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Thread: Romney's IRA

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    Default Romney's IRA

    The Individual Retirement Account was intended to be a means of tax-advantaged retirement savings... a way to make tax-free contributions to an account which could grow, tax-free, until retirement, at which time, the withdrawals would be taxed.

    This was a great step forward for the average middle class person.... a way to get a 'step up' on retirement assets.

    In order to avoid a huge hit on tax revenues, the IRA rules were devised to maximize the amount of money that a person could shelter in any given year... so the plan was a great benefit for people who contributed annually, over a long time horizon, without causing a massive hit on tax revenues. Presently, the conventional IRA rules permit contributions up to $5000 ($6000, if you're over 50)... at age 70 1/2, no more contributions may be made, and a certain amount MUST be withdrawn, and taxed, each year.

    (The Roth IRA, conversely, inverts the rules; you invest 'after tax' money, up to a limit, which then grows tax-free, and at retirement time, the money can be withdrawn, tax-free. The Roth compliments the conventional IRA, and can be more advantageous to higher income people with enough disposable income to withstand the after-tax contributions).

    As is seemingly typical these days, there are different plans for wealthier people... another example of the inequity in the tax code. A corporation can establish a plan called a SIMPLE IRA, in which employers can make contributions up to $30,000, free of tax, for each employee. I started a SIMPLE IRA many years ago, when I went into business. I never did well enough to deposit more than a few thousand per year into it.... but very successful people could maximize the contribution at $30,000, which can be argues was an unfair advantage over ordinary folks who don't own corporations.

    Regardless, the IRA was a good thing.... and people who maximized their contributions over a long period of time have done very well.... or, at least, SHOULD have.... considering the stagnation of the stock market in the past 10 years, it hasn't paid off as well as one would have hoped.

    So how is it that Romney has IRA assets worth somewhere between $20M and $100M? How is that possible?

    During Romney’s tenure at Bain Capital -- from 1984 to 1999, although a recent Boston Globe article uncovered Romney having a role at Bain until 2002 -- the firm used a so-called SEP-IRA, which is like a 401(k) retirement plan but is funded entirely by the employer and has a much higher maximum contribution: about $30,000 annually during the period Romney was at Bain. Assuming Romney maxed out these tax-deferred contributions, he would have invested roughly $450,000 in his SEP-IRA during his years at Bain.

    While there are limits to the amount that can be contributed tax-deferred to an IRA, there are no restrictions on the amount of money that the contributed capital can earn and can continue to earn, on a tax-deferred basis, even after the contributions have stopped. (The
    Internal Revenue Service will get its pound of flesh from Romney when he takes the money out of the IRA.) The only limit is the skill, or luck, of the IRA’s owner. If you are the Warren Buffett of IRA investors, it is conceivable that you could turn $450,000 into as much as $102 million -- an increase of 227 times -- but not very likely, especially as in the last decade or so, the stock market has been a roller coaster. Mere investing mortals would be lucky to still have $450,000 in the account. (The median American family has $42,500 in traditional IRAs, according to the Investment Company Institute.)
    So how did Romney realize a gain of 22,700%, presuming he invested the statutory maximum amount, under SEP IRA rules?

    Of course, not every deal Bain did worked out. But let’s say Romney was prescient and put into this hypothetical IRA only the stock of the buyout companies that did well, returning to investors a whopping 10 times their money. (This is very rare but conceivable.) Even so, that would turn Romney’s $450,000 into $4.5 million. If the money was also compounded and reinvested over the years and became, say, $10 million, that would still leave another $11 million to $92 million of unexplained value sitting in the presumptive Republican Party presidential nominee’s IRA.

    This great mystery seems to have troubled others, as well. On July 3, Current TV host Jennifer Granholm, a former Democratic governor of Michigan, invited Edward Kleinbard, a law professor at the University of Southern California, on her show to discuss how Romney could have accomplished this remarkable feat. There were “only two possibilities,” Kleinbard told Granholm. Either “from a little acorn, a mighty oak grew very, very quickly, extraordinarily so,” Kleinbard explained, causing Granholm to interject, “What little acorn could grow to be $101 million? I want to get some of that acorn!”

