Flintlock longrifle

[Tom Montgomery]

Has any one here ever built one?

If so: from scratch or kit?

[Phillip Allen]

Here I am... (pant pant)... sorry it took me so long

[Phillip Allen]

both...

[Glen Longino]

Give it up, Tom!
It ain't worth it!

[Tom Montgomery]

I am completely serious,

What kit do you recommend, Phillip?

What parts suppliers do you recommend?

[Phillip Allen]

okay, Tom... there is a very good one available but it ain't cheap... what caliber range?

I'll look and see if I can find it...

[PeterSibley]

I'm looking forward to seeing it too.

[Phillip Allen]

it seems that they've dropped it

give me some idea of what you think of when you think of a flintlock rifle

[Arizona Bay]

Almost as cool as a cannon

[Phillip Allen]

here's the sort of rifle I like, I don't knolw how to post the pic

http://www.trackofthewolf.com/Catego...INT-PARTS-LIST

[Tom Montgomery]

give me some idea of what you think of when you think of a flintlock rifle

No more than .45 Caliber.

42" barrel, swamped, tapered, and browned

curly maple stock

patch box (either wood, brass or iron)

slim

[Paul Pless]

what caliber range?

Come on, dude's from Louisville, he's got to build a Deckard. . .

[Phillip Allen]

here's another builder... I know him and he does a good job

http://www.avsia.com/tvm/southern.htm

[Phillip Allen]

No more than .45 Caliber.

42" barrel, swamped, tapered, and browned

curly maple stock

patch box (either wood, brass or iron)

slim

well, were're supposed to be able to work the wood here... swamped is the hardest to inlet... tapered is a bit easier

[Phillip Allen]

you can add a patch box to the first one... suggest a banana patch box...

I suggest you purchase a book 'Recreating the American Long Rifle' by George Shumway and ... I forgot the other guy's name for the moment... it will be worth it

[Phillip Allen]

the book is good. It's full of suggestions and the reasoning that goes into the decisions you'll have to make and it's encouraging

[Tom Montgomery]

Yep. I like those Southern Mountain types. They strike me as a "pure form" where the iron furniture enhances the wood.

The classic "Kentucky rifles" generally strike me as ostentatious. My guess is that the vast majority of the surviving examples were "masterpieces" that the gunsmith intended to impress his client.

[Phillip Allen]

here is the book... I did not shop for price so I reccomend you do

http://store.scurlockpublishing.com/...alexander.aspx

[Phillip Allen]

here's another one, just for fun... it'll make you want to have one of your own

http://kentuckylongrifles.com/html/north_carolina.html

I reccomend you scroll down and look at the other rifles... cover the keyboard

[Todd Bradshaw]

Yep. I like those Southern Mountain types. They strike me as a "pure form" where the iron furniture enhances the wood.

My old .45 cal. flintlock is pretty much like that, though it just has a straight-sided barrel.



The one thing I've noticed though is that with 65 grains of 3F, it kicks harder than my .50 Hawken with 75 grains of 2F and about as hard as my 45-70 Sharps. I think it's because it's thinned down and considerably lighter than they are. It obviously depends on what you want to shoot with it, but I gotta say that I'm really getting spoiled shooting targets with my .32 squirrel rifle. Dirt cheap to shoot with about 25 grains of 3F, easy on your shoulder and just pure fun.

[Tom Montgomery]

Come on, dude's from Louisville, he's got to build a Deckard. . .

I think, as a Louisvillian, I'd prefer to build a replica of a Humble: http://www.kentuckylongrifles.com/ht...le_rifles.html

[Phillip Allen]

contrary to what has been said of my interest in researching... the research into a particular 'school' is quite interesting

[PeterSibley]

Is .32 the smallest calibre available in flintlock rifle Phil?

[Phillip Allen]

Is .32 the smallest calibre available in flintlock rifle Phil?

