Best wood hull paint

[mariner2k]

I'm sure this has been asked once or twice. In the past I've used kirby's. Good paint. Starts off well but evenually faded and chalked up a bit. Bonded very well. But it's time to do it again. Anything new and different, or is it back to Kirby's? Any suggestions or links would be appreciated.

[wizbang 13]

what boat, what material, what construction, what use, what expectations, what budget?

[mariner2k]

She's a 45' ketch, double planked, mahogany hull. Probably less movement than single carvel planking. I'm looking for a good enamel or something along the idea of, if not Easypoxy. Not really interested in two parts. I have used kirby's. Looked great for a while but faded and chalked after one season. May even check into rustoleum topside.

[Peter Malcolm Jardine]

Easypoxy and Brightsides are both good paints, and popular with wooden boat people.

I use two parts on the hull, and wouldn't use anything else now.

[pcford]

Easypoxy and Brightsides are both good paints, and popular with wooden boat people.

I use two parts on the hull, and wouldn't use anything else now.

I second the first part of PMJ's statement...both well respected paints.

Peter has evidently had good luck with two part paints. However, this is not not the case with others.

Syrene had good luck with Fine Paints of Europe. At least so far. Coverage was astounding; very easy to apply. However, if initial cost is the major consideration for you, this option might not be the one for you.

[landlocked sailor]

It's pretty unusual for Kirby's to have faded/chalked after one season; that has not been my experience at all. I would call George about this. He will surely have a solution. Rick

[John P Lebens]

I've been using "Fine Paints of Europe" enamels. I use their semi-gloss deck enamel which has limited availability. Hollandlac Brilliant is their gloss enamel.

http://www.finepaintsofeurope.com/hollandlac_info.aspx

From their web site: "Fine Paints of Europe coatings are manufactured in Holland by Wijzonol, the largest privately owned paint manufacturer in Europe. Wijzonol invented product specific tinting in 1975!" I have a Dutch friend from that town and he said the company has an excellent reputation. They have managed to compete with Akzo Nobel in their local market.

Used with a little Penetrol, it keeps a wet edge and levels beautifully. It is supposed to be really durable, but I have only a couple of years of experience. I decided to use it because of the recommendation of a local high-end painter. He's a perfectionist and loves the stuff. One of the Seattle Classic Yacht guys has used it on his hull and years later it looks like new paint. I have used it for decks, roofs and interior.

Yes, it is expensive, but compared with the cost of labor and potential for more durability, it's a minor consideration in my opinion. So what if you can save a few bucks a gallon when the paint is likely less than 5% of the cost of the job.

[pcford]

I've been using "Fine Paints of Europe" enamels. I use their semi-gloss deck enamel which has limited availability. Hollandlac Brilliant is their gloss enamel.

http://www.finepaintsofeurope.com/hollandlac_info.aspx

From their web site: "Fine Paints of Europe coatings are manufactured in Holland by Wijzonol, the largest privately owned paint manufacturer in Europe. Wijzonol invented product specific tinting in 1975!" I have a Dutch friend from that town and he said the company has an excellent reputation. They have managed to compete with Akzo Nobel in their local market.

Used with a little Penetrol, it keeps a wet edge and levels beautifully. It is supposed to be really durable, but I have only a couple of years of experience. I decided to use it because of the recommendation of a local high-end painter. He's a perfectionist and loves the stuff. One of the Seattle Classic Yacht guys has used it on his hull and years later it looks like new paint. I have used it for decks, roofs and interior.

Yes, it is expensive, but compared with the cost of labor and potential for more durability, it's a minor consideration in my opinion. So what if you can save a few bucks a gallon when the paint is likely less than 5% of the cost of the job.

\

I am in total agreement so far. We were able to put only one coat of paint on Syrene at Jensens. Now, normally this would mean a lot of flashing and the job would look far from done. However, one coat looks quite credible indeed. It is very easy handling...

There is another boat at Jensens that has had just one coat...and it also looks great. (though it had much more prep than Syrene.)