    The other possibility, Kleinbard suggested, was not dissimilar to what Maremont theorized: that Romney contributed limited-partnership interests in Bain’s buyouts to his IRA. What was “quite troubling” to Kleinbard is that he suspected Romney may have contributed these interests to his IRA at a fraction of their market value -- “pennies on the dollar” -- and well below what he might have charged you or me. When the buyouts became successful, Kleinbard proposed, the pennies on the dollar were suddenly worth real dollars.

    “What’s very frustrating to me about all this is that we can only talk in abstractions and generalities because, again, of the lack of disclosure,” Kleinbard said.
    Without full disclosure, we'll never know how he managed to turn that sow's ear into a silk purse.... but I believe it was the latter suggestion: Romney invested assets which, for the purposes of tax reporting, were intentionally undervalued. By investing stock of takeover and turnaround companies, it would be very easy to claim just about ANY valuation, due to the absence of liquidity of the asset. Some asset that Romney might have sold for $100M to a willing buyer, could very easily be described, in reporting to the IRS, as having negligible value. It's a loophole of gigantic proportions, only available to people of Romney's wealth.

    No wonder he won't release his tax returns.
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    Default Re: Romney's IRA

    rich people suck
    I never learned from a man who agreed with me.

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    Default Re: Romney's IRA

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Pless View Post
    rich people suck
    Nahh, they don't suck. It's just that some of them believe their own PR.
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    Default Re: Romney's IRA

    I like to think the worst of him. I need some negativity in my life and prefer it be about him rather than my annoying nephew.

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    Default Re: Romney's IRA

    I will only release 2 tax returns. But I have nothing to hide. Not in the Cayman Islands. Not in Bermuda. And certainly not in Switzerland.
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    Default Re: Romney's IRA

    Three points to focus on:

    1. Romney will not win the presidential electon and will continue on with his life in whatever fashion he desires, but not in politics.
    2. The tax codes are complex and you should lobby for simplicity and best functionality for national interests and personal interests.
    3. The internal Revenue Service will get its pound of flesh when Romney takes money out of the IRA.

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    Default Re: Romney's IRA

    Quote Originally Posted by The Judge View Post
    It's odd that the term "rollover" fails to appear in an article which seeks to explore how an IRA might come to have a great deal of cash in it. Very odd indeed.
    In what possible way?

    In the context of an IRA, a 'rollover' is a transfer of funds from another IRA, or a 401(k), to an existing IRA. Bain Capital, according to their own filings, never had a 401(k) program, so any 'rollover' would have had to come from another IRA.

    The key issue is clear: did Romney and Bain Capital apply a false valuation of assets placed into their SIMPLE IRA? If not, then how, exactly, did he experience a return of up to 22,700%?
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    Default Re: Romney's IRA

    Quote Originally Posted by Norman Bernstein View Post
    ....The key issue is clear: did Romney and Bain Capital apply a false valuation of assets placed into their SIMPLE IRA? If not, then how, exactly, did he experience a return of up to 22,700%?
    I think you're on to something, Norman.

    Keep digging, or at least keep following those who are doing the digging.
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    Default Re: Romney's IRA

    Quote Originally Posted by MiddleAgesMan View Post
    I think you're on to something, Norman.

    Keep digging, or at least keep following those who are doing the digging.
    I think this may indeed be the smoking gun.

    Why is mitt Romney continuing to refuse to release his tax returns.... Especially considering the beating he's taking in the media, including from republican politicians and pundits?

    Is it because we may find out that he's rich? We already know that.

    Is it because we might find out he pays an extraordinarily low tax rate? We already know that.

    Perhaps it is because nearly half his wealth, possibly more, has been sheltered in a SIMPLE IRA, massively overfunded by claiming ridiculously low valuations on illiquid assets?