I've seen a .28 but I caution against small calibers

they foul out much quicker and must be cleaned between shots... and... you'll look silly loading with a straightened out coat hanger

I shoot a .40 which means a 96 grain ball... if you intend to shoot squirrels (I tried it) then you'll need to use head shots only

I don't recall the weight of a .32 ball off hand but I think it is about the same as a .22 long rifle

[Tom Montgomery]

My old .45 cal. flintlock is pretty much like that, though it just has a straight-sided barrel.



The one thing I've noticed though is that with 65 grains of 3F, it kicks harder than my .50 Hawken with 75 grains of 2F and about as hard as my 45-70 Sharps. I think it's because it's thinned down and considerably lighter than they are. It obviously depends on what you want to shoot with it, but I gotta say that I'm really getting spoiled shooting targets with my .32 squirrel rifle. Dirt cheap to shoot with about 25 grains of 3F, easy on your shoulder and just pure fun.

I think that is a beautiful rifle. Where did you get it, Todd?

My ideal is along the same lines. I imagine a pewter or bone nose cap and a silver crescent moon and star on the cheek

[Chip-skiff]

What do you want to do with it?

Flintlock, flashy wood and ornate hardware, hang it on the wall, shoot 2-3 times a year? A small caliber, fullstock flintlock would be ducky. Hell on squirrels and possums. You sit by the fire and knap flints. Cuss when it misfires (frequently.) Good for starting wildfires in dry conditions.

If you want to hunt deer or other large game, build a .50+ caliber percussion rifle. I built a .50 Leman trade rifle, with Green River Rifleworks barrel and a Long Lock, all home-browned.



The stock was nicer than this, fiddleback maple, with an acid stain and a couple months of hand-rubbing. No metal fore-end. My boss on the Forest Service watershed crew was a riflemaker, and he guided me through the build. Got a nice mule deer buck the first fall. Can't post a photo, because it was stolen a couple years on.

If it's for decoration, whatever. If you want to hunt, build the proper tool for the game.

[Phillip Allen]

it's a labor of love... just like some of the boats we see down here from time to time... functional art

[Tom Montgomery]

What do you want to do with it?

Shoot at targets. Show up in Friendship, Indiana with some pride.

I would certainly never hunt anything larger than white tail deer.

[Phillip Allen]

Shoot at targets. Show up in Friendship, Indiana with some pride.

I would certainly never hunt anything larger than white tail deer.

.40-.55 cal and shoot it a lot
be sure to get a round ball angle of pitch barrel, use a bore guide and settle on a powder, patch combination and stick with it... you might as well have a sack over your head cause no one will notice you unless... either you are dangerous or you shoot well enough to worry the big boys

[Tom Montgomery]

it's a labor of love... just like some of the boats we see down here from time to time... functional art

Yep.

In fact I think sail boats vs power boats is the perfect analogy.

It is not about how efficiently you can travel from point A to point B. It is about an aesthetic and pleasure.

[Bob Quick]

Well let's see. I just finish number 72, a scaled 36 cal flintlock for a kid. I have been building flinters for about 20 years now and I am up making every thing except the wood screws. The little 36 had custom cast brass and a custom lock that I built. On the other hand, for parts you can't beat Muzzleloader's Builder's Supply. The best book is Peter Alexander's Recreating the American Long Rifle. A much better follow on to Shumway's book.
If I could figure put how to post pictures, I would.
As far as hunting goes, the last trip we took 4 deer with flintlocks ranging from 45 to 58. Including 2 taken by my grandsons (11 and 14). And we did it in western Washington. I can't see anything wrong with them (as long as you pay attention which you aught to be anyway).
Wouldn't shot a cap gun, real men need rifles with rocks in them.
I wish I posted more so I knew how to give more info. Send me an email and I'll send pictures.
Bob

[Chip-skiff]

Shoot at targets. Show up in Friendship, Indiana with some pride.

I would certainly never hunt anything larger than white tail deer.

For deer, go with .45 at least. And do a lot of practice shooting, so you can kill 'em clean with one shot. I never understood the reason for a full stock, but they seem to be part of the dream.

