20' Sooty Tern

[James McMullen]

...my wife and I will be delighted not to spend 1.5 hours each day rigging and derigging.

My typical times these days from spars stowed and rowing to all sail set is 90 seconds. If I hurry, I can cut ten or fifteen seconds off of that. Not exaggerating.

[Vernon]

Thanks Garth and James, easiest to use is what i'm after.
This helps to comfirm I made the right choice.

[Vernon]

I've decided to stick with the 6 strake design, as I spring battens on the boat they all seem to land near perfectly on the lap lines as drawn by Iain. Also, I've been on the web looking at a bunch of pictures and the planking just seems to 'look right' as drawn - my efforts are unlikely to result in any improvement. My only objection at first were some area's where there wasn't enough meat on 9mm material to get a full width lap, Iain shows leaving it overhanging a bit and then filleting in the rest to make a full width lap. So that's what I'm going to do, in the end these are underneath at the turn of the bilge anyway.

James managed to make it look good.




I also decided not to fiddle with clamping blocks, I grabbed a hole saw and just went at it.
Extra 2x4 vertical supports for the molds have been added as well, I left these until now so as not to get anything additional in the way as I shaped the keelson.




clamp up just a few and the rest spring through the lap lines and touch the molds on their own.






Them's some cockeyed pictures.

I didn't get any pics with more battens on, but I'm satisfied with the look.



6 sheets of 9mm 7 ply picked up, I went with meranti.

[James T]

Well this is exciting...first time on the Forum and all this good stuff about the Sooty Tern...my plans have just arrived for the Sooty Tern...but before I build that i have to finish the garden shed so I can get the stuff out of the garage...you know the story...never enough space...you will be pleased to know I will not be sending pictures of the garden shed...glad to see the "Can do" attitude...look forward to more james

[PeterSibley]

Vernon, what's the nominal width of the laps as drawn by Iain with the 9mm?

[James T]

Max, really enjoyed looking through the photos...inspiring...loved the colour scheme and the metal work...I was wondering what the weight of your lead ended centreboard was? How has it worked for you? Thanks for posting...

[jim_cricket]

Looking good Vernon! The holes in the molds for clamps are the way to go. I'm curious what the meranti is running you, and how do you like it? Does it compare favorably with Occume? I paid a fortune for 7 ply Shelman, and that's all gone now.
Cricket

[Vernon]

Well this is exciting...first time on the Forum and all this good stuff about the Sooty Tern...my plans have just arrived for the Sooty Tern...but before I build that i have to finish the garden shed so I can get the stuff out of the garage...you know the story...never enough space...you will be pleased to know I will not be sending pictures of the garden shed...glad to see the "Can do" attitude...look forward to more james

Welcome to the Forum James T! I plan to post about 8 million pictures of the build, so you can watch me make a bunch of mistakes first.

When you get started, think about starting a build thread here. There are lots of knowledgable folks about to help where needed. Meanwhile be sure to check out the thread on the first Sooty Tern over in the Design/Plans section.

http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...ighlight=sooty

And for goodness sakes, don't ask James M what he thinks about his ST.

[Vernon]

Vernon, what's the nominal width of the laps as drawn by Iain with the 9mm?

3/4" - Like your build, this one could be built with 6mm in one of the mahoganies (it'd be on the light side), but you'd need 9mm if built in occume.

The ideal would be 7 or 8 mm, but good luck finding that. I'm going with meranti, but its actually a reasonably light ply and I'm not at all concerned with a few extra pounds on the boat.

[Vernon]

Looking good Vernon! The holes in the molds for clamps are the way to go. I'm curious what the meranti is running you, and how do you like it? Does it compare favorably with Occume? I paid a fortune for 7 ply Shelman, and that's all gone now.
Cricket

I go to a very good shop about 10 miles from me and work with whatever's on the shelf.
All of these are nice plys. -5% discount for 6-10 sheets.

Doug Fir 44$
Meranti or Keruing Hydrotek (7ply) $60
Meranti or Keruing Aquatek (5ply) $54
Joubert Okoume $89

Mine is the Meranti Hydrotek at $60 ($57)
It's every bit as nice as the Okoume but will finish darker if bright and weigh a bit more - but quite a bit less than the Keruing. On the other hand, it's more durable and stronger than Okoume.

[PeterSibley]

All those prices are CHEAP!!! Really really 70% off cheap by our standard here in Oz .

