Stupid sjupid libruls ghey still thnk they can fookl us.

[ChaseKenyon]

More from my facebook feeds. please excuse the typos.

In defiance of a court order, the city of Scranton, PA has decided on slashing its workers salaries to the federal minimum wage. And once July 13th hits, those workers will lack health insurance as well. This is the climax of a decades long battle between the city and those which work for it.
Scranton, also known as The Electric City, has been mis-managing its finances for some time. With the award of back-fees last year by the State of Pennsylvania Supreme Court, Scranton is left scrambling to make up the shortfall it created for itself by failing to meet its obligations over the past decade. Rather than paying its contracted obligations, the city chose to cheat its way out in an attempt to bust the unions, and when caught was suitably punished. The cost to the Scranton taxpayer is close to double what was saved by the city.

Of course when someone suggests the city may not have made the right decision with its tax cuts over the past decade, the City Council President Janet Evans engaged in diversionary tactics, shifting the blame to the city Mayor, Chris Doherty. The council has blocked repeated measures to attempt to stave off the calamity, but the further they push off the inevitable, the harsher the remedy becomes. The 10.5% tax cut is going to wind up causing an eventual 67% tax hike to make up for the shortfalls. Short term gain for long term pain.The city has already floated plans to sell off its parking meters and stormwater drains, to ill results. Rather than addressing the root of the revenue shortfall, the city continues to have the lowest tax rates in the area, while having the largest obligations due to the demand of city services caused by such a large population.
This kind of problem is a self fulfilling prophecy. As the city slashed its services, people moved out of the city, which has had a decrease in population of 15.41% since 1990. To entice people back, they slashed taxes, which hurt revenue. To fix budget gaps, they slash services. The slashing of services drives people out of the city. This is the method for city collapse. Failure to maintain the city’s services results in a death spiral of financial calamity.
At the current pace, it is only a matter of time before someone pulls the plug on The Electric City.

• Looks to me like a smaller scale test run of Paull Ryan's budget plans. The Reps are still claiming that tax breaks for the extremely wealthy and cutting services and teachers and so on for everyone else will fix the economy and restore government services at the same time as creating lower taxes for all. Soooo.lets fix the country the Romney and Ryan way. Those who vote for that future deserve what they get. Reduce taxes on the top rate, double them on the poorest who get half of what the Elite Reps servants get for a wage and and with less revenue and bigger deficits will fix all teh problems our country has. Yeah, Right , reps. Reagan had to raise taxes before his first year was over. But the RWWN who believe the tea Party and Fox "not" news continue to make claims of fix.ing it all by giving more tax cuts to the rich and reducing revenue. Harvard MBA actually believe this can work mathematically ?
  
  Oh I forgot for a second here Mitt Romney and hjs entire GOP campaign is focused on winning the presidency of AMERCIA as they so weell posted and advertised.
  
  Ok by me as long as no one is dumb enough to believe his and ryans plan to save us by reducing revenue instead of raising it. Teh people in tthe lower tax brackets don't make enough to actually pay those higher rates Romney/Ryan want. Sop there is no gain there and they insist on giving money away in tax cuts to the top. Therby reducing revenue into a downward spiral just like the Scranton test. But with Romney It will be different it will work. all you have to do is take the time to read all of his plans and specific technical proposals and you can see how he has real by the Dollar budget plans, and imigrAtation and wALL STREET AS WELL.
  
  iIf Obama would ever actually publish or speak about any plans instead of saying if it is what i said then then I will stick to it no matter what I said, then we could compare the details and make some fact based decisions.57 minutes ago · Edited · Like
• 
  It is so hard to evaluate and make comparisons when neither of the top two "prancers" NEVER GIVE ANY DETAILS to compare to.56 minutes ago · Like
• 
  I mean what the he!!, Cant those political dumbos understand they can not just continue to say, " the recession recovery would have been better and achieved more under their control." For crhying out load we and MitchMc connel worked day and night to put together this Jobs bill and they will not even let it on the floor for debate let alone an actually vote. And They will not listen to us about women's rights to have their medical issues between them and the doctors. They spend hour and hours on women's rights and control saying we can't allow them to decide on abortion or not in their diminished capacity to think due to the hormones that cause a pregnancy. These jokers and their party have even passed a state law saying A fetus that has full rights as a citizen exists starting at a women's last period three weeks ago not last night when she had sex for the first time in 4 months. They are really upset that not everyone knows that and can't understand we need to move on from that topic and work on the Jobs bill. Get Romney in the White house before they do any more damage.
  
• So they still keep proposing bills about women's private moral decisions (talk about a whole new gov't agency out of control to police women and make sure they see the disgusting abortion videos and won't even discuss our jobs bill we worked so hard on.
• come on now we all know gov't agencies and regs are ruining the country we need to make the gov't smaller not add new federal agencies to monitor and act as the abortion police! Get the fed out of our personal business. Dang we need Mitt and some real detailed fixes to the jobs bills and stop discussing what we all already know and just pass the dang law and that addresses the beginning of life at the past menstruation as The start of legitimate citizenship of the fetus. $hit everybody knows that is the truth.
  
