Boating tragedy in Long Island Sound

[Norman Bernstein]

If you owned a 34' Silverton power boat (yeah, I know, nobody here would), would you stuff it with 27 passengers, at 10:30 at night?

Three people were pulled out of New York's Long Island Sound overnight after a yacht capsized on the Fourth of July, and 24 others were rescued, police said.Nassau County Deputy Inspector Kenneth Lack said the three bodies were recovered from the water near Oyster Bay after a long overnight search.

The 24 survivors were pulled from the water around 11 p.m. ET Wednesday, about an hour after the 34-foot Silverton boat capsized, the U.S. Coast Guard said. Owners of private boats dragged people into their vessels until crews from law enforcement agencies and fire departments arrived, according to local reports.

Lack said some but not all passengers were wearing life jackets. He said weather may have played a factor or a wake from another vessel may have caused the boat to capsize.Newsday reported that the 27 people on board were watching the Fourth of July fireworks.

A boater told Newsday he saw the yacht turn right and then tip over after it was hit by a wake. "It was like in slow motion," said Sammy Balasso of Oyster Bay. "All of a sudden, a lot of bodies were in the water."
His nephew, 15-year-old Frankie Barbone of Bayview, said the waves almost came up over the yacht.

Balasso said he put the spotlight of his 38-foot speedboard on the Silverton and then threw all the life jackets he had with him into the water. He said he rescued 20 people who were later taken to the shore in police boats.

Nassau County Deputy Inspector Kenneth Lack told Newsday that most of the people rescued were taken to hospitals for observation but that one person was in critical condition.

Based on the report, it appears that the problem was compounded by a large wake from another boat.... the already-compromised Silverton was hit by the wake.

I see this kind of thing periodically, even at my own marina; overloaded powerboats with inexperienced operators, and other boats throwing wakes way closer to 'no wake' zones than would be permitted, if the harbor patrol was present. The 4th of July is especially dangerous, since every yahoo is going to take their boat out to get closer to the fireworks. It's one of many reasons why I NEVER take my boat close to any place which is overcrowded with boats... a bad experience at the RI Air Show, maybe 20 years ago, cured me of that insanity.

[Mrleft8]

Yup.... Happens every year around this time.....

[S.V. Airlie]

I find going out on the july 4th weekend no fun and absolutely nuts out there.hamburg Cove has gone from a nice usually quiet harbor even into the 70's to one blasting their radios, drinking not one or two beers but a friggin case.used to have a mooring there with the name of the boat as well as mine. Just try to get someone off of it if you show up.it's amazing how rude many of the freeloaders are.We haven't had an accident reported yet on the CT River. Perhaps, even though the permit given for passing a boater safety course has had some slight effect.

[nedL]

I heard about that this morning. I'm suprised the Silverton stayed upright that long. (Not at all meant as a critisism of the Silverton.) That was probably a good three times the number of people that should have been aboard. Tragic.

[chuckt]

So that would be about 3 to 4000 excess pounds on top of the boat above center of gravity. People are such idiots.

[Rich Jones]

Anyone know the person limit on that vessel? Certainly not 27. To add to the tragedy, the three dead were just kids. The boat had a fly-bridge (which was no-doubt crowded with people), so that just added to the stability problem.
The owner of the vessel will have to answer some very harsh questions from the Coast Guard.

I spent the 4th of July sitting on my brother's dock on Lake George, N.Y. Total bedlam out there on the water. Jet-skis, power boats, water-skiers. We had the sense to leave his boat in the slip and just enjoy the fine weather.

[David W Pratt]

Hasn't the CG just raised the weight per person they use for calculating capacity?

[Norman Bernstein]

The owner of the vessel will have to answer some very harsh questions from the Coast Guard.

For sure, although I'm not certain just how much legal liability the vessel's owner/operator may be subject to.

I'm pretty sure that his insurance isn't going to pay off.

I spent the 4th of July sitting on my brother's dock on Lake George, N.Y. Total bedlam out there on the water. Jet-skis, power boats, water-skiers. We had the sense to leave his boat in the slip and just enjoy the fine weather.

It's the smart thing to do. 20 years ago, or more, I had an awful experience near the RI Air Show; we were properly anchored, when some idiot in a small sloop decided to drop anchor barely 20 yeards in front of us.... right on top of our own anchor. He ended up broadside to my bow, where my pulpit smashed his dodger to junk. I let out all of my anchor line, in an effort to give him the opportunity to get free.... but he was incompetent. Eventually, I had to tie a fender onto the end of my anchor line and temporarily abandon it, until he could get 'unwrapped'...... and then had to retrieve 250 feet of anchor line, by hand... it took all my strength (no windlass, on that boat).

