti-human tasks, and are more easily carried and concealed. That's why criminals like'em, and why law-abiding Americans buy them for self-defence against criminals. Probably that's what shot the Toronto folks. The intentional targets, and the collateral damage ones.

But handguns are illegal in Canada, except in very specific circumstances. Excluding police, pretty much anyone you'd encounter on the street with a handgun got it illegally, owns it illegally, and carries it illegally. Almost all of them were smuggled into Canada ... and most of them came from America.

were the police at the party?

[TomF]

looks like the most often drepeated propaganda wins again... also, I have been attacked several times without cause in this thread... propaganda repeated

the 'truth' is whatever gets repeated over and over...

Phillip,

It's not propaganda to say that Canadian law treats handguns much like it treats illegal drugs.

It's not propaganda to observe that most illegal handguns in Canada flow in across the border from New York State. That's just police statistics.

And it's not propaganda to say that an impact of the 2nd Amendment has been to create a pool of millions of handguns circulating in America. Which provides a pool that criminals can (and do) draw on to traffick them illegally into Canada.

And FWIW, I'm not attacking you. But I am irate that some champions of the 2nd Amendment are entirely unwilling to acknowledge an unintended consequence which is making some parts of Canada less safe.

[TomF]

were the police at the party?

Once the shooting happened, I expect so. But no, the police weren't the shooters.

[Paul Pless]

But Canada's handgun laws mean that very, VERY few are sold in Canada. And strict records are kept of all of those sold legally. Some of our criminals might easily be using Para-Ordnance weapons, but they'd almost certainly have been re-imported (i.e. smuggled) into Canada after being legally sold into the United States.

All that we are hearing about from Canadians is that you have a problem with American gun laws. Is that because its too difficult for you to address or even discuss your gang problem? your ineffective metropolitan police problem (one police source indicated that they did not even know that an 'illegal' block party was being held)? or your social and income inequality problems? that ultimately lead to violence . . .

Is it possible that its just easy to ignore your problems and blame America? Have you thought of having a more secure border to prevent guns from entering?

[Phillip Allen]

well, there has now been much speculation on what happened and I haven't found anything to add to what I already have said... the info may never come out for that matter.

so far I have been (indirectly and directly) accused of being gleeful and grinning at this tragedy... I have been guilty of neither

[pipefitter]

Guns don't kill people. Soccer does.

[tigerregis]

It's not guns; it is the owners. Anyway you slice it they are the dregs of somewhere else. Trudeau let them in and the unintended consequences are rampant. Just look at the photos. It is right there in living black and white. Sorry, one is not supposed to call a spade a spade in good ole PC TO.

[Kaa]

Americans oughta know that their freaking 2nd Amendment has significant implications for countries on their borders.

So, lessee... you want a neighbouring country to amend its Constitution (the last non-trivial amendment was over 40 years ago) just because some of your yobs shot up some people? Would you like a pony with that? :-)

Kaa

[Paul Pless]

It's not guns; it is the owners. Anyway you slice it they are the dregs of somewhere else. Trudeau let them in and the unintended consequences are rampant. Just look at the photos. It is right there in living black and white. Sorry, one is not supposed to call a spade a spade in good ole PC TO.

i guess it was only a matter of time

[RodSBT]

Has America done anything over the years to control the sources and flow of drugs in Colombia say? Or Honduras, Mexico, or Afghanistan? Like a War on Drugs maybe, complete with burning crops, blowing up manufacturing facilities, etc.?

Has America ever made "pathetic" observations that some countries are a supply pool for illegal drugs, that criminal elements in your own country use to meet domestic demand?

Handguns are illegal in Canada, for the most part - but just like for illegal drugs, there's a market. And in that illegal trade, America is our Colombia. We've got the demand among criminals alright, but the 2nd Amendment means that you guys are awash in supply ... and there are criminal elements more than willing to turn a profit by trafficking.

Wouldn't you want Colombia to acknowledge the slightest bit of responsibility for America's cocaine trade?

I don't hold other countries responsible for OUR drug problem. That's a line of bigotry I don't follow.

[RodSBT]

We make'em, and sell'em internationally.

But Canada's handgun laws mean that very, VERY few are sold in Canada. And strict records are kept of all of those sold legally. Some of our criminals might easily be using Para-Ordnance weapons, but they'd almost certainly have been re-imported (i.e. smuggled) into Canada after being legally sold into the United States.