• Stupid stupid liberals, they won't vote on our jobs bill and I guess can't read it and understand simple language and pass it to put Amercia back to work. Ow they want another agency to micromanage even your family planning. We'll just have to get rid of those idiotic "planned Parenthood" nothing more than death factory two minutes per job abortion centers. If cutting funding doesn't work we just outlaw them with a new federal statute. Silly them we could have the Abortion Police handle that job as well give them some more agents is all you need.15 minutes ago · Like
  
  

[ChaseKenyon]

I am getting confuzzed here.
continuing......
Help me out who is the party of new and more gov't rules and agencies to ensure compliance at your home in your bed and in your doctors office?

who's got the budget plan this month?

Who is it that has a detailed published jobs plan?

Who has a detailed abortion clinic shut down plan?

Who is it with no details that says THEY coUld have done the recovery better, especially if we had let GM and the Auto industries and all teh suppliers and the core of the country's manufaCTURING
base go under. And if we had done that their way, unemployment would be half what it is when that whole industry had gone under. They should have gone under, every one knows the ludicrous auto union wages are responsible for the financial collapse.

This is really confuzzing. Is the tea party of less government trying to pass federal laws controlling what you can and cannot do or discuss in your bedroom or doctors office? Border patrol and INS and Homoland security are already stretched to thn we will have to establish a new agency. Should it be part of the NSA or Dep of Interior, or maybe agriculture (if your spouse is a fat pig) or ????

Argggggh

What oh what wold George Carlin do?

[Paul Pless]

Looks to me like a smaller scale test run of Paull Ryan's budget plans. The Reps are still claiming that tax breaks for the extremely wealthy and cutting services and teachers and so on for everyone else will fix the economy and restore government services at the same time as creating lower taxes for all. Soooo.lets fix the country the Romney and Ryan way.

Isn't Scranton's mayor a Democrat, as well the entire city council????

[ChaseKenyon]

I got no clue Paul.

I just saw some s$hit from different sources and had a George Carlin moment of noticing massive irony heading towards "Ludicrous Speed". Hmm think I have a dvd of that movie movie somewhere. Maybe out in the camper / tour bus.

Wow if we only had George here to witness this primary and the current ?? (whatever you want to call it) and get going with his irreverent wisdom of commentary.



BTW goood morn and have a good day.

1st shift showed up a minutia ago so I am heading for the horizontal status soon.

[hanleyclifford]

Hold your horses, Libs - still a lot of football to play. Politics is the art of timing.

[bobbys]

Isn't Scranton's mayor a Democrat, as well the entire city council????

..

"You have an all Democratic council and you have a Democratic mayor," says Sam Vitris, president of International Association of Machinists and Aerospace Workers Local Lodge 2305. "It's not Republican versus Democrat. This is Scranton City Council versus the mayor."

Scranton has had financial troubles for a couple decades now. A troubling mix of declining population since World War Two and economic hard times has stretched city finances. The mayor and city council have debated since last fall over how to fill a $16.8 million budget gap.

Doherty wants to increase taxes. The council wants to find other sources of revenue such as payments from tax-exempt non-profits like local universities.

"If they'd gone with my budget, we wouldn't be having this discussion," says Mayor Doherty. "The taxes would have been raised. The bills all would have been paid because we would have had a dedicated revenue stream."

Scranton's city council members did not respond to NPR's repeated requests for an interview.

Without an agreement, the city faces a cash-flow crisis. Last week, even after paying only minimum-wage salaries, the city had just over $5,000 left. More money has since come in, but not nearly enough to pay the estimated $1 million still owed to workers.

This fight is another scar for an already ailing city. Downtown, many store-front windows have "for lease" signs in them. The economy was a big issue here long before the rest of the country tanked a few years back.

"It's getting worse and things need to be done," says life-long resident Colleen Maziarz. "The mayor and the council really need to get together and they don't they argue and they fight with each other and they just don't agree."

That's the first complaint many residents have. The second is they don't want higher property taxes. Pushing for that has made Mayor Doherty unpopular with some residents.

"All Doherty knows is, 'Raise the taxes so I can spend money.' That's all he cares about," says Scranton resident Bob Moschorak. Given a few more minutes to think about it, Moschorak's criticism of Doherty becomes even more pointed: "Put a violin in his hand and let him be like Nero, and play the violin while Scranton burns down."

The unions representing police, fire fighters and public works employees are threatening to file a contempt of court motion against the mayor, hoping that will help their members get their old salaries back. Meantime, Scranton's workers are starting a new week earning minimum wage, with no resolution in sight..

Seems the Democrats are against the Unions as well .

Strange the OP left out the whole place is run by Democrats.

I suppose that did not fit his agenda of ranting against Ryan, Republicans, abortion, tea party, Fox , Romney.

Rather embarrassing the OP chose this as his comparison model.

Just as Custer saw a Big village and gave no thought to what was there so did the OP post without putting much thought into it but instead charged headlong oblivious to the facts.

[BrianY]

The point of this cautionary tale has little to do with which party the mayor and the city council members belong to.

The lessont is that no matter who is in charge - republican or democrat - the strategy of cutting services and taxes does not appear to stimulate economic growth and, in fact, it appears to do quite the opposite. A secondary lesson from all of this is that there have to be reasonable limits on service and tax cuts. Otherwise they do more harm than good.