The stuff cost about $128 a "Euro-gallon." About 2.5 liters. I think your 5% is a generous estimate of the total cost of the paint in a refinishing project.

[Tom Freeman]

We'll repaint our topsides this Fall/Winter. I'm going to give Fine Paints of Europe some serious consideration.

[pcford]

We'll repaint our topsides this Fall/Winter. I'm going to give Fine Paints of Europe some serious consideration.

That sailboat over in the shed looks pretty good with one coat...also, my friend Gene Peterson has been using it on projects. Says 3 coats of Fine Paint varnish is like 5 of Epifanes.

[Tom Freeman]

Interesting. Tom is putting on a couple of coats of varnish for us this week. I may give him a call and talk about giving their varnish a try as well. Sorry for the minor thread hijack.

[pcford]

Interesting. Tom is putting on a couple of coats of varnish for us this week. I may give him a call and talk about giving their varnish a try as well. Sorry for the minor thread hijack.

No problem...for me at least...about a hijack...as I recall Tom and Lester both seemed pretty positive about Fine Paints...but all the guys have their preferences. I did not hear anything negative about the paint...it's not a miracle product...just darned good.

[FlyingCloud1937]

I am on season 5 with FPE, on the hull above the water line, and season 3 with interior paints.





Flying Cloud


As far as costs goes, I find in the end FPE is cheaper then any American paints that I have tried. One the coverage is about 2/3rds of FPE, for the same gallon,US paint. and Two American paint turns to concrete in about 3 years, as apposed to FPE(which is about 7 years).

I haven't tried their Varnish yet, bc I have 20 gallons back stock of my favorite Varnish. Until then I have no reason to change!


Lloyd

I'm sure this has been asked once or twice. In the past I've used kirby's. Good paint. Starts off well but evenually faded and chalked up a bit. Bonded very well. But it's time to do it again. Anything new and different, or is it back to Kirby's? Any suggestions or links would be appreciated.

[FlyingCloud1937]

I am on season 5 with FPE, on the hull above the water line, and season 3 with interior paints.





Flying Cloud


As far as costs goes, I find in the end FPE is cheaper then any American paints that I have tried. One the coverage is about 2/3rds of FPE, for the same gallon,US paint. and Two American paint turns to concrete in about 3 years, as apposed to FPE(which is about 7 years).

I haven't tried their Varnish yet, bc I have 20 gallons back stock of my favorite Varnish. Until then I have no reason to change!


Lloyd

Plus you can repair if you have some extra paint from the same can.

Before, during repair


After, repair 3rd Season

[mariner2k]

A friend of mine used Fine paint on his hull. The depth of Green and the shine are remarkable. A year later it still looks good. Also I agree that if it costs an extra 100.00 for paint, that is a small percentage of the total, especially considering the prep work involved. It's like complaining about the cost of a good brush.
And yes I was surprised at the Kirby's chalking and fading. I did like the look of it initially. Perhaps a call is in order.

[Dave Hadfield]

I used a dark green Kirby's as trim on Drake. Yes, it faded, and after 2 years was chalky and dull.

I love their Pine Tar though, and I wish I could ship their Red Lead here.

Dave

[John P Lebens]

What a great photo of the Flying Cloud hull!

Do you mind saying how you got that finish? (I suppose part of best paint is best prep) How did you prep? How did you apply? How many coats?

[wizbang 13]

There is a big difference for a vessel stored in a pac nw boat house and a vessel taking licks out in the sun.

[pcford]

There is a big difference for a vessel stored in a pac nw boat house and a vessel taking licks out in the sun.

Sure. Time will tell...but reports are good.

[FlyingCloud1937]

What a great photo of the Flying Cloud hull!

Do you mind saying how you got that finish? (I suppose part of best paint is best prep) How did you prep? How did you apply? How many coats?

Yes its all in the prep, the best material will give poor service if the prep is lacking. First job after haul out was to go over the hull marking all fasteners that showed any sign of of swelling/cracking/bleeding. Because the hull is Port Orford Cedar and iron nailed no bungs were used, which is the proper method for cedar.