Since then, I NEVER go where there is likely to be a crowd of boats; I skip all those sorts of events, such as the air show, the America's Cup races near Newport, etc.... too many idiots, too much danger. I was even threatened once, while at anchor, by a raft of Coast Guard sloops in Block Island, which started dragging down on my anchored position.... with no anchor watch aboard the raft! I was alone on my boat.... the only thing that saved me was when I used my dinghy to set my secondary anchor at a 45 degree angle, and then hauled in on it, thereby pulling my out of the path of the dragging raft of sloops. As it turned out, a couple of the cadets returned to the raft, and used the engine of one boat to stabilize things... and these were Coat Guard cadets... sheeesh!

[Figment]

My dad had a Luhrs 34 (same hull) for a while. 4 bodies up on the flybridge made a big change in the roll of the boat.
Full vs. half-empty fuel tank (400 gallons IIRC) made an even bigger change, and lots of people are leaving the tanks low these days.

but TWENTY SEVEN people on board? Really, that sounds like every available bit of deckspace was taken. Crazy.

[Rich Jones]

Hasn't the CG just raised the weight per person they use for calculating capacity?

I believe that was raised after a boating accident on Lake George a few years ago. Twenty elderly people drowned when a tour boat flipped over and sank much in the same way as yesterday's tragedy. The L.G. incident was also a result of un-approved alterations to the tour boat.

At least the L.G. tour boat was not overloaded by the standards of the time. Last night's tragedy was the result of sheer stupidity.

[skipper68]

How awful. How can you even control a crowd like that? We have had many instances with dum dums trying to drive over the anchor rode. Gotta get close to see the" big boat". I actually threatened to shoot a boat with the flare gun if it kept its course. We would have been on the rocks in seconds with the waves.Our idjit Canal Authority made it 45MPH in the canal. No one was told it was only in effect 200 ft from shore, otherwise it's 10MPH. Now the canal is dangerous.(And seriously eroding) We almost rode a wave onto land sideways, when a 30 footer came beside us, and then buried the throttles. Might be time to get the boating licenses in effect. I'd hate to see it, but anyone can register any size boat and cruise that day,with NO knowledge of maritime laws and rules.If the insurance on that boat wont cover the owner, he will lose everything. A guy here in Brewerton owns the marina he stopped to refuel at, and his daughter drowned. Not enough insurance coverage...

[ron ll]

The boat was evidently a 1984 34' Silverton similar to this. Imagine 27 people on this.

[Bob Adams]

I believe that was raised after a boating accident on Lake George a few years ago. Twenty elderly people drowned when a tour boat flipped over and sank much in the same way as yesterday's tragedy. The L.G. incident was also a result of un-approved alterations to the tour boat.

At least the L.G. tour boat was not overloaded by the standards of the time. Last night's tragedy was the result of sheer stupidity.

Actually, the changes were prompted by a water taxi accident in Baltimore Harbor.

http://www.insurancejournal.com/news...3/10/66299.htm

[oldsub86]

I wonder what number of people the Silverton was rated for?

We have a 21 foot Slickcraft that says it is rated for 10 people. That would certainly be standing room only.

We had an 18 foot Starcraft Holiday with the sleeper seats and an open area behind them that we used to fill with lawn chairs. I know we have had 10 people aboard it (some were children) and it never felt unsafe. Low center of gravity however as no flybridge etc. It might have sat a bit lower at rest and taken a bit more time to get on plane but it did not seem to make much difference to cruising speed etc.

Randy

[Peerie Maa]

I wonder what number of people the Silverton was rated for?

We have a 21 foot Slickcraft that says it is rated for 10 people. That would certainly be standing room only.

We had an 18 foot Starcraft Holiday with the sleeper seats and an open area behind them that we used to fill with lawn chairs. I know we have had 10 people aboard it (some were children) and it never felt unsafe. Low center of gravity however as no flybridge etc. It might have sat a bit lower at rest and taken a bit more time to get on plane but it did not seem to make much difference to cruising speed etc.

Randy

One issue with this sort of event is that the passengers tend to crowd towards the side with the spectacle. We have to assume a lot on the fly bridge, the rest down one side deck and in the side of the cockpit. Statutory stability rules require a calculation for the stability with passengers crowding to one side, and that is still with a craft that is not overloaded.

[bobbys]

My Q would be what parent thought it was a good idea to bring their kids on a Obviously overcrowded boat.

Now I know some people do not know all about boats or limits but is this not just common sense?