    If I were looking for a way to completely avoid taxation of the growth of my investments... And if I had no ethics.... That is certainly how I would do it. The IRS can't possibly track valuations of illiquid assets, so it just takes the taxpayers word for it.

    Imagine for a moment if you had some stake in facebook before the IPO. You know that the stock will eventually skyrocket, but right now, the only value that can be assigned to it is just book value... A tiny fraction of its eventual worth... So you put it into your IRA.... And almost overnight, it's value multiplies 100 fold. Now, since you are one of the original owners, you get the company to declare a 'special dividend'.... And since your stake is in an IRA, the dividend won't be taxed.

    Greate scam!
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    Default Re: Romney's IRA

    Quote Originally Posted by Norman Bernstein View Post
    If I were looking for a way to completely avoid taxation of the growth of my investments... And if I had no ethics.... That is certainly how I would do it. The IRS can't possibly track valuations of illiquid assets, so it just takes the taxpayers word for it.!
    Shame on the IRS, good job Romney.

    I feel no obligation to the IRS. They get only what the law requires. After that, if I'm feeling charitable, I'll donate to a charity.

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    Default Re: Romney's IRA

    Quote Originally Posted by BrianW View Post
    Shame on the IRS, good job Romney.

    I feel no obligation to the IRS. They get only what the law requires. After that, if I'm feeling charitable, I'll donate to a charity.
    The law requires that the value of assets placed into an IRA not exceed a specific amount. Intentionally mis-valuing the assets is fraud, pure and simple. If your 'good job' comment was based on the idea that Romney was able to get away with it...then what, exactly, are you congratulating him for? His competency at criminality?
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    Default Re: Romney's IRA

    I was unaware that he has been convicted of criminal tax evasion.

    Thought that would have made the Huff blog and been posted here by wward.

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    Default Re: Romney's IRA

    Quote Originally Posted by BrianW View Post
    I was unaware that he has been convicted of criminal tax evasion
    He hasn't, yet. Maybe that's why he'd rather risk his campaign, than release his tax returns.
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    Default Re: Romney's IRA

    I don't think he has a chance of winning anyhow, so maybe it's the right move.

    That said, he doesn't have to release them for the IRS to double check.

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    Default Re: Romney's IRA

    Quote Originally Posted by BrianW View Post
    I don't think he has a chance of winning anyhow, so maybe it's the right move.

    That said, he doesn't have to release them for the IRS to double check.
    The IRS wouldn't double-check, unless some evidence of genuine tax fraud came to life.... They aren't staffed to do valuations. It would take an investigation by the justice dept to do that, and that ain't gonna happen in an election year.

    But it could happen afterwards.
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    Default Re: Romney's IRA

    Quote Originally Posted by The Judge View Post
    It's odd that the term "rollover" fails to appear in an article which seeks to explore how an IRA might come to have a great deal of cash in it. Very odd indeed.
    What in hell are you talking about,judgie?
    Romney has an IRA that pays off like a shower of gold from the heavens. What could he roll it into that woud be any better?
    Romney is 65. In 5.5 years he will have to draw it down. By then there may be a new IRA tax dodge engineered by your friend and mine, Eric Cantor.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Pless View Post
    rich people suck
    Indeed. Your blood and mine, amigo.

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    Default Re: Romney's IRA

    Quote Originally Posted by Norman Bernstein View Post
    The law requires that the value of assets placed into an IRA not exceed a specific amount. Intentionally mis-valuing the assets is fraud, pure and simple. If your 'good job' comment was based on the idea that Romney was able to get away with it...then what, exactly, are you congratulating him for? His competency at criminality?
    The left becomes desperate and disingenuous at best, now they begin to make outright accusations of felonies, first with fraudulent filings with the SEC and now they imply felony tax evasion. Laughable. What do you think the chances are that Romney's returns were not already audited by the IRS? I would say slim to none. Exceedingly large and complex returns, like the ones Romney was sure to file are always a flag, and if you are audited once, there are often followups.
    Last edited by Paul Pless; 07-17-2012 at 07:00 AM.
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    Default Re: Romney's IRA