[Max F]

Max, really enjoyed looking through the photos...inspiring...loved the colour scheme and the metal work...I was wondering what the weight of your lead ended centreboard was? How has it worked for you? Thanks for posting...
Hi James T
That was 18kg lead. I have no comparison how LJS would sail without. I guess it does affects the uprighting momentum very little but at least it´s weight at the very right place and it feels good.
There are some pros and cons for ballasted centerboards.
If you let go the rope to get it down it will crash down like a slegehammer.
In the case of capsizing and turteling the same could happen in the reverse.
A heavy centerboard slamming into its case with brutal force , probably doing some damage.
I have a line securing mine against it when I sail in deep water and windy conditions.
Herreshoff and I think Oughtred to went away from heavy centerboards for these reasons.
I did it because I liked the idea to build one and I was in no hurry to get the boat finished.
If I would building it again I would skip the lead and use glased wood only.
Max

[James McMullen]

I prefer unballasted centerboards. It's very handy to have on that will self-stow when you sail right up to a beach.

[Max F]

Vernon
Is that meranti ply suitable for boatbuilding?
I don´t ask about the species but the quality of the sheets! Saving some Dollars that way can become very expensive when it starts to delaminate!!!
I ´ve seen to much poor plywood to take a risk here.
Max

[Max F]

Your up late Crab Slayer! Very early here in Dunkeldeutschland though.
I beach the same with my ballasted cb, so that is no issue.
Max

[James T]

Wow, Vernon...are you in hyperdrive? Putting that boat together in great time...stunned by the prices of the ply...try about $130 for Joubert 9mm Occume 8x4...or $ 113 for regular 1088...north of the border...time for me to think about a trip south...although still in the planning stage it is really helpful to see the details of the boat coming together in picture and words...a big thanks to James M for directing me to the Forum...but I'm not sure I can promise not to ask him about his ST...interesting about the centreboard...hum lots to think about...oh and obviously time to find a crying chair for the shop...James

[Vernon]

Vernon
Is that meranti ply suitable for boatbuilding?
I don´t ask about the species but the quality of the sheets! Saving some Dollars that way can become very expensive when it starts to delaminate!!!
I ´ve seen to much poor plywood to take a risk here.
Max

Yes, I've found what's available here to be of excellent quality. This batch is better yet than what I did my canoe with, better than the quality of the Joubert just by looking at it. It's a bs1088 rated marine ply for whatever that's worth, it's about the only standard you can look for here. I've never had any delamination nor found any voids in it. Not saving any dollars here, I'm using a marine 7 ply with a durable rating, though somewhat soft surface and then putting on a single coat of epoxy primer because I believe the extra work and epoxy result in a superior product than painted okuome and I accept the small weight penalty. Understanding that others may disagree, but based on what I looked at while I was there (highly respectable dealer that I've never had a qualms at all in dealing with btw), there is no way I'd change my mind.

Don't get me wrong, I don't want to sound like I know everything and thanks for asking, but I have a very high degree of confidence in the material and the folks standing behind it.
Vern

eta - Max, you're boat looks like it has the hatches as designed. There has been some interesting discussion on the topic on Peter's thread. I was planning to build the hatches as drawn because I'm not sure about the look of the plastic ones. Do you find them suitably watertight for the end storage/buoyancy tanks??

[Vernon]

Wow, Vernon...are you in hyperdrive? Putting that boat together in great time...stunned by the prices of the ply...try about $130 for Joubert 9mm Occume 8x4...or $ 113 for regular 1088...north of the border...time for me to think about a trip south...although still in the planning stage it is really helpful to see the details of the boat coming together in picture and words...a big thanks to James M for directing me to the Forum...but I'm not sure I can promise not to ask him about his ST...interesting about the centreboard...hum lots to think about...oh and obviously time to find a crying chair for the shop...James

Ouch, on what you an Peter have to pay. I would be building this traditionally for way less money if that were the case here.

[James McMullen]

I think that Meranti Hydrotek is totally suitable. . . though I still think I'd still prefer the weight advantage of okoume for myself. But I don't think you should have any fears at all that you made a wrong choice, Vernon.

[Vernon]

I prefer unballasted centerboards. It's very handy to have on that will self-stow when you sail right up to a beach.

My number 1 on this style of boat. Most of the places on the shores of Lake Erie that I would be visiting would have sandy beaches. This feature and reasonable rowing were the keys to my choice.

[Vernon]

I think that Meranti Hydrotek is totally suitable. . . though I still think I'd still prefer the weight advantage of okoume for myself. But I don't think you should have any fears at all that you made a wrong choice, Vernon.