[Captain Intrepid]

Happens all the time, especially with houseboats.

[Rich Jones]

Not to get political, but I just read that Mitt Romney is out in his 29' SeaRay this afternoon in New Hampshire with more than 15 people on board, mostly children. Seems a bit un-advised. Of course, he's got a Coast Guard boat tailing him.

[Norman Bernstein]

Not to get political, but I just read that Mitt Romney is out in his 29' SeaRay this afternoon in New Hampshire with more than 15 people on board, mostly children. Seems a bit un-advised. Of course, he's got a Coast Guard boat tailing him.

Something tells me that we're going to see this in HuffPo tomorrow

[ccmanuals]

Not to get political, but I just read that Mitt Romney is out in his 29' SeaRay this afternoon in New Hampshire with more than 15 people on board, mostly children. Seems a bit un-advised. Of course, he's got a Coast Guard boat tailing him.

And Obama is having a BBQ for military and families at the WH.

[ccmanuals]

Actually, the changes were prompted by a water taxi accident in Baltimore Harbor.

http://www.insurancejournal.com/news...3/10/66299.htm

Jeez, I remember that. I was living South of Annapolis when this happened. Loved taking the water taxi to Fells Point, hang out. Back to the inner harbor then walk to Oriols stadium for the night game. Sure do miss living there.

[Peerie Maa]

My Q would be what parent thought it was a good idea to bring their kids on a Obviously overcrowded boat.

Now I know some people do not know all about boats or limits but is this not just common sense?

But it was built by a reputable builder. They have sold hundreds, they would not sell unsafe boats now would they?

Seems the EU Recreational Craft Directive is a better idea than some had originally thought.

[BrianW]

Something tells me that we're going to see this in HuffPo tomorrow

Then repeated here, as if we couldn't find it ourselves.

[bobbys]

Then repeated here, as if we couldn't find it ourselves.

.

Just the other day the libs here were going off about Mitt and Ann on a jetski, Now his boat is to big..

[Norman Bernstein]

Then repeated here, as if we couldn't find it ourselves.

Oh, come ON, Brian... If it's true, I'd say it's newsworthy... Especially on top of the long island tragedy.... And if he was actually overloaded, and the CG gave him a pass, I'd say it was a story.

[Bob Cleek]

I'm definitely a "government which governs least governs best" kind of guy, but I sometimes catch myself thinking that anybody who operates any sort of vessel with an engine on it needs to have taken a licensing test that covers basic seamanship and the rules of the road in detail. They don't let people without a license just slap down a credit card, buy a private airplane and take off in it, do they?

[hanleyclifford]

I hope the operator of that boat faces some criminal charges.

[Soundbounder]

The boat was evidently a 1984 34' Silverton similar to this. Imagine 27 people on this.

Silverton made a 34 Double Cabin also

http://www.buyandsellboats.com/boats/for-sale/299095/

[Phillip Allen]

while reading this thread, I thought of my motorcycle days... I never felt comfortable in a group of cars or motorcycles... I traveled alone and stayed clear of knots of traffic at all times

[Soundbounder]

The 4th of July is especially dangerous, since every yahoo is going to take their boat out to get closer to the fireworks. It's one of many reasons why I NEVER take my boat close to any place which is overcrowded with boats... a bad experience at the RI Air Show, maybe 20 years ago, cured me of that insanity.

Had a bad experience on Block Island one 4th of July. Now we always go there in September

[Robbie 2]

Christmas/New Years is the danger time here in The Bay of Islands NZ.
I was out with my brother Terry on his longliner one year it was quite late/dark when we began pulling in one 1000 hook line.It seemed very heay even with the automatic drum/winch so we thought we had a good catch. However, we did get some good fish but not as good as expected until when we had 3/4's of the line in it suddenly went light as ANOTHER BOAT THAT HAD BEEN HELPING ITSELF FROM THE OTHER END dropped the line and took off at speed and with no lights.
Terry never fished the Holidays time after that..........too many idiots.

[John Smith]

I'm guessing booze played a part.

[John Smith]

A bass boat went down near Navy Pier in Chicago yesterday. Not overloaded - only six aboard, but swamped by a larger boat going too fast, too close. All six were wearing pfds, and all six rescued uninjured.

Some of those larger boats make some very large wakes. I expect some rich idiot to not know what his wake does, although whoever sells him the boat should advise him of at least that. Professional skippers on tugs, however, I would expect better of, and I've seen damage done by tug wakes. Fortunately nothing fatal, but still.....

[ron ll]

I'm guessing booze played a part.