    Quote Originally Posted by Geo Duck View Post
    Norman, when money is withdrawn from an IRA at retirement it's taxed as ordinary income. If someone had assets they knew would appreciate that much why would they want them taxed at the highest rate rather than the long term capital gains rate?
    It makes economic sense. For one thing, Romney only has to withdraw the minimum required distribution, from an IRA account, and only after age 70 and a half..... and after he dies, the account passes to his heirs. By putting undervalued assets into an IRA, he gets the benefit of un-taxed growth, whereas, if he held them in a taxable account, they income they threw off would be taxed. I'm going to presume (quite reasonably) that Romney doesn't need the income... so why pay taxes on the dividends at all, if they can compound, tax-free? It makes perfect economic sense.

    Quote Originally Posted by Geo Duck View Post
    If you're suggesting that Romney did something illegal please tell us exactly what it is.
    I'm suggesting that it is possible that Romney took advantage of the IRS's inability to price illiquid assets, by putting them into his SIMPLE IRA at a cost basis well below their actual value. The IRS doesn't have the manpower to chase abuses like that.... it can't even track the basis prices of securities, for normal sales of assets, so this shouldn't be a surprise. Basically, the IRS takes the taxpayer's word for the value of the assets (in the case of IRA contributions), or the basis price of sold securities (in the case of ordinary stock sales).

    On the other hand, maybe Romney's astute business ability enabled him to achieve a possible 22,700% gain in his IRA contributions over a 20 year period. If you believe that, I've got some swampland to sell ya.
    Last edited by Norman Bernstein; 07-17-2012 at 09:25 AM.
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    Default Re: Romney's IRA

    Correction: Romney's IRA is a SEP IRA, not a SIMPLE IRA. The contribution limits for SEP IRA's are higher than for SIMPLE IRA's, which explains why the original article quoted a $30K limit. Actually, the limit is higher and has risen in recent years... yet another advantage available only to the very rich.
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    Default Re: Romney's IRA

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Pless View Post
    The left becomes desperate and disingenuous at best, now they begin to make outright accusations of felonies, first with fraudulent filings with the SEC and now they imply felony tax evasion. Laughable. What do you think the chances are that Romney's returns were not already audited by the IRS? I would say slim to none. Exceedingly large and complex returns, like the ones Romney was sure to file are always a flag, and if you are audited once, there are often followups.
    Don't know where you got the above.
    It has been common knowlwedge for years the IRS prefers not to chase tax dodgers in the upper reaches of the income scale because they employ the toughest and most knowledgable of tax attorneys who will draw the fight out for years if necessary. The IRS gets quicker and bigger pay offs from going after the multitude of those who can only afford run of the mill representation.

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    Default Re: Romney's IRA

    Quote Originally Posted by Norman Bernstein View Post
    In what possible way?

    In the context of an IRA, a 'rollover' is a transfer of funds from another IRA, or a 401(k), to an existing IRA. Bain Capital, according to their own filings, never had a 401(k) program, so any 'rollover' would have had to come from another IRA.

    The key issue is clear: did Romney and Bain Capital apply a false valuation of assets placed into their SIMPLE IRA? If not, then how, exactly, did he experience a return of up to 22,700%?
    It's that very last sentence that people should concenrate on. It seems mathematically impossible.

    On the other hand if he could put our tax dollars someplace where they earn that interest rate........
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    Default Re: Romney's IRA

    Quote Originally Posted by Norman Bernstein View Post
    The law requires that the value of assets placed into an IRA not exceed a specific amount. Intentionally mis-valuing the assets is fraud, pure and simple. If your 'good job' comment was based on the idea that Romney was able to get away with it...then what, exactly, are you congratulating him for? His competency at criminality?
    It would be fraud, but since he's running for office it will be free speech.
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    Default Re: Romney's IRA

    Quote Originally Posted by Geo Duck View Post
    If I'm bit mistaken anyone with self employment income can open a SEP IRA. My wife has one and we've contributed the maximum to it in some years. We aren't "very rich".
    Have you gotten a 22,700% return in your IRA?
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    Default Re: Romney's IRA

    Quote Originally Posted by Norman Bernstein View Post
    Have you gotten a 22,700% return in your IRA?
    Of course there's a simple, legal, completely ethical explanation; which those on the left are unwilling to entertain. Leverage.