Politicians and the common people should learn from this example. I am somewhat optimistic that most democrats are open to these lessons. I have absolutley no confidence that the same can be said for most Republicans, particularly those in Congress and in the Romney camp, and the Tea Party crowd.

[Paul Pless]

The lessont is that no matter who is in charge - republican or democrat - the strategy of cutting services and taxes does not appear to stimulate economic growth and, in fact, it appears to do quite the opposite. A secondary lesson from all of this is that there have to be reasonable limits on service and tax cuts. Otherwise they do more harm than good.

I think there's also some (hard) lessons on long term sustainability, living in denial, and on procrastination of local politicians. Also there are some 'inertias' - global, national, and industrial in nature which no municipality can hope to overcome. . .

[Waddie]

BrianY;

The lessont is that no matter who is in charge - republican or democrat - the strategy of cutting services and taxes does not appear to stimulate economic growth and, in fact, it appears to do quite the opposite. A secondary lesson from all of this is that there have to be reasonable limits on service and tax cuts. Otherwise they do more harm than good.

So you favor ending the Bush Tax cuts entirely and ending the Obama Payroll Tax cuts entirely ? Seems Obama disagrees with you. What taxes would you raise in Scranton that aren't high enough already - witness the business closings in Scranton. Or do you support the mayor's call for a 78% increase ?

Here's the choices - and consequences;

In May, Mr. Doherty proposed a recovery plan that contains a 78% tax increase over the next three years. The council has balked at such large tax hikes and wants to offset them by maximizing alternative sources of revenues, such as contributions from nonprofits, and commuter, payroll and sales taxes. The mayor has countered that alternative revenues won’t raise enough money and won’t occur quickly.

One thing is obvious: a 78% local tax increase isn’t anything which should be labeled a “recovery plan” by anybody. There are a lot of poor people in Scranton, people who are just making ends meet, and a near-doubling of their local taxes will be beyond their means.

And “commuter, payroll and sales tax” increases will simply encourage new businesses, and perhaps some older ones, to locate outside of the city limits. Some businesses will be location-dependent, and cannot move, but there will be many which could simply be a block outside of the city line, not lose customers and business at all, and gain a competitive advantage on prices and employees.

http://www.journal14.com/2012/07/05/...pay-the-money/

good luck, Scranton,

regards,
Waddie

[bobbys]

Why do Democrats hate working people?

[Gerarddm]

Why do Democrats hate working people?

Idjit. Dems ARE the working people.

Over the past ten years in particular, the Republicans have been more than happy to stick it to the middle class. And The Wad has swallowed their guff, whole.

[Waddie]

Gerarrddm;

And The Wad has swallowed their guff, whole.

That's the best you got? H*ll, I don't care if Scranton raises taxes on their citizens 78%. I won't be paying it. Or do what the council wants - taxes on non-profits and a payroll tax. That will really help lower paid workers won't it? And even the mayor says it isn't enough. So what is enough? Double everyone's taxes? And if tax revenues continue to drop because of ever increasing taxes? Double the taxes again? Where does it end?

You're the one who has swallowed the Dem BS whole.

regards,
Waddie

[John Smith]

Idjit. Dems ARE the working people.

Over the past ten years in particular, the Republicans have been more than happy to stick it to the middle class. And The Wad has swallowed their guff, whole.

Working people hate other working people: American as apple pie. Here's one piece http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/07/10...-minimum-wage/

I hope people here don't make this too simplistic. I've posted often that the government needs to be adequately funded. If it isn't adequately funding something, somewhere gets cut. The downward spiral continues.

I strongly suggest people who've not seen it get a copy of "Roger and Me" to see how job outsourcing hurt/destroyed Flint Mi. Once the good jobs left and people couldn't pay their mortgages or sell their homes, it got very interesting. The city still had a payroll to meet, but less and less money to meet it with.

Obama has tried to get money to the states and the cities so they can keep their public employees employed so that they can pay their rent/mortgage and are customers for the private businesses.

Nothing happens in a vacuum. Everything impacts something else.

One question I wish the people on tv would ask the conservatives: How many private sector jobs have been lost because we have too many public school teachers?

[BrianY]

BrianY;

So you favor ending the Bush Tax cuts entirely and ending the Obama Payroll Tax cuts entirely ? Seems Obama disagrees with you. What taxes would you raise in Scranton that aren't high enough already - witness the business closings in Scranton. Or do you support the mayor's call for a 78% increase ?

I favor ending the tax cuts for the $250,000/year and up crowd immediately and then phasing out the tax cuts for everyon else gradually.I believe that the current level of income going to the federal governmnt versus the cost of the services we demand from the government is inadequate and unsustainable.

But that's beside the point.

The point is that if we citizens want services such a police, fire, schools, public transportation, parks, road maintenance, tash removal, etc. etc. then we have to be willing to pay for them. Either we do so with user fees or through taxes. The hypocricy of the "no new taxes" crowd is that they want government sevices but they don't want to pay for them. Everyone goes on about cutting "wasteful spending" but one man's "waste" is another's "essential service". Yes there are things that can and should be cut - I'd start with agriculture subsidies, ethanol subsidies and defense - but at some point we have to decide which programs we want or need to keep and then put up the $$ to pay for them.