One report said alcohol wasn't involved. But with an overloaded boat, at night, with other crazy boaters all around you, probably top heavy with "the guys" on the flying bridge, and everyone on one side to see the fireworks, who needs to add booze. Wonder how many life jackets were on board.

[LeeG]

I'm guessing booze played a part.

one would think but maybe an instance of "stupid" is as good as drunk.

[Bob Adams]

The report I read said the boat was new to the owner. A case of tragic ignorance, me thinks.

[brad9798]

I would definitely OWN a BOAT like THAT!!!! Why not?!?!?!?!?!?!?

[pipefitter]

I'm definitely a "government which governs least governs best" kind of guy, but I sometimes catch myself thinking that anybody who operates any sort of vessel with an engine on it needs to have taken a licensing test that covers basic seamanship and the rules of the road in detail. They don't let people without a license just slap down a credit card, buy a private airplane and take off in it, do they?

You mean like they do for motor vehicles? Right of way laws are obviously soon forgotten, along with the safety portion with what we can witness on the roads these days.

I think they ought to have a common sense/spacial abilities test just for being allowed to wander past the perimeter of one's own home these days and have to retake it every time they have an offense.

When I was a lad, I was allowed to use our power boat solo. An 18 ft with a Johnson 60 on it. At the time, it was actually nice to display courtesy, slowing down to no wake as we passed other boats along with a friendly wave and a smile in the waterways. Nowadays they almost dare you to look at them cross when they abuse you on the water.

More proof that 'time-outs' don't work.

[The Bigfella]

I'm definitely a "government which governs least governs best" kind of guy, but I sometimes catch myself thinking that anybody who operates any sort of vessel with an engine on it needs to have taken a licensing test that covers basic seamanship and the rules of the road in detail. They don't let people without a license just slap down a credit card, buy a private airplane and take off in it, do they?

If the issue is safety, why do you include "with an engine on it"? Wasn't this boat anchored? Even if it wasn't, the issue is one of incompetence or negligence on the part of the skipper. An idiot with an overloaded canoe can kill just as many people.

[B_B]

...Wonder how many life jackets were on board.

That was my question; I guessed the answer would be about 6. What do I know...

[Phillip Allen]

I would definitely OWN a BOAT like THAT!!!! Why not?!?!?!?!?!?!?

I doubt that I would. I like sail boats

[Phillip Allen]

If the issue is safety, why do you include "with an engine on it"? Wasn't this boat anchored? Even if it wasn't, the issue is one of incompetence or negligence on the part of the skipper. An idiot with an overloaded canoe can kill just as many people.

I've never seen a conoe that would hold 27 people... maybe you would like to show us a picture of such a conoe and reconcile it with your post above

[MiddleAgesMan]

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/07/06/ny...agewanted=1&hp

The best article about it so far but it still leaves me wondering.

I saw a picture of the actual boat somewhere and it seems someone added a hard enclosure around the flying bridge. More weight up high, and probably not done with advice of a naval architect.

A witness to the event said the boat made a turn to the right then turned over. He didn't say which way it went over but I would assume to port. That heavy flybridge was probably full of people so even a moderate turn (at displacement speed) would put the boat in danger of a capsize. Add the wake from another boat from the wrong side and you have this disaster.

I don't know Coast Guard regs very well but I am thinking they do not cite a passenger limit on boats of this size. They should.

[B_B]

I've never seen a conoe that would hold 27 people... maybe you would like to show us a picture of such a conoe and reconcile it with your post above

Voyageur Canoes, those on the Great Lakes, were 36' feet long and carried 3 tons of cargo. I bet they could manage to squeeze 27 people aboard, in just as much safety and with only slightly less comfort as the boat in the OP.

[Phillip Allen]

so... semantics?

[MiddleAgesMan]

No.

[B_B]

I've never seen a conoe that would hold 27 people...

so... semantics?

To be sure I am not thinking inside your box (to your "point", Fred Z nailed the answer).

[Phillip Allen]

To be sure I am not thinking inside your box (to your "point", Fred Z nailed the answer).

I've seen that pic but in 63 years, I have yet to actually see such a boat... so you guys think a canoe can kill 27 people?

[Phillip Allen]

To be sure I am not thinking inside your box (to your "point", Fred Z nailed the answer).

as far as Fred 'nailing the answer goes... you seem to be saying that the boat in the accident could not kill more than a canoe... 27 aboard but could only kill 3 of them... that's quite a comparison you guys are working on

[pila]

I was always told by wise heads that there are sailors, and then there are "boaters" The "boater" was described as a person who signed on the dotted line for a new boat, but didn't know squat about how to manage it. I think that's a fairly good description.