    From the Huffington Post:

    For instance, after Bain bought Domino’s Pizza in 1998 for $1.1 billion, Bain partners (and the limited partners who went in on the deal) were able to get a slice of the equity of the company. Given the high leverage put into the pizza maker to finance its purchase, it’s a safe bet there was very little equity value at the start, meaning that shares with little book value could be contributed to the IRA.

    If Romney put $30,000 worth of Domino’s Pizza stock into his 1998 SEP-IRA, it is conceivable that it would be worth many times that amount when Domino’s went public in 2004. If Romney did the same thing over and over again during the 15 years he was at Bain doing leveraged buyouts, it is conceivable that the $450,000 would increase greatly in value.

    I can't believe that I'm posting a cut and paste from Huffpo. If you're interested about that rate of return - the article goes on to say how its similar to some rates of return that Warren Buffett has earned. . .
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    Default Re: Romney's IRA

    All I can say is Romney keeps making Obama look better.

    I'd like to say something here about "attack" ads and "negative" ads. I don't think they are attacks if they are true.

    Or at least mostly true. Sometimes we have gray areas. My understanding is, as Governor, Romney vetoed a bill that would have prevented firms in his state offshoring jobs to India. In that regard, he okayed the practice.

    Nixon fell to the cover up, as have others. It's hard to imagine anything more damaging to Romney than the continued aparent "cover up" The secrecy of his finances may spread to secrecy about what government programs he will cut, etc. I'm reminded of Nixon's secret plan to end the Vietnam War.
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Smith View Post
    I don't think they are attacks if they are true.

    Or at least mostly true.
    omfg, this from the guy that promotes legislating honesty in political speech!!!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Pless View Post
    Of course there's a simple, legal, completely ethical explanation; which those on the left are unwilling to entertain. Leverage.
    If this is true, then why is he risking his bid for the Presidency by continuing to refuse to release his tax returns?

    Your explanation makes SOME sense, except that, as I have previously stated, the valuation of illiquid stock is subject to very wide interpretation. The value of any stock is what a willing buyer would pay a wiling seller... but if there's no willing seller, then the price can be whatever he wants it to be.... he can value the stock at 1 cent a share, and argue that since he's not a willing seller... and there are no other willing sellers... then his presumption of the value is what it is.

    Stock held before an IPO has no 'valuation', other than what the owner of the stock might claim. He could have deposited 30,000 shares of a company that he knew would fetch $100/share, AFTER the IPO, but may have 'valued' them at 1 dollar, for the purposes of hitting his SEP IRA limit.

    If he didn't do that, then the tax returns would clear him of any suspicion.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Norman Bernstein View Post
    Stock held before an IPO has no 'valuation', other than what the owner of the stock might claim.
    I don't think this is a true statement. Just because the stock hasn't been offered for sale doesn't mean that it doesn't have a value associated with it. As soon as stock is created it represents a real share of that company.
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Judge View Post
    Sign the petition!!!
    I'd be what, the fourth person to do so???
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    Default Re: Romney's IRA

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Pless View Post
    Of course there's a simple, legal, completely ethical explanation; which those on the left are unwilling to entertain. Leverage.
    Quote Originally Posted by Norman Bernstein View Post
    If this is true, then why is he risking his bid for the Presidency by continuing to refuse to release his tax returns?
    I'm not even sure that info would be in his tax returns.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BrianW View Post
    I'm not even sure that info would be in his tax returns.
    It must be in there, its the frikkin smoking gun. . .
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    Default Re: Romney's IRA

    I get the feeling the "returners" (like 'birthers' but for democrats) are going to be disappointed by the results of whatever he releases, and want more financial disclosure.