Oh, no issues at all with the Hydrotek although I would absolutely expect that a sallor looking for top performance would go with okoume and lighter. Me, I'm just gonna be tickled the first time I can get going thata way!

[Max F]

By fooling around in very light winds I had LJS once floodet nearly up to top of the centeboardcase.
It felt like ages to bail all that water out again. In real life it was about 10 minutes.
After that there was about 0.1 liter inside the hatches.
At that time I had some 3mm neopren ruber gaskets with little preasure when I locked them.
Now I have changed to 6mm gaskets and think they are 100% waterproof.

LJS stays in the water all season. for that reason I used heavier and more durable sapelle ply from bruinzeel .
Long John Silver is very light and fast!
Very often folks from other boats are very impressed by our speed.
That feels good!

[James McMullen]

Very often folks from other boats are very impressed by our speed.
That feels good!

That is a very good feeling, isn't it? Even though I would still love Rowan if only for her seaworthiness and handiness under both sail and oars, it is also quite gratifying to always be one of the faster boats in the fleet. Long and light weight has some great advantages.

[Vernon]

I've barely started and you guys are making want to finish with such talk.
I have to work 40-50hrs a week too, so this is gonna take awhile.
It's finally cooling off for a few good canoeing days too.

[PeterSibley]

By fooling around in very light winds I had LJS once floodet nearly up to top of the centeboardcase.
It felt like ages to bail all that water out again. In real life it was about 10 minutes.
After that there was about 0.1 liter inside the hatches.
At that time I had some 3mm neopren ruber gaskets with little preasure when I locked them.
Now I have changed to 6mm gaskets and think they are 100% waterproof.

LJS stays in the water all season. for that reason I used heavier and more durable sapelle ply from bruinzeel .
Long John Silver is very light and fast!
Very often folks from other boats are very impressed by our speed.
That feels good!

Max , are there any photos of those hatches around ?

[Max F]

Peter there are some at http://www.flickr.com/photos/seaandshore/ in the set "New hardware for Long John Silver" that show my hatches.
they are shown too in Iain Oughtreds book.
Vernon take your time to keep building fun...

[PeterSibley]

Thanks Max ... I'll have a look.

[PeterSibley]

Max, are the gaskets solid foam or tube?

[Vernon]

I was hoping you would catch the exchange on the hatches Peter. Posts 48 and 53 had a few of Max's pics with the hatches that looked just like what's on the plans and I thought in the book too. It's one of the details I had planned but having no experience could not recommend. The report of what worked for Max makes it an easier choice for me.

[PeterSibley]

It looks like a simple construction and I imagine most types of compressible gasket would work but I'm interested in Max's ...it worked !

[timo4352]

Hey Vernon
Are you getting your plywood from Homestead Hardwoods? I'm guessing by your location that you are?
For my next build I was planning to go with them.
Have you had a good experience dealing with them? It'll be a few hours drive for me, so just wondering...

[Vernon]

Hey Vernon
Are you getting your plywood from Homestead Hardwoods? I'm guessing by your location that you are?
For my next build I was planning to go with them.
Have you had a good experience dealing with them? It'll be a few hours drive for me, so just wondering...

Yes Homestead Hardwoods over in Vickery.
http://www.homesteadhardwoods.com/
I've had good experience with them, although them might be 'he'. In the dozen times I've been out there I've dealt with the same guy every time.

[Vernon]

It looks like a simple construction and I imagine most types of compressible gasket would work but I'm interested in Max's ...it worked !

I know, simple, boaty looking, wood, works - that's right in my wheelhouse there.

[Vernon]

Change in the ole work schedule.
I now work 9a-8p Tue, Wed, Fri, Sat - in theory, the reality is that I work any day needed and typically don't get out at 8p. 3 days off is cool though.
The crappy schedule is actually a good boat building schedule, I can get out a set of plank blanks on Thursday and install a pair on the 'weekend'.
Or it'll give me a weekday to go canoeing without a crowd on the lake on the cool days.

UPS was here today with a delivery from Jamestown, very quick service - it's the first I've dealt with them.

I got a can of 404 filler, 206 slow hardener (the 205 fast hardener was making me work too hard in the heat), and some 14g 7/8" bronze ring shank nails. I'll use the nails where I think fasteners are needed, likely on the plank ends and maybe on the garboard to keelson joint, although there is plenty of gluing surface there.




With the delivery, I'm ready to start planking.