So what you are saying is that your border security sucks.
Again, how about taking responsibility for YOUR problems instead of blaming another country.

[pipefitter]

I seem to recall reading the the US has the highest incarceration rate in the world but you still seem to have your fair share of criminals.

My vote? Get rid of the war on drugs, legalize them and tax them. Then most of the criminals will disappear.

America has always been a violent place. When you look at the incarceration statistics, the correlation with law abiding citizens wanting firearms starts to become apparent.

Along with this higher crime rate, is also a larger market for illegal firearms. That's why if they outlawed guns entirely, the criminals would still have plenty of guns.

As with the war on drugs, a war on guns could likely end up with the same result, or even worse.

[RodSBT]

[QUOTE=TomF;3473223...Which provides a pool that criminals can (and do) draw on to traffick them illegally into Canada.

And FWIW, I'm not attacking you. But I am irate that some champions of the 2nd Amendment are entirely unwilling to acknowledge an unintended consequence which is making some parts of Canada less safe.[/QUOTE]

If you know they are criminals then why are they out in the general public?

As far as "unintended consequence"? Bull Crap! Take responsibility for your own problems and your fellow canucks who cause them.

[TomF]

All that we are hearing about from Canadians is that you have a problem with American gun laws. Is that because its too difficult for you to address or even discuss your gang problem? your ineffective metropolitan police problem (one police source indicated that they did not even know that an 'illegal' block party was being held)? or your social and income inequality problems? that ultimately lead to violence . . .

Is it possible that its just easy to ignore your problems and blame America? Have you thought of having a more secure border to prevent guns from entering?

Sure, we have a gang problem - that like most gang problems, is associated with the drug trade. Bigger problems in the bigger cities.

The street-level thugs in the gangs used to be mostly armed with knives etc. - I used to work with some, 20 years ago. One of my former child welfare kids died in a stabbing ... Higher level criminals could always get smuggled handguns, but most street level thugs couldn't. I know - the kids I used to work with (who did break/enter, stole cars, sold drugs etc.) would have used them.

That's changing, at least in the bigger cities. The illegal market is stronger, and our border security isn't any more successful in keeping guns out as either of our countries are at keeping illegal drugs out.

There's lots Canada needs to do to improve policing etc. There's lots to be done to address the socio-economic stuff which gives people an incentive to crime. But it's also worth noting that our illegal handguns come from somewhere.

[TomF]

I don't hold other countries responsible for OUR drug problem. That's a line of bigotry I don't follow.

Right. So you'd dismiss a series of Presidents' (both parties) actions using force in a variety of countries to restrict the supply of illegal drugs destined for American markets as "pathetic" and avoiding responsibility?

Just so we're clear.

[Phillip Allen]

this thread has certainly veered off course with recriminations... does anyone have more information about that actual event/tragedy?

[tigerregis]

PP. That is the response from the press and the national broadcaster. Now, here we have "Human" rights tribunals to punish non PC comments. It is the emperor's new clothes and everyone is supposed to go along with the charade. If it is not a charade, please explain it to me in your terms. Thanks

[TomF]

Rod,

Why do American criminals have firearms? Why do American criminals have cocaine, heroin, and various other offshore-produced drugs to sell? Has America not taken any steps to tighten border security? To find criminals and lock them up? Surely if America were effective at this, you'd have no drug trade and no crime rates.

I'm not saying Canadians should simply stand around wringing our hands, tsk tsk-ing about the bad, bad criminals. Even the bad, bad criminals who smuggle guns across the border from New York State.

But I am saying that there's an impact of living next door to a major source of an illegal commodity. And it's fascinating that so few seem willing to acknowledge that there's any connection. It's a mind-f*ck, I guess, when something you like (and is legal for you) is an illegal commodity somewhere else.

Kaa, I'm not suggesting that Americans repeal the 2nd Amendment. For a whole bunch of reasons I've described on earlier gun threads, frankly I don't think you should. But I'm lamenting that Canada's becoming less safe thanks to proximity, and the illegal trade.

[Iceboy]

41 only applies in America

I could swear Canada is in America. North I think. Course I could be wrong and geographically challenged. It would make a great 51st state.

[Glen Longino]

this thread has certainly veered off course with recriminations... does anyone have more information about that actual event/tragedy?

I don't think the thread has "veered off course" simply because some of us noticed and commented on your typically smug tone in your OP.
C'mon, admit it...you're tickled shyteless that this shooting happened in Toronto rather than Little Rock!