All fillings were dugout, then liberal coats of rustreformer were applied to the nails.



Next up was to wood out the hull.



After wooding and inspection more nails were treated. Then all of the plank seams were reefed out. The seam compound was difficult to remove and leaving ragged edges to the planks. So a 4 inch worm drive fitted with a thin kerf blade was used. Which resulted in a superior job in half the time. The hull was fared with 4 man long boards 10 feet long X 4 inch paper.



The hull was then wetted out with Turpentine and Penitrol wet on wet until it could take no more, after 2 days curing time the first coat of primer, and again inspection, and more nails showed need for treating, as well as additional seam work.

Once the hull was fair and all nails and seams filled and about 6 coats of primer with long board fairing between coats, a fairing coat of west and 75% 410to 25% 409 filler, was scratched on and then more long board work.





After all of the hull was fared and another 3 to 4 coats of primer and longboard sessions and she was ready for final topcoat.



That's all there is to it. The primer and topcoat were sprayed.

Lloyd

[John P Lebens]

Why the infusion of turpentine and Penetrol before priming?

[wizbang 13]

Holy Guacamole !
That is a 100 percent job!!!

[carioca1232001]

Holy Guacamole !
That is a 100 percent job!!!

No doubt about that !

Flying Cloud 1937, the infusion of the hull with turps + penetrol seems rather unusual. Could you kindly share this technique with us ?

And what were the seems filled with after reefing them out and finishing the plank edges with a thin kerf-blade ?

Thanks

[John P Lebens]

Flying Cloud, I'm also interested in whether you used Fine Paints primer, and why you used a layer of epoxy late in the priming stages? Also, how many coats of Fine Paints enamel did you spray on?

[FlyingCloud1937]

No doubt about that !

Flying Cloud 1937, the infusion of the hull with turps + penetrol seems rather unusual. Could you kindly share this technique with us ?

And what were the seems filled with after reefing them out and finishing the plank edges with a thin kerf-blade ?

Thanks

The job was done 100%, the above only represents about 60%.

The other 40% was done the first 4 months after we purchased the boat. When we purchased the boat it was completely gutted and stripped inside and out. The previous owner decided to do a hull up restoration. But didn't get very far. 90% of the work he completed had to be ripped out and done right. He began using the boat as a floating workshop, complete with paint bench and storage, and a lumber rack on the port side. A ban saw in the middle, and a table saw up on the trunk cabin top. The one thing he did right is put all of the hardware in boxes ashore and didn't loose anything.

Our first job was to move all of the stuff off the boat.



Next up was to wood the interior hull side from shear to keel.



After wooding the interior hull side steam to stern, shear to keel. Again an infusion of turps and penetrol. The process goes as follows: First up is straight turps mixed with a biocide for oil based paints, then 25% turps and penetrol with biocide, then 100% penetrol with biocide until she won't take anymore. In total we put in 16 gallons of penetrol and another 4 gallons of turps, inside and out.

The reason, turps & biocide kill any trace of spores, as well as bring the wood to a healthy PH level. The penetrol fills the cellulose and stabilizes the wood, by displacing the amount of water wood can hold. It also makes a very good wood to paint interface, as well as coating all of the iron fasteners.

Next up was to prime and topcoat the interior hullside to the bilge stringer. from the bilge stringer to the keel only penetrol.



Next was removing all the floor boards. They were 3 inch t&g red cedar all blind nailed. So I sawed on each side of the floors, and then used a hammer and chisel to slit the remaining cedar at each nail. then i could easily pull the thousands of nails with out disturbing the floors and frames. After the floor boards were removed all plank faces, frames and floors were hard scraped, then turps & penetrol.





That made the job 100% including the outside hull work.

Lloyd

[FlyingCloud1937]

No doubt about that !

Flying Cloud 1937, the infusion of the hull with turps + penetrol seems rather unusual. Could you kindly share this technique with us ?

And what were the seems filled with after reefing them out and finishing the plank edges with a thin kerf-blade ?