I read with interest the discussion on Peters thread of the truss technique and I thought I'd try it.
I like spiling - it's a pleasant task and works very well for me, that's very likely how I'll finish.

But, I had the leftover battens from checking the planking layout and a bunch of scrap luaun ply laying around so I though I'd give it a try. I've yet to make a suitable spiling batten either.

Do any of the builders of the AT, CY, or ST have a preference on the spiling batten. I was guessing what would work for the whole boat would be 3/8" thick, curved 3-4", 6-7" in the center, and taper to 4" or so at the ends.

Anyway, I dug up my underlayment stapler and sure enough it was loaded with 3/4" staples.




Here's what I came up with.





I think the process is a bit fiddly and seems to take longer, it would be easier with lighter battens and using glue or smaller staples.

I had to fiddle quite a bit with the garboards on my last build, these I would expect to fit dead on so it might be an advantage for this set.
There are advantages to this method, but on balance I'm going to stick with spiling for the rest.

Tough to see what you're looking at, but the 1st set is glued up on the bench.
I'll do this for all the planks - spile, bring the batten to the bench, use it to gauge the rough shape, cut material about an inch over size, glue the blank - 12-1 scarphs, let it dry, then lay it out and cut it for the money. It seems to be what works best for me although I add an extra drying day in there.

[TerryLL]

Hey Vernon,

Glad to hear you found Jamestown to your liking. I've been dealing with those folks for 30+ years and they're the real deal. Hamilton Marine is a close second.

Terry

[PeterSibley]

Regarding the batten truss Vernon ,I'm watching and learning mate .

[jim_cricket]

Hey Vernon,

Glad to hear you found Jamestown to your liking. I've been dealing with those folks for 30+ years and they're the real deal. Hamilton Marine is a close second.

Terry

Likewise me, with Jamestown Distributors. I usually order one day, and the stuff is there the next morning. They have a Facebook page (insert ulterior motive here).
Sometimes Hamilton works better, if you need less than box quantity on some fasteners (like brz machine screws).
Cricket

[Max F]

Peter I use rectangle solid self adhesive foam tape for the gaskets. It is neoprenlike stuff we have in our shipyard.
Max

[PeterSibley]

Thanks Max, I'll look for something similar.

[Vernon]

Likewise me, with Jamestown Distributors. I usually order one day, and the stuff is there the next morning. They have a Facebook page (insert ulterior motive here).
Sometimes Hamilton works better, if you need less than box quantity on some fasteners (like brz machine screws).
Cricket

I had to click the link, congratulations on that - nice pic there btw.
Everybody click the link.

I bought way more nails than I needed, Jamestown sold by the pound.
Good to know Hamilton has lessor quantinties, I'll keep that in mind.

Also, I think it was Duncan that posted a coupon code link, I saved 12 bucks using it.
Thanks Duncan, or someone - been awhile, I don't remember for sure.


ETA - reading further I see Crickett posted the link to the Jamestown foto on his Mantinicus thread.
I thought I had the scoop.

[Vernon]

Feeling pretty good sitting here in my relatively clean boat shop, tippin up a cold one or three.
Work is done for the day and the garboards are on in pretty good order.

Not too many pics of progress, I was pretty busy, but here's one of the planks being planed to shape. The truss system worked really well, I cut about an 1/8th fat of the lines and then fitted. After horsing around awhile, I went back to the bench and planed them right down to the original lines. The only fitting required was to bevel the edge where the planks meet and to take off some of the material where the keelson and and inner stem marry. I had left this heavy in order to fit with the actual planking.

The garboats are about 9 1/2" at the widest and short of 17' long.



Hard to get decent pictues in my little boat shop with my cheap a-- camera.









This is just evidence that I did clean up the mess, just need to roll the equipment back into position.

[

[TerryLL]

Looking good Vernon. Those garboards look like a piece of cake compared to the monster gbds on the 4-plank Caledonia Yawl. My next build will definitely have narrow gbds.

I'd ditch those thin wood blocks you're using under the temporary fasteners. They don't provide very uniform clamping pressure and there's a good chance they'll get glued to the boat. I've been using UHMW blocks under the screws for the last several builds and they work pretty darn well. Nothing sticks to the stuff, and they can be cut so just a few threads of the screws are exposed, just enough to pull the laps together.



Available in various thicknesses from McMaster-Carr.

http://www.mcmaster.com/#

[Vernon]

Looking good Vernon. Those garboards look like a piece of cake compared to the monster gbds on the 4-plank Caledonia Yawl. My next build will definitely have narrow gbds.