"Wouldn't shot a cap gun, real men need rifles with rocks in them." And you are a real man, stud. The rocks are in your head.

[Phillip Allen]

For deer, go with .45 at least. And do a lot of practice shooting, so you can kill 'em clean with one shot. I never understood the reason for a full stock, but they seem to be part of the dream.

"Wouldn't shot a cap gun, real men need rifles with rocks in them." And you are a real man, stud. The rocks are in your head.

there are people who shoot deer... and... there are people who shoot rifles... I shoot rifles

[Tom Montgomery]

I purchased a 3-disc DVD on building a flintlock longrifle by a grey beard named Ron Ehlert. It arrived yesterday.

I've never been a hunter. My shooting has been strictly targets and varmints. Small caliber rifles and shotguns.

I have never owned a firearm. I've used my grandfather's, my uncle's, my brother's, and my friend's.

[Phillip Allen]

I purchased a 3-disc DVD on building a flintlock longrifle by a grey beard named Ron Ehlert. It arrived yesterday.

I've never been a hunter. My shooting has been strictly targets and varmints. Small caliber rifles and shotguns.

Ehlert sounds vaguely familiar... but that doesn't mean much

If you are close enough to Friendship then fer gosh sakes go, but warm up at all the local matches you can first... it'll make a huge difference

[Phillip Allen]

So, why the two triggers? I understand one is called a "set trigger", but why bother with that?

some don't bother... the rear trigger sets the front to VERY light... too light to be safe otherwise

[Bob Quick]

Like smoking salmon, how do you keep it lit?
As far as functionality goes, I tell you what. We will pick an appropriate rainy day here in western Washington, go to the range, each of us put 20 bucks on the table and the last man standing takes the pot. I'll shoot my 50 mountain rifle and have my grand son can shoot his 54. We'll make a fun day of it for you. I'll even buy the beer afterwards.

[Tom Montgomery]

As far as functionality goes, I tell you what. We will pick an appropriate rainy day here in western Washington, go to the range, each of us put 20 bucks on the table and the last man standing takes the pot. I'll shoot my 50 mountain rifle and have my grand son can shoot his 54. We'll make a fun day of it for you. I'll even buy the beer afterwards.

My idea of fun!

[Phillip Allen]

Okay, thanks. It just seems rather unnecessary. Does the very light pull increase accuracy? Just trying to understand the purpose here.

the very nature of the mechanism of the old locks makes the triggers rather stiff... the set trigger is a work around and in that way increases accuracy for many

one may frequently find set triggers on modern rifles as well... especially in Europe

[purri]

IIRC the key is in the lock "time" meaning a fast and reliable ignition. Pan and frizzen design helps here too. A swamped barrel "hangs" better for the offhand shot. Maybe look at a French styled piece as they led the field in their day until the advent of a Swiss refugee to the UK (Durs Egg by name). Thereafter patent lockmakers took up the challenge. 45 ( 28bore?) is a nice round figure for bore size.

[Phillip Allen]

IIRC the key is in the lock "time" meaning a fast and reliable ignition. Pan and frizzen design helps here too. A swamped barrel "hangs" better for the offhand shot. Maybe look at a French styled piece as they led the field in their day until the advent of a Swiss refugee to the UK (Durs Egg by name). Thereafter patent lockmakers took up the challenge. 45 ( 28bore?) is a nice round figure for bore size.

I used a Durs Egg on my .40

a .45 is more like a 55 bore... 28 bore is more like .54 or a little larger

[Tom Montgomery]

the very nature of the mechanism of the old locks makes the triggers rather stiff... the set trigger is a work around and in that way increases accuracy

That is the theory. In fact original flintlocks sport both types of triggers, so evidently it was never a settled issue. Of course, the double set trigger survives as gunsmiths build faithful reproductions.

[Phillip Allen]

That is the theory. In fact original flintlocks sport both types of triggers, so evidently it was never a settled issue. Of course, the double set trigger survives as gunsmiths build faithful reproductions.

true enough...