Thanks

The seems and nails were filled with West's liquid G-Flex , and 410.

Flying Cloud, I'm also interested in whether you used Fine Paints primer, and why you used a layer of epoxy late in the priming stages? Also, how many coats of Fine Paints enamel did you spray on?

We used easypoxy before the West's fairing coat then Fine Paints primer before topcoat. The epoxy fairing coat was used in between primers to keep it sealed in, the fairing coat in almost micro thin after long boarding.

lloyd

[Woxbox]

That's a 200% job in my book.

[purri]

in spades!

[FlyingCloud1937]

Look how innocent my then Fiance looks. I love her...

But notice the file and scrapper in her hands.

This was about her first melt down after we purchased the boat, a year before we married. I was able to quickly counsel her into only thinking about the job at hand.....not the big picture.

Ya see, she's a long range planner... date of photo about 12-2002. I love her more today, I hopes she feels the same...I think so.

We have found away to have desert before dinner...but it's been worth it.

I have one more endearing story to tell about my wife, after we were married. It's a sea story, for another thread.

Lloyd

[johngsandusky]

That's lovely. She's very pretty, you're both lucky.

[pcford]

I was able to quickly counsel her into only thinking about the job at hand.....not the big picture.

For anyone involved in a large restoration...words to live by.

[seo]

With double-planked mahogany you could get a bottle-smooth, glassy glossy paint job if you want to spend the time and money. I think of Kirby paint as looking really good on an oak-planked schooner, where glossy just looks silly. Beyond that, it also depends on how you use the boat. If you cruise a lot, and go into docks frequented by fishing boats, and have kids with dinghies banging into the sides, then you want a paint that's easy to touch up while sitting in a dinghy in some cove. That would suggest to me that a two-part paint wouldn't be a good choice.
On the other hand,if you want to compete in the "who has the best paint job" contest in Newport Harbor, you probably want to take it to a yard that will take it inside, putty it smooth, and shoot it with Imron, or Awlgrip. There are many gradations in between those extremes.
I've had good luck with one-part urethanes like Brightside, but the hull had better be really smooth, because it's very glossy, and shows imperfections, particularly in dark colors. Flat white, or flat haze grey will hide a multitude of sins, dings, touch-ups, sags, etc. But flat paint picks up oil stains from the harbor.

[Bob Cleek]

Look how innocent my then Fiance looks. I love her...

But notice the file and scrapper in her hands.

This was about her first melt down after we purchased the boat, a year before we married. I was able to quickly counsel her into only thinking about the job at hand.....not the big picture.

Ya see, she's a long range planner... date of photo about 12-2002. I love her more today, I hopes she feels the same...I think so.

We have found away to have desert before dinner...but it's been worth it.

I have one more endearing story to tell about my wife, after we were married. It's a sea story, for another thread.

Lloyd

Ah, reminds me of one of the first times I almost divorced my first wife when i caught her filing a scraper on board the boat! Every one of all those little filings ends up turning instantly into a rust spot. She only made that mistake once and never worked on the boat again.

[Bob Cleek]

Forget all the "thanes," especially the two-parters. Same for epoxies. Just plain old high quality enamel. If Kirby's isn't to your liking (its quality is finestkind, but some prefer a higher gloss), plain old quality enamel is easier to work with, more forgiving, far easier to touch up, and far less expensive. It also lasts extremely well and is easily sanded for prep when recoating. 70% of a good varnish or paint job is surface preparation, 25% is application technique, 1% is the product you use, and 4% is just luck.

Fair the surface perfectly with glazing compound (now, it seems, called "surfacing putty") and make sure it is perfectly fair and smooth as a baby's bottom. Apply, preferably spray (no brush strokes to sand out), sufficient coats of undercoat, making sure the surface is perfectly white (or covered with whatever color you are using.) Gloss will not cover dark spots sufficiently! Then, apply gloss enamel to the perfectly smooth, completely white surface. You'll have to find someone who knows what they are doing to teach you how to condition your paint by adding thinners, penetrol, or whatever, to suit the environmental conditions on the day you are painting and to teach you how to properly use a brush. That's what separates the men from the boys, but it isn't something that can be explained in writing, so I'm not gonna try. (Nor am I going to get into yet another argument with the proponents of "rolling and tipping!")