You can't pay teachers, cops, firemen etc. minimum wages and expect that a) you can actually hire any qualified people to do these jobs, and b) that those you do manage to hire will perform at the professional levels we expect them to.

If the residents of Scranton (or the USA) don't want to pay higher taxes, fine. They should not, however, be surprised that they don't have any municipal services, that their schools,fire and police departments are sub-par, that crime rates go up, that those business and residents who are able to leave end up leaving and that economic prosperity and quality of life declines for everyone in the city (country).

[bobbys]

Idjit. Dems ARE the working people.

Over the past ten years in particular, the Republicans have been more than happy to stick it to the middle class. And The Wad has swallowed their guff, whole.

.

I would thank you not to name call as i do not call you this.

The point here as written in the OP thread is.

In defiance of a court order, the city of Scranton, PA has decided on slashing its workers salaries to the federal minimum wage. And once July 13th hits, those workers will lack health insurance as well. This is the climax of a decades long battle between the city and those which work for it..

As Written and proven this is all under Democratic control.

So when there is no money Workers get Minimum wage and no Heath insurance..

No republicans to blame here.

Guess they could start a recall though...

[Waddie]

BrianY;

I favor ending the tax cuts for the $250,000/year and up crowd immediately and then phasing out the tax cuts for everyon else gradually.I believe that the current level of income going to the federal governmnt versus the cost of the services we demand from the government is inadequate and unsustainable.

Oh, really? So government spending 40% of GDP is too little? How much would be about right? 60%? 80% ? 100% ?



http://www.usgovernmentspending.com/...ury_chart.html

For follow-up on the two ways of figuring this - both result in a high number - follow liberal Cokie Roberts comments that gov spending is indeed 40% of GDP, and evaluated by Politifact., and found to be mostly true...

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-me...s-40-percent-/

BrianY;

You can't pay teachers, cops, firemen etc. minimum wages and expect that a) you can actually hire any qualified people to do these jobs, and b) that those you do manage to hire will perform at the professional levels we expect them to.

You also can't sustain paying them 60% more than the average taxpayer earns, Cadillac health plans, great benefits compared to average workers, and bloated early retirement pensions.

We will need austerity wherever possible, tax hikes where practical and borrowing for the rest. Our choices now are pain or more pain. Sorry, but that's reality.

regards,
Waddie

[BrianY]

BrianY;

Oh, really? So government spending 40% of GDP is too little? How much would be about right? 60%? 80% ? 100% ?

That's not the point. Government spending should be at a level suffcient to pay for the things we want from our government. Right now, we're asking government to give us more than we appear to be willing to pay for. There is no magic percentage of GDP that is correct.

If we as a people agree on the stuff we want from our government and it costs 60% or 6% of GDP, that's fine. The point is that we have to be willing to pay for the services we want. If we aren't willing to pay for stuff, we shouldn't expect or demand it. It's actually quite simple. Of course, our politicians are always telling us that we can have stuff and not have to pay for it.

You also can't sustain paying them 60% more than the average taxpayer earns, Cadillac health plans, great benefits compared to average workers, and bloated early retirement pensions.

So, do you believe that the state should set limits on what teachers, policemen and firemen should be able to earn? Why them and not any other people?

The thing that really frosts me is when people complian about the unions and the "cadillac health plans, great benefits, etc. " that union members receive aas f it is all the union's fault. The teachers, police and firefighter's unions exist to work for the benefit of their members and why shoudl they be expected to work against the interests of their members? It's not the unions' fault if citys and towns agree to contrcat terms that they cannot oafford. Remeber, it takes two parties to agree to a contract. Instead of attaking the unios for working to get the most for their members, people should be attacking government agencies for agreeing to the terms.

In any case, you have to remember that there is a competative market for these people. If your school district pays its teachers 60% more than the average taxpayer and the next town over pays 60% less, which district is going to attract and retain the best teachers? It's not rocket science....

It all comes down to a series of If/Then statements: If you want oustanding teachers and cops and firefighters, then you have to compensate them accordingly. If youo need to compensate them accordingly, then you have to have sufficient revenue streams (i.e. taxes) to do so. If you're not willing to pay enough or cut other things out of the budget to compensate them appropriately, then you won't have outstanding teachers, cops and firefighters.

The problem comes when people demand services and levels of service but are unwilling to pay for it.

I think that everybody understands that if the New York Yankees want to hire the best pitcher in baseball, they have to assess whether they can afford to pay him what the market says he's worth or not. If they can, they might be able to sign the guy. If they can't pay him that much, they won't be able to sign him. No one expects that the pitcher will agree to a lower pay rate just out of the goodness of his heart and no one thinks it's OK if the Yankees complain that the pitcher won't work for him becasue they're not willing to pay him what he's worth.

Aren't teachers, cops, firefighters, corporate CEO's, doctors, lawyers etc. exactly the same? Why should they agree to work for less than what teh market says they're worth? Yet everyone complains about the teachers, cops and firefighters as if they're somehow differnt from any other employee in any other profession.