[Phillip Allen]

some single triggers are also set triggers... they push forward to set them

[Bob Quick]

L&R locks has a really nice Durs Egg that I have used several times. Muzzleloader's Builder's Supply has some beautifully engraved (I no where close to that good) locks with both steel and bronze lock plates.
I can't stand set triggers altough my SIL and grandson love'em. I have be able to tune locks to just about any trigger pull you like(I prefer about a pound and a half) including down to ounces, so a set trigger seems redundant. To light a pull seems downright dangerous to me.
My favorite caliber is 40 but a nice round caliber for all uses is 50. Like most things it gets down to taste.
The one thing I tell people is don't be afraid to carve and engrave. It adds alot and really just takes practice. You probably wouldn't build a boat with out some artistic touch so why a rifle?
Off to bed, I look at this in the morning.

[Todd Bradshaw]

Tom, I had that rifle custom built by a gunsmith in Oakwood Illinois around 1976 or so. He specialized in what he called "the rifles they actually used, not the ones made to hang on the wall" and would say stuff like "Well Pilgrim, back in those days, the sunlight reflecting off of a nice shiny brass patchbox could get you killed". I picked out the block of wood and hardware bits that I liked and he built it to fit me. I think the total price back then was something like $650, once he got it done. I picked a wrought-iron trigger guard, hammered out by a blacksmith, rather than a casting, which some folks find too primitive for their taste, but I like it.

Making powder horns is also pretty fun and cheap entertainment for folks that like to build stuff, and the sky is the limit when it comes to decorating them. Some of the guys doing scrimshaw on them do amazing work, but even a simple one is a good project.

[Tom Montgomery]

Tom, I had that rifle custom built by a gunsmith in Oakwood Illinois around 1976 or so. He specialized in what he called "the rifles they actually used, not the ones made to hang on the wall" and would say stuff like "Well Pilgrim, back in those days, the sunlight reflecting off of a nice shiny brass patchbox could get you killed."

From my study that is correct. As I posted earlier, I suspect the majority of surviving "Kentucky rifles" were show pieces from the git go and (relatively) lightly used, prized, and consequently babied. My guess is the typical longrifle of the day got used up and then discarded or cannibalized for parts. Think about it. Few trade guns exist today despite the fact that thousands were distributed among the Native Americans.

[Phillip Allen]

I don't think I agree on the idea that 'fancy' rifles were not carried commonly. As to the 'shinny' brass patch box... you may have noticed that brass takes on a brown patina as soon as it comes into contact with black powder fouling

[Mrleft8]

Curly Maple is awful heavy. I sent Chuck Phillips a piece to do this exact same thing (Build a long rifle) a few months before he died. We discussed the weight VS. visual appeal issue, and I gathered that it was his grandson, or nephew who really wanted the curly Maple..... We both agreed that curly Walnut (Not Walnut crotch) would be the best of both worlds. The light(er) weight, and superior shock absorption/resistance of Walnut, with the wild visual appeal of the curly wood.
One of the important things that he stressed to me, was how the grain ran at an ever so slight diagonal to the fore-stock, so that the weak point of the whole thing, the area just behind the trigger guard, was not so weak....

[Phillip Allen]

Curly Maple is awful heavy. I sent Chuck Phillips a piece to do this exact same thing (Build a long rifle) a few months before he died. We discussed the weight VS. visual appeal issue, and I gathered that it was his grandson, or nephew who really wanted the curly Maple..... We both agreed that curly Walnut (Not Walnut crotch) would be the best of both worlds. The light(er) weight, and superior shock absorption/resistance of Walnut, with the wild visual appeal of the curly wood.
One of the important things that he stressed to me, was how the grain ran at an ever so slight diagonal to the fore-stock, so that the weak point of the whole thing, the area just behind the trigger guard, was not so weak....

Doug... when finished, there ain't much wood left so I don't consider the weight important... just a couple of ounces