A high filling, easy sanding marine-type undercoat designed for use on wood surfaces.
Provides a smooth base that allows Z-Spar Enamels to dry to a uniform gloss and appearance



The colors are resistant to fading and the white stays white. Z-Spar Enamel is a superb finish for all topside surfaces of wood, metal or fiberglass. #99 Solid Coat contains a very high loading of titanium dioxide for maximum hiding power

[beernd]

And another beautiful boat found loving and caring owners.

[Jay Greer]

I have many years of boat painting for dollars under my belt. But when we bought our H28 "Bright Star" nearly twelve years ago I found that the hull was splined and painted with LP. While I am not fully sold on a paint skin that does not breath, in all that time, there are no cracks in the seams and aside from periodic cleanings and buffing, plus changing the boot stripe from red to Navy Blue, the top sides are still pristine! This is amazing to me as I am accostomed to doing topsides at least every two seasons. Often every! So, at least it looks like I am free of having to swing a brush again this year as the boat still looks shiny!
Jay

[skaraborgcraft]

Proper job......what biocide did you use?

[mariner2k]

Ha, My boat well never look like the ones in Newport. who's got time for that? I can get it quite smooth however. Other than chipping paint it's pretty fair. On the Kirby's, the adhesion was fine. But if your shirt hit the boat during seaon two, you were wearing it. The penetrol, mineral spirits additive helped immensly. It was really hot when I painted the last boat and it evened out fairly well. Though I think I could have used a bit more. so far I'm leaning toward an oil based enamel, but there is a local trumpy with petit easypoxy on her and she looks great...and I'd be willing to bet that those hulls flex more than a double planker.

[Bob Cleek]

I have many years of boat painting for dollars under my belt. But when we bought our H28 "Bright Star" nearly twelve years ago I found that the hull was splined and painted with LP. While I am not fully sold on a paint skin that does not breath, in all that time, there are no cracks in the seams and aside from periodic cleanings and buffing, plus changing the boot stripe from red to Navy Blue, the top sides are still pristine! This is amazing to me as I am accostomed to doing topsides at least every two seasons. Often every! So, at least it looks like I am free of having to swing a brush again this year as the boat still looks shiny!
Jay

The operative word here is "splined." On a carvel planked hull that moves, LPU seems to crack pretty predictably along the plank seams. Pretty amazing longevity, though. They invented the stuff to paint aluminum airplanes and the object was for it to really last. It does, but it don't move.

[Lew Barrett]

For the record, FPE (Fine Paints of Europe) lists most of their products as enamels, although they do import several types. Flying Cloud's paint job is indeed excellent, and I and others have remarked and noticed that for the several years she has ben painted with this product, but certainly the product itself is only one of the reasons why that is so.

I used Easypoxy for most of my jobs, always with good success, but probably would consider using the FPE line if I were doing another paint job, which I am not at the moment!

Jensen's endorsement means a lot to me.

[Peter Malcolm Jardine]

The operative word here is "splined." On a carvel planked hull that moves, LPU seems to crack pretty predictably along the plank seams. Pretty amazing longevity, though. They invented the stuff to paint aluminum airplanes and the object was for it to really last. It does, but it don't move.

Really? How do you account for the expansion and contraction of aluminum based on altitude for planes. The surfaces moves a LOT. That is exactly why paints like Imron are so successful on a lot of surfaces. The preparation is usually more than the amateur can bear, that's all.

That's why you get people recommending Latex paints. They're easy as hell to put on.... lousy for the boat, but easy to put on.

[John P Lebens]

Ah, reminds me of one of the first times I almost divorced my first wife when i caught her filing a scraper on board the boat! Every one of all those little filings ends up turning instantly into a rust spot. She only made that mistake once and never worked on the boat again.