    It won't change their minds, or slow them down.

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    Default Re: Romney's IRA

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Pless View Post
    . As soon as stock is created it represents a real share of that company.
    Which is what? And according to whom?

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    Quote Originally Posted by BrianW View Post
    I get the feeling the "returners" (like 'birthers' but for democrats) are going to be disappointed by the results of whatever he releases, and want more financial disclosure.
    You're wrong. If Romney DID do full disclosure, and there was nothing there worthy of note, I'd gladly admit it, and drop the entire line of questioning.

    Now, what do you think the chances are that Mitt is willing to toss away his hopes for the Presidency, even though there is nothing there?

    By the way, it still wouldn't affect my voting decision. Here's yet another reason why:

    Mitt Romney's plan not to force companies to pay taxes on profits they bring back from overseas will eliminate jobs, according to a new report by the Center for American Progress Action Fund.

    That's because Romney's tax plan includes eliminating the Repatriation Tax, which applies to corporations that try to bring profits made overseas back into the country, according to Bloomberg.

    Most multinationals find loopholes
    that prevent them from paying the full tax, according to CAP. That increases incentives for businesses to do more business, or store more profits, overseas.

    Between 1999 and 2010, U.S. corporations eliminated 1 million jobs at home while creating 3 million jobs abroad. Romney's plan to eliminate the Repatriation Tax altogether would simply exacerbate the problem, CAP argues.

    The tax incentives included in such a system would encourage corporations to shift more of their investments and operations overseas, costing America as many as 800,000 jobs, according to Reed College economist Kimberly Clausing. Combine that part of the plan with his idea to lower corporate tax rates to 25 percent, and it altogether could cost the U.S. Treasury more than $1 trillion, the report estimates.

    Romney's plan wouldn't be the first time lawmakers have given multinational corporations a break on their repatriated profits.
    In 2004, the U.S. Congress approved a tax holiday, which cut the Repatriation Tax to 5 percent, The Wall Street Journal reports. During this tax holiday, multinationals brought 90-100 percent of their overseas cash earnings back to the U.S. Still, the tax holiday did little to spur job growth.
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    Default Re: Romney's IRA

    Quote Originally Posted by Geo Duck View Post
    So you know what the value of stocks will be after their IPOs? I'm surprised you're not out enjoying your own $250M fortune instead of hanging around here squawking about Mitt Romney's IRA.
    The above is an "ad hominem " attack. It shows that you ain't got the brains to go head to head on the facts.
    This place isn't the Oxford Union but it's pretty lofty if you are a dummerasel.

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    Default Re: Romney's IRA

    Quote Originally Posted by Geo Duck View Post
    So you know what the value of stocks will be after their IPOs?
    No. However, I do know that the stock of a company just about to go through an IPO is worth a great deal more than it's book value. I can't prove it, and neither can the IRS... which is why it may not be illegal... but it's clearly unethical.
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  38. #38
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    Default Re: Romney's IRA

    Quote Originally Posted by Norman Bernstein View Post
    You're wrong. If Romney DID do full disclosure...

    More than tax records?

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    Default Re: Romney's IRA

    Quote Originally Posted by cuyahoga chuck View Post
    which is what? And according to whom?
    GAAP iii
    I never learned from a man who agreed with me.

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    Default Re: Romney's IRA

    Quote Originally Posted by BrianW View Post
    More than tax records?
    I haven't heard anyone call for anything other than his tax returns... for at least 6-8 years, or more.... right in line with a 'standard' established by his own father.
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  41. #41
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    Default Re: Romney's IRA

    Quote Originally Posted by Norman Bernstein View Post
    ...which is why it may not be illegal... but it's clearly unethical.
    The IRS makes the rules. If they can be beat, that's not unethical, that's smart.

    Does anyone here pay more in taxes than they have to?