We will need austerity wherever possible, tax hikes where practical and borrowing for the rest. Our choices now are pain or more pain. Sorry, but that's reality.

No argument from me on that. I would also add that we also need to make choices about what we want and what we're willing to pay for.

[hanleyclifford]

Graph in post #16 is a little out of date. Spending to GDP ratio is now over 44%.

[skipper68]

I would offer that the politicians should ALSO be put on minimum wage with no benefits. OH my! I do crack myself up sometimes Here in NY they are cutting FEDERAL food stamps and HEAP, while voting themselves a raise AGAIN. What ever happened to serving your town, city, state etc? Now it's a get rich for life job if your a 1 term Senator. Last one out of Scranton, turn off the lights- Umm, never mind- that bill wont be paid either..shame on them all.

[Waddie]

BrianY;

Of course, our politicians are always telling us that we can have stuff and not have to pay for it.

I agree, and both sides have been guilty. Dems promise benefits without paying for them and Reps promise tax cuts without paying for them.

BrianY;

In any case, you have to remember that there is a competative market for these people. If your school district pays its teachers 60% more than the average taxpayer and the next town over pays 60% less, which district is going to attract and retain the best teachers? It's not rocket science....

Nothing new about that. Everything is competitive. Besides, most all governments are cutting. Most private sector is or has cut. You have experienced people in all occupations now working for entry level wages. I suspect there's no shortage of teachers. Our local police dept had 1600 applicants for a half dozen jobs. Over 10,000 applicants for the new casino.

Briany;

So, do you believe that the state should set limits on what teachers, policemen and firemen should be able to earn?

Yes. A percentage of the average private sector salary for that classification of employee would be a way to determine that wage. What is the average salary for a person holding a BA degree in the private sector? When are they eligible to retire? What is their average pension? How much on average do they spend on health care premiums every month?

When did it become standard operating procedure for government workers to reap much better rewards than the private sector? I thought it was supposed to be "public service"?

BrianY;

It's not the unions' fault if citys and towns agree to contrcat terms that they cannot oafford.

Pleeeeze!! Unions have spent over 4 Billion dollars on campaigns over the last few years. Elected officials have to negotiate contracts with union bosses that can un-elect them if they don't play ball -- or greatly reward them if they do what the union bosses want. That's not even close to a fair fight. So politicians promise things that they know can't be done, but they're out of there before the bill comes due. Same for the union bosses -- they also know they're empty promises, but they get to keep their jobs with the membership and eventually they're out of there too before the bill comes due. Well, the bill is now due. And the promises are empty. So what to do? Austerity/tax hikes/borrow. And hope that's enough, cause it could get worse.....

BrianY;

Why them and not any other people?

Because they are paid with taxpayer money. What the private sector does is between them and their employees. That's where I have no problem with union bargaining. Every private sector should be unionized if that's what the workers want.

regards,
Waddie

[BrianY]

Yes. A percentage of the average private sector salary for that classification of employee would be a way to determine that wage. What is the average salary for a person holding a BA degree in the private sector? When are they eligible to retire? What is their average pension? How much on average do they spend on health care premiums every month?

When did it become standard operating procedure for government workers to reap much better rewards than the private sector? I thought it was supposed to be "public service"?

That might be ok if teachers weren't required to continually take classes and expected to earn Master's degrees or higher as they are in this part of the country. I understand that our local cops are also required to do similar post-bachelor degree training while on the job.

The average person holding an average bachelor's degree working a service industry job or sales job or some other non-professional job doesn't have this kind of requirement. They get their degree, they get a job and their education pretty much ends. What private sector job classification is similar to a teacher or cop ? You're comparing apples and oranges.

As for the "public service" thing...teachers aren't "public servants". Cops aren't either. They're not elected. They're professionals employed by the public to do a job just as any other employee for any other employer. You wanna pay teachers and cops and firefighters like secretaries and sales people ? Well, you're going to get what you pay for. These people do jobs that are vital to our society, thatbrequire specialized and ongoing training and/or significant risk of inkury or death and you think thatbtheir value should be determined by comparing them to fast food store managers, telemarketers and other positions that are occupied by people with bachelor's degrees? That's nuts. People won't do these jobs - at least the good ones won't - if you don't pay them a decent wage to compensate them forbtheir education, professional expertise and personal risk.

Perhaps we should apply thesame standard to all governmnet employees - FBI and Secret Sevice agents, CIA and NSA analysts, nuclear scientists, CDC investgators, etc. After all, aren't they "public servants" too?

[ChaseKenyon]

"You have an all Democratic council and you have a Democratic mayor," says Sam Vitris, president of International Association of Machinists and Aerospace Workers Local Lodge 2305. "It's not Republican versus Democrat. This is Scranton City Council versus the mayor."

Forgive my "thread" branch here. But you guys and gals know me sometimes parts of it just fall out. PTSD sucks but dad put it all on the line while still mob billeted to the pres of the Naval war College and did research on my case and training. He said he was 100 % sure that my memory was intentionally "washed" before I was allowed to come back stateside. That that was why the ship went home to Philly shipyard and I was held up Belgium and Italy for a month then flew home on civilian passenger aircraft. Hmm why did they always even if more roundabout and higher cost always send me on Delta . Every day with no pain I get triggers and DVDs of info which often comes back as a big block of knowledge and memory.