Definite grounds for divorce! But you gave her a reprieve and only fired her from the job? Now that's a generous guy (Or maybe she told you what to do with your stinkin' scraper?)

[pcford]

Really? How do you account for the expansion and contraction of aluminum based on altitude for planes. The surfaces moves a LOT. That is exactly why paints like Imron are so successful on a lot of surfaces. The preparation is usually more than the amateur can bear, that's all.

That's why you get people recommending Latex paints. They're easy as hell to put on.... lousy for the boat, but easy to put on.

Peter, I believe that you have had good luck with an LPU paint application. Around here it is considered a no-no. There have been accounts of LPUs letting go and coming off in sheets. Of course you have to admit that wood moves much more than aluminum. You had good luck, but that is not always the case.

[Paul G.]

Really? How do you account for the expansion and contraction of aluminum based on altitude for planes. The surfaces moves a LOT. That is exactly why paints like Imron are so successful on a lot of surfaces. The preparation is usually more than the amateur can bear, that's all.

That's why you get people recommending Latex paints. They're easy as hell to put on.... lousy for the boat, but easy to put on.

The difficulty with paint discussions especially with generic types is that there are huge differences in quality and application skill and preparation. BUT I have found LPU to be flexible, certainly when I peel a skin of it of a plastic container it flexes and stretches as much as oil based paint. Oil based paint gets harder over time and it definitely cracks on seams, so perhaps the fact that you have to paint it 3 or four times more often compared to once for LPU hides the cracking factor.

LPU is so superior to enamel its just a joke to compare them. But it is a system and it requires far more attention to prep which is why its not used as much. (plus the price). I cant comment on how it works long term on a true carvel boat, but as long as the substrate was prepared correctly and the boat not subject to extreme dry/wet cycles- why wouldnt it be as successful or more so than enamel?

[Paul G.]

Peter, I believe that you have had good luck with an LPU paint application. Around here it is considered a no-no. There have been accounts of LPUs letting go and coming off in sheets. Of course you have to admit that wood moves much more than aluminum. You had good luck, but that is not always the case.

Sounds like a prep issue, sheets? Definitely a mismatch between primers and topcoats or a prep issue

[Peter Malcolm Jardine]

Peter, I believe that you have had good luck with an LPU paint application. Around here it is considered a no-no. There have been accounts of LPUs letting go and coming off in sheets. Of course you have to admit that wood moves much more than aluminum. You had good luck, but that is not always the case.

Pat, I think that whoever had the paint come off in sheets had a severe case of poor preparation. Two part polyurethanes are particularly well know for adhesion characteristics, but there are specific primers to use. Like I said, most amateurs should not use two part paints. They don't investigate the preparation well enough to get a good result. A lot of high end yards use Awlgrip on wooden boats... all the time.

[seo]

I'm pretty sure (not dead certain) that the original linear polyurethane paint was Dupont Imron, and the original customer was International Harvester Truck division.

[Paul G.]

I used a LPU designed as for protective coating for highly corrosive environments, the manufacturer approves it for marine use and it was 5 litres for $120 same as single pot.

[seo]

The thing that puts me off LPU paint is that it's hard to repair dings and scrapes during the season. I live in a cool/foggy part of the world, and the dry sunny days, which some would say are ideal for paint maintenance, are in fact what God put on earth to keep sailors from drinking themselves to death.

[pcford]

Pat, I think that whoever had the paint come off in sheets had a severe case of poor preparation. Two part polyurethanes are particularly well know for adhesion characteristics, but there are specific primers to use. Like I said, most amateurs should not use two part paints. They don't investigate the preparation well enough to get a good result. A lot of high end yards use Awlgrip on wooden boats... all the time.

We are not talking about amateurs here; there have been spectacular failures with LPUs. Anyone considering using this variety of paint should do a through investigation. LPUs are great on plastic boats; I would assume they are fine on cold molded hulls. Otherwise beware. There was a spate of them done about 20 years ago here. The results were not promising.