  42. #42
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    Default Re: Romney's IRA

    Quote Originally Posted by Norman Bernstein View Post
    I haven't heard anyone call for anything other than his tax returns... for at least 6-8 years, or more.... right in line with a 'standard' established by his own father.
    Do you think the IRA info will be in there? If it mentions an IRA, it will probably be a simple number and not broken down.

    I've got a couple 401k's, and I don't recall them even being listed on my 1040. I pay an accountant to do my taxes, and didn't look that hard.

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    Default Re: Romney's IRA

    Quote Originally Posted by Norman Bernstein View Post
    No. However, I do know that the stock of a company just about to go through an IPO is worth a great deal more than it's book value. I can't prove it, and neither can the IRS... which is why it may not be illegal... but it's clearly unethical.
    In the absence of market for shares, the GAAP might *force* you to value the stock at book value -- generally speaking, accountants are very wary of valuing things on the basis of "I think it's worth a great deal more" :-)

    Kaa
    Last edited by Kaa; 07-17-2012 at 01:49 PM.

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    Default Re: Romney's IRA

    Quote Originally Posted by Norman Bernstein View Post
    I can't prove it, and neither can the IRS... which is why it may not be illegal... but it's clearly unethical.
    Norman, you have repeatedly stated on this very forum that there is nothing unethical in filing your taxes in a manner which takes advantage of the law. That stock did have a book value and it was legal and ethical to use that value in his IRA accounting. Admit it, this just another liberal witch hunt born of desperation that Mitt Romney might win the election.
    I never learned from a man who agreed with me.

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    Default Re: Romney's IRA

    Quote Originally Posted by BrianW View Post
    The IRS makes the rules. If they can be beat, that's not unethical, that's smart.
    That is what we'd like to determine... whether it was adept tax avoidance, or questionable tax evasion.

    Quote Originally Posted by BrianW View Post
    Does anyone here pay more in taxes than they have to?
    I certainly don't.... but then again, I haven't planted my assets in half a dozen foreign nations, either.
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    Default Re: Romney's IRA

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaa View Post
    In the absence of market for shares, the GAAP might *force* you to value the stock at book value -- generally speaking, accountants are very wary of valuing thing on the basis "I think it's worth a great deal more" :-)

    Kaa
    Thank you Kaa.
    I never learned from a man who agreed with me.

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    Default Re: Romney's IRA

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Pless View Post
    Norman, you have repeatedly stated on this very forum that there is nothing unethical in filing your taxes in a manner which takes advantage of the law. That stock did have a book value...
    If so, then an examination of his tax returns would absolutely end all questions about it.

    He's running for PRESIDENT. Repeat, PRESIDENT. Voters have a good reason, and an implied right, to know.
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    Default Re: Romney's IRA

    Quote Originally Posted by Norman Bernstein View Post
    That is what we'd like to determine... whether it was adept tax avoidance, or questionable tax evasion.
    It seems you have already made up your mind.

    Quote Originally Posted by Norman Bernstein View Post
    No. However, I do know that the stock of a company just about to go through an IPO is worth a great deal more than it's book value. I can't prove it, and neither can the IRS... which is why it may not be illegal... but it's clearly unethical.
    I never learned from a man who agreed with me.

  49. #49
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    Default Re: Romney's IRA

    In the absence of market for shares, the GAAP might *force* you to value the stock at book value -- generally speaking, accountants are very wary of valuing thing on the basis "I think it's worth a great deal more" :-)
    If that was the basis of the valuation, when the deposits to his IRA were made, then that's OK with me.

    Then again, I don't know that to be the case.... and a 22,700% increase over and above the maximum legal deposits to the IRA is a bit more than merely 'remarkably good luck'. This was precisely what Harry Markopoulis thought, when checking the investment claims of Bernie Madoff.
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  50. #50
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    Default Re: Romney's IRA

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Pless View Post
    It seems you have already made up your mind.
    I can't make up my mind about the specifics until I see the evidence.

    As a voter, however, I can 'take away points' from a candidate for what I have reason to suspect is untruthful or evasive statements which might be used to hide something that the voters ought to know.
    Tish happens (I'm dyslexic)



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