I'd ditch those thin wood blocks you're using under the temporary fasteners. They don't provide very uniform clamping pressure and there's a good chance they'll get glued to the boat. I've been using UHMW blocks under the screws for the last several builds and they work pretty darn well. Nothing sticks to the stuff, and they can be cut so just a few threads of the screws are exposed, just enough to pull the laps together

Thanks Terry, I'm still hopeful I can do the rest of the planks with very few screws and just use the lap clamps. I'll be finding out real soon. If not, I may also try the batten method that Max mentioned to get sweet runs. Dunno yet, this is my second build and I find myself wanting to try different ways to do the same thing.
Vern

[Daniel Noyes]

I've decided to stick with the 6 strake design, as I spring battens on the boat they all seem to land near perfectly on the lap lines as drawn by Iain. Also, I've been on the web looking at a bunch of pictures and the planking just seems to 'look right' as drawn - my efforts are unlikely to result in any improvement. My only objection at first were some area's where there wasn't enough meat on 9mm material to get a full width lap, Iain shows leaving it overhanging a bit and then filleting in the rest to make a full width lap. So that's what I'm going to do, in the end these are underneath at the turn of the bilge anyway.

Thats just the issue I had with my marine ply build of a 100+ yr. old Newengland racing dory design, instead of using a super sized fillet I actually cut a narrow wedge shaped batten from a 20' piece of cedar and used it to make up the difference where the planks stand proud at the first and second knuckles, worked great.

[PeterSibley]

Thanks Terry, I'm still hopeful I can do the rest of the planks with very few screws and just use the lap clamps. I'll be finding out real soon. If not, I may also try the batten method that Max mentioned to get sweet runs. Dunno yet, this is my second build and I find myself wanting to try different ways to do the same thing.
Vern

I'll watch that with interest, I'm thinking much the same , a minimum of screws and the rest lap clamps.

[TerryLL]

... instead of using a super sized fillet I actually cut a narrow wedge shaped batten from a 20' piece of cedar and used it to make up the difference where the planks stand proud at the first and second knuckles, worked great.

Dan,

As I recall, your Alpha Beach is planked in 1/4-inch. Is that right?

So, in1/4-inch the laps are quite small and you left some overhang for fillets. But instead of fillets you glued in cedar strips behind the plank overhangs. Am I understanding this right?

Terry

[Daniel Noyes]

Yeah
for the #3 and sheer plank the wide laps are very prominent feature of the hull shape, there full plank width like a clinker lap, so a 1/4 inch lap would not do, I cut and shaped the cedar battens to take up the excess where the 1/4" plank over hung the plank below it, tapered to nothing a few ft. from the ends, then epoxied it in place and clench nailed through the batten, made for a light and incredibly ridgid plank land, also it was likely cheaper than gallons of epoxy and filler it would have taken to fill the void!

[TerryLL]

Yeah
for the #3 and sheer plank the wide laps are very prominent feature of the hull shape, there full plank width like a clinker lap, so a 1/4 inch lap would not do, I cut and shaped the cedar battens to take up the excess where the 1/4" plank over hung the plank below it, tapered to nothing a few ft. from the ends, then epoxied it in place and clench nailed through the batten, made for a light and incredibly ridgid plank land, also it was likely cheaper than gallons of epoxy and filler it would have taken to fill the void!

Sounds like a great solution when building in thin stock instead of using internal lap battens. I hadn't ever thought of doing it that way.

[PeterSibley]

Yeah
for the #3 and sheer plank the wide laps are very prominent feature of the hull shape, there full plank width like a clinker lap, so a 1/4 inch lap would not do, I cut and shaped the cedar battens to take up the excess where the 1/4" plank over hung the plank below it, tapered to nothing a few ft. from the ends, then epoxied it in place and clench nailed through the batten, made for a light and incredibly ridgid plank land, also it was likely cheaper than gallons of epoxy and filler it would have taken to fill the void!

How would you have gone gluing on a roughed out section of cedar then planing it to shape at the same time you plane the plank land ?

[Vernon]

Thats just the issue I had with my marine ply build of a 100+ yr. old Newengland racing dory design, instead of using a super sized fillet I actually cut a narrow wedge shaped batten from a 20' piece of cedar and used it to make up the difference where the planks stand proud at the first and second knuckles, worked great.

Nice boat, the planking layout really catches the eye - interesting.
Vern