I are one of the IAMAW lifetime card carrying alumni as a honorably inactive The released reserve after four years in the union and two as a shop steward. The union and our local leaders helped me to use my steward ship as a weapon and be the human resources department's worst nightmare. I never lost a mediation. So they gave me an offer of going white and entering the (hard to get as a nomination to West Point or the Airforce academy, both of which I had before CSU and the NAVY. was first alternate to both) corporate blue to white non exempt and then full salary exempt as a design and research development engineer. I was one of the last three of us to win this legacy from the early 50s program to use war experience and knowledge to create R and D design engineers with ludicrous amounts of empirical knowledge. Insteac of holding to feed their own ego's my union leaders told me about the opportunity and helped me prep and take on all electronics disputes for mediation, and then use that with five giuys as research assistant's to force the HR to move me to Salary. It cost them the last instant pay increase for the new job and the most extensive engineering training program you can imagine. First 6 months four hours of class and 5 of job. Then 12 months of three hours of work and 3 of design and payback justification all the way to the top of United Technology's board and five of class work including things like an evaluation of the electrical distribution system of the largest private substation in CT who's documentation was 2 years out of date. Got real used to sitting at the drafting table. My drafting course was a real job that had to be done and no mistakes allowed. In that year I prepared and presented five projects not just Ham std tsaving but full corporate wide all facilities all projects totaling 4.5 million $, all with a less than 15 months full payback. That was important since anything under 2 year payback was easily bank funded as investment loans. you did not need to use and corporate capital for any of my projects. After that I s;pent a year working as Non exempt 10 to as much as 15 hours a day and 2 out of every five weeks at Allen Bradley Controls, GE CNC and AB cnc and
honey well system, including delta 2000 and GNC and Circle W ranch high voltage power distribution systems and more. All throug this I was carrying 12 or more class credits at NWCCC in my Environmental Technology degree program. That and the take over of the largest ;private substatin and largest industrial treatment facility in CT was the final kicker that with my union help stomped the other candidates out of contention for the super job and training program.

Trained in engineering methods and more and textbooks from age 7 on. Working on contract as summer job as off site contract junior engineer from age 13 on. GTrained and taught and tested on all of dad's mechanical and better his aeronautical courses and textbooks, and then his notes and labs and such for racing jplanes and then all of his stuff on helicopters and even his NACA/NASA notes andsuch from al the core original research he headed up at Langley on how to make survivable composite wingtips and rotor blades when they go super sonic in a dive . (very key stuff for the rotary wing folks.)

Oh yeah well I think very highly of many if not most unions. My union got me my promotion to an above union level job and then a lifetime career as an Research and development design engineer.

A life time designing and being the lead engineer building Successfully what every one said could not be done and if it could we won't have the technology for 15 years..

My union gave me the privilege of being the first USA and the 15th internationally to test pass in both disciplines certified Manufacturing engineer and then the same weekend the full controls,systems and robotics additional exam.

My union gave me the privilege of filing some 60 plus patent pendings and I don't know how many of those successful designs were taken all the why to a full patent award.
My union gave me the privilege of Being evaluated by the top 100 research engineer in mobile robotics and artificial intelligence and advanced automated vision systems (my favorite) and then chosen to lead the annual conferences for 3 years at which point I had to beg off to deal with out of state family issues.

I am a good not out of the box but three or more dimensions engineer. My union recognized my talent and without it's support I would never have had all those opportunities and just plain fun.
.
Oh yeah I am big pro on unions.

[Waddie]

That might be ok if teachers weren't required to continually take classes and expected to earn Master's degrees or higher as they are in this part of the country. I understand that our local cops are also required to do similar post-bachelor degree training while on the job.

The average person holding an average bachelor's degree working a service industry job or sales job or some other non-professional job doesn't have this kind of requirement. They get their degree, they get a job and their education pretty much ends. What private sector job classification is similar to a teacher or cop ? You're comparing apples and oranges.

As for the "public service" thing...teachers aren't "public servants". Cops aren't either. They're not elected. They're professionals employed by the public to do a job just as any other employee for any other employer. You wanna pay teachers and cops and firefighters like secretaries and sales people ? Well, you're going to get what you pay for. These people do jobs that are vital to our society, thatbrequire specialized and ongoing training and/or significant risk of inkury or death and you think thatbtheir value should be determined by comparing them to fast food store managers, telemarketers and other positions that are occupied by people with bachelor's degrees? That's nuts. People won't do these jobs - at least the good ones won't - if you don't pay them a decent wage to compensate them forbtheir education, professional expertise and personal risk.

Perhaps we should apply thesame standard to all governmnet employees - FBI and Secret Sevice agents, CIA and NSA analysts, nuclear scientists, CDC investgators, etc. After all, aren't they "public servants" too?

Yes they are. And it is possible to compare apples and oranges. All of the extra classes teachers take advances them on the salary scale. They're not REQUIRED to get Masters degrees; it's how they advance on the salary schedule. Moving to the right on the salary scale.... up a step and over a step if you took some classes. Lots of occupations require regularly updating knowledge in order to stay certified. It's not unique to teachers or police officers.

regards,
Waddie

[ChaseKenyon]

..

"You have an all Democratic council and you have a Democratic mayor," says Sam Vitris, president of International Association of Machinists and Aerospace Workers Local Lodge 2305. "It's not Republican versus Democrat. This is Scranton City Council versus the mayor."

Scranton has had financial troubles for a couple decades now. A troubling mix of declining population since World War Two and economic hard times has stretched city finances. The mayor and city council have debated since last fall over how to fill a $16.8 million budget gap.

Doherty wants to increase taxes. The council wants to find other sources of revenue such as payments from tax-exempt non-profits like local universities.

"If they'd gone with my budget, we wouldn't be having this discussion," says Mayor Doherty. "The taxes would have been raised. The bills all would have been paid because we would have had a dedicated revenue stream."

Scranton's city council members did not respond to NPR's repeated requests for an interview.

Without an agreement, the city faces a cash-flow crisis. Last week, even after paying only minimum-wage salaries, the city had just over $5,000 left. More money has since come in, but not nearly enough to pay the estimated $1 million still owed to workers.

That's the first complaint many residents have. The second is they don't want higher property taxes. Pushing for that has made Mayor Doherty unpopular with some residents.


The unions representing police, fire fighters and public works employees are threatening to file a contempt of court motion against the mayor, hoping that will help their members get their old salaries back. Meantime, Scranton's workers are starting a new week earning minimum wage, with no resolution in sight..



Seems the Democrats are against the Unions as well .

I got no clue Paul.

I just saw some s$hit from different sources and had a George Carlin moment of noticing massive irony heading towards "Ludicrous Speed". Hmm think I have a dvd of that movie movie somewhere. Maybe out in the camper / tour bus.

Wow if we only had George here to witness this primary and the current ?? (whatever you want to call it) and get going with his irreverent wisdom of commentary.

Strange the OP left out the whole place is run by Democrats.


That is not even a good Ad Homo attack.

I made it quite clear the DEM REP situation was irrelevant. the DEM REP situation was irrelevant.
It was with no disguise at all a George Carlin style rant about the ludicrousness or the entire situation. It matters not which party.


The only comparison was not who is right or wrong. It was however a wake up this looks like the Ryan plan which has never worked and this is a micro economic result that will be mirrored on a massive scale If romney and ryan get to run things.

Rather embarrassing the OP chose this as his comparison model.
The only comparison was not who is right or wrong. It was however a wake up this looks like the Ryan plan which has never worked and this is a micro economic result that will be mirrored on a massive scale If romney and ryan get to run things.
Don't you feel embarrassed That you only read the typical party extreme "talking ;points " and then made the typical "we just do what we are told" party "talking points as a knee reaction and any single word even out of context is justification to make ad homs and spiel a bunch of party talking points.

Just as Custer saw a Big village and gave no thought to what was there so did the OP post without putting much thought into it but instead charged headlong oblivious to the facts.

Ok , you say I am oblivious of the facts. Time for show and tell. Prove it with your documented facts. Anything from Fox News is not a legitimate source for your proof.


Fact Neither Romneyor any of his team has even talked about some of the things they will do that will be better than Obama's actions. No methods overall method not even a general plan as to the Jobs, the economy ,the tax issues, Bin Laden , National security, immigration, the budget, and more.

One year of taxes that is intentionally unintelligible even to the best tax Lawyers in the world.

Most of his wealth stashed out side the USA. Sounds like the Wall street bankers selling derivatives and at the same time betting on those derivatives they created and control going belly up.

Mitt is claiming to be a patriot.
Yep went to Paris instead of Nam or as a religious objector (Baha'I) Like I did and NATO OPS turned out to be worse.

Most of Mutt's wealth is in foreign banks.

One of NH's Lake Winnepausaukee guaranteed A$$holes. Even up here he acts like his money makes him a higher level ;person. like the lady at the Long Island fundraiser well we are VIP.

His knowledge and his "bought by dad it seems" MBA and Law degrees do not rate up here. I know a lot of people her and some are Loggers, some farmer/carpenters, building inspectors, Famous Authors (Burton Hersh just five houses away) Artists, in wrought iron, Wood, metal, famous musicians from the world top; 20 pianists and so on. Two of my good friends you have a full time logger and the other an excavator both Suma Cum Laude as is my daughter UNH .

That really proves Romney is as his campaign claims the greatest Patriot of the times

You know I do not post with out checking in to a subject.

It was a taxing mentally tiring and challenging task to go off on the intertwined subjects and bounce back and forth from Liberal to Conservative and then to middle and the extreme let and extreme right.

A thread start is to me even more demanding of fact checking. When a tounge in cheek one like this thread it is critical.

I thought it would be entertaining and make us look back and forth and see the ludicrous reality of the political talking points.
On this note the Reps are way way out past any kind of reality.

STOP READING OR LISTENING TO FOX FOR JUST TWO WEEKS.

that really proves he is tghe greatest Patriot of the times using rockets indiscrimitally

Do you really want to continue making personal derogatory sremarks about my thought and reading ability?
I like you but I can be nasty when someone attacks my honesty, integrity, ethics, knowledge base, and my desire for reasoned discussion.

how to find the truth. after shutting fox off

ABC Oz usually good but some times like with Georgia and South Ossetia they follow the zeitgeist of the major media even if they know it is wrong. All the majors except RT and Al Jazeera showed the same vids and pictures of nasty Russia and South Ossetia. The two of them both found numerous US citizens in both countries. their amateur videos tell the opposite story to be the real truth.

the shots and vids shown by the rest of the major media were of "The sick SO attack on the public building in Georgia."

In fact, pictures and videos provided by vacationing Americans in both countries told a different story. SO did not even have any, zero, zilch, of the rockets that caused the damage that an amateur was able to document one as dud .
Georgia did have many of them.

By the way ........................

The building demolished and on fire that all , all the major media showed to help portray the OS folks as the aggressors was actually the house of parliament or such in South Ossetia. Even in the major news vids if you knew there are clips that show the difference.

Georgia wanted to annex if not the whole of SO at least the corner that the big oil pipeline was to go through. If you take a country with a "permanently elected " for life leader and he is offered a big money opportunity, he/she will stop at nothing to acquire by force if needed land aND MORE TO CONTROL all the ground it pass over.

Leaders who take control by force and or hold it by force or threat of force will always be unwilling to share even 5% of the total income for said line with anyone including a whole county. And they are just as unwilling to share any of it with their citizens. Libya, Jordan, Syria, Cuba and so on.


Awww he11 this was suppposed to be a fun thread.

Back hurts really bad right now and it is going right up to my neck and the twisted vertebrae in my neck.

[BrianY]

Waddie -

We're getting rather far afield from what I believe the key message of the Scranton experience is and it's obvious that you and I see the matter of public employee compensation differently, so I'd like to table that discussion if it's OK with you and attempt to refocus the discussionon the validity of the policy of tax cuts and spending cuts as a means to stimulate economic growth.

Scranton appears to be a perfect example of the failure of this approach. England is another. They implemented a severe austerity plan which thus far has done nothing to reverse the decline in their economy.

Despite these real-world examples, the Republicans and Tea Party folks continue to push for these policies and they continue to insist that this approach will presult in economic growth. My question is why do they do so when there is clear evidence that they don't work?

[ChaseKenyon]

I applaud you all !!!!!

It took less than I actually expected in terms of total posts.

We had some branches to the thread topic but about things that can be (I did not say they are but we all need to parse what all the politicians say very carefully, can be is not are) affected or can affect the main topic.

The Scranton situation is a perfect situation to show the tea party and ryan and romney and McConnell and son plan has been tested and it fails miserably over and over and now even when it is administered by DEMs and
more DEMs. They plan if you study Scranton other cities with the same problem and how that tactic/plan did not work becomes self evident. The Scranton examples also teach us why it does not work and never can work.

Even Henry Ford knew that if you want to sell your product you have to sell it for more than it costs to build it. Now with a consumption economy which is not the supply side econ that the GOP is claiming as real, you have to have buyers that can afford the product you make. So to have long term growth people making products have to be able to afford them. So he payed the highest wages ever heard of at the time so every one of his employees could afford the product. And as he so astutely realized other manufacturers had to follow suit and raise the wages they payed employees.

We still have an economy based on consumption. saving money and or giving tax breaks to the wealthy is not going to ever create jobs. What is the total consumption they can have of goods and services? What percentage of their annual salary and/or financial gain is non disposable income or gain. To expect breaks for them and increases on the poor in just income taxes reduces the consumption capability of those people in the lower tax brackets. That of course forces even more of them into poverty and having a tax return of 0.0 $. In fact it pushes them into earned income credits. The far right claims it is unfair that the bottom 44% of Amercians as Romney's staff call us, pay no taxes. Well giving more back to the top 2% and taking more from the bottom in raised taxes to compensate just pushes that number up to a higher percentage. That means the top will have to take up an even greater % of the total Gov't revenue.

Creating jobs in a down market with a crushed consumption require a seed of some kind since you need to have a large percentage of a population with income beyond EIC and Food Stamps. You need yeast and fuel to make beer. No starches of the right kind and it fails. To get people back to work cannot be done from the supply side. We need to have gov't seed the yeast in temporary jobs that give enough disposable income to get people back to consumers of goods. We need to have more consumption to create and keep long term employment.


I hope that we can continue to have open discussion on the grave current topics. We can offer each of our experience and knowledge.
The thing that I consider the greatest of all is that we together if we seek to understand and find the facts with out blatant bias then we have the manpower search and find the truth of some much via the net. I we stop the partisan knee jerk attitudes we can search and find the truth of most of the crap going on. My ex partner yesterday posted no my daughter's facebook list that the unemployment would be half if the stupid dems and Obama would stop not letting the congress pass even one of the many jobs bills. He went on about how the dems have not come up with any jobs proposals so they need to stop preventing voting on all the jobs bills the reps have put in the "hopper".

I feel like I must be clairvoyant to have started this tread in advance.

I hereby pass the "talking stick" to whoever can think of the next topic especially on the state of our dysfunctional congress. I would suggest we use our many "on line internet-ers" to go after the sources of data as many levels deep as needed to get to valid untainted facts. Let us be "INFORMED" as Thomas Jefferson said.