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Thread: the market at work solving our problems

  1. #1
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    Default the market at work solving our problems

    In 2010, two counties in South Carolina, Orangeburg and Oconee, received federal funding to deliver broadband Internet to residents without access.



    The projects were the first of their kind in South Carolina.




    Now, they may also be the last.




    Last week, South Carolina passed a law that imposes new regulations on communities that want to build next-generation broadband networks.




    The law's supporters say it ensures local governments don't have an unfair advantage over private companies in the local broadband market. But critics say the law saddles local governments with financial and legal barriers that block them from deploying high-speed Internet access to rural communities in the future.




    At least 18 other states have passed similar laws restricting publicly owned broadband networks, according to Christopher Mitchell, director of the Telecommunications as Commons Initiative at the Institute for Local Self-Reliance.




    The laws, and the lawmakers who support them, are backed by major Internet providers trying to limit competition, even though they don't serve rural areas with high-speed Internet, said Mitchell. "The only threat of competition they face comes from local governments deciding to build their own networks, so they’re trying to stop that," he said.




    The debate highlights the digital divide in rural America. About 26 million people have no access to broadband, which has become a vital platform for finding jobs, attracting businesses, securing health care and acquiring an education.




    Many live in rural areas: About 60 percent of rural households, compared with 70 percent of urban households have high-speed internet connections, according to the U.S. Department of Commerce.




    Large Internet service providers say they don't deliver high-speed wired Internet to many rural areas because it's not as profitable. In response, more than 150 communities have built their own networks, taking a page from communities who built municipal power systems a century ago to ensure residents had access to affordable electricity. Some deliver fiber-optic cables directly to residents' homes with Internet speeds faster than DSL or cable.




    The need for broadband access is particularly great in South Carolina, which has one of the lowest Internet adoption rates in the country, according to the Federal Communications Commission.







    Tangee Brice Jacobs, the chairman of the Democratic Party in Fairfield County, S.C., said about two-thirds of residents in her community have no access to affordable high-speed Internet. Most are left to choose between dial-up, which is too slow, and satellite service, which is too expensive, she said.




    Local schoolchildren face the greatest consequences, she said, because they don't have Internet access at home to complete their homework. "How can these children compete in the world we have now without Internet access?" she said.




    Under South Carolina's new law, local governments must prove to state regulators that an area is not being served already. Without the law, supporters say communities would have an unfair advantage over corporations such as AT&T because they say local governments receive special benefits and subsidies.




    "What this law does is level the playing field,” Mike Gambrell, a state lawmaker who sponsored the legislation, said in an interview.




    But critics say AT&T, the major telecom company in the state, does not serve broadband to many rural areas where local governments could provide their own networks. In addition, they say the law leaves rural communities with sluggish Internet speeds because it defines a "served" area as one that can access internet speeds of least 190 kilobits per second, which is slower than the FCC's definition of broadband.




    AT&T declined to comment. Last fall, the company announced it spent $125 million in the first half of 2011 improving its mobile broadband network.




    Critics note that lawmakers who have supported restrictions on community broadband projects have received political contributions from large Internet service providers.




    In South Carolina, AT&T, CenturyLink, and Time Warner contributed more than $146,000 to state lawmakers since last January who supported the bill, according to an analysis by The New Republic.




    Last year, North Carolina also passed a law restricting local governments from building publicly owned broadband networks. Lawmakers who voted in favor of the bill received on average 76 percent more in donations from major cable and telecom companies than those who voted against it, according to the National Institute on Money in State Politics.




    Orangeburg County Administrator Bill Clark said South Carolina's new law would not prevent his county from completing its initial broadband project, which will use $18 million in federal stimulus funding to deliver broadband access to one quarter of the county.




    But he said the law would jeopardize future plans to deliver broadband to the remaining residents, many of whom are low income. Of the county's 90,000 residents, more than 20 percent live in poverty, Clark said.




    Without widespread broadband access in Orangeburg County, it would be difficult for them to find jobs because fewer businesses want to locate in the area, he said. "If we don't have the ability to deliver high-speed broadband, the jobs will go elsewhere," Clark said.




    He said he understood that private companies are unlikely to invest in rural areas, but said he couldn't understand why local governments should face obstacles when trying to serve those same areas with high-speed Internet.




    "Unless a public entity can fill the void left by the private sector, rural areas are going to be left out in the cold," he said.

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/0...ref=technology

  2. #2
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    Default Re: the market at work solving our problems

    Quote Originally Posted by Bartleby View Post
    Why should local governments with Federal funding be providing broadband access? They sure don't provide it for me. I have to pay for it myself. And I also have to pay the Federal taxes they're using to give it to someone else. Is broadband access like health insurance now? It's up to the government to make sure everyone has it whether they pay for it or not?
    you don't seem to have comprehended the article, they are not providing broadband to rural areas

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    Default Re: the market at work solving our problems

    Quote Originally Posted by Bartleby View Post
    Why should local governments with Federal funding be providing broadband access? They sure don't provide it for me. I have to pay for it myself. And I also have to pay the Federal taxes they're using to give it to someone else. Is broadband access like health insurance now? It's up to the government to make sure everyone has it whether they pay for it or not?
    Uh. Last I looked, the internet was a federal project. Why should everyone pay taxes to give you access?

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    Default Re: the market at work solving our problems

    Quote Originally Posted by Bartleby View Post
    Why should local governments with Federal funding be providing broadband access? They sure don't provide it for me. I have to pay for it myself. And I also have to pay the Federal taxes they're using to give it to someone else. Is broadband access like health insurance now? It's up to the government to make sure everyone has it whether they pay for it or not?
    Where is it written that it is free service they were providing? They were providing a BETTER service, but nowhere did it say it was for free.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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    Default Re: the market at work solving our problems

    Quote Originally Posted by Bartleby View Post
    Why is the government involved at all?
    why is the gov involved in the highways and bridges in your area?

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    Default Re: the market at work solving our problems

    Quote Originally Posted by Bartleby View Post
    Why is the government involved at all?
    We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.
    Seems OK to me.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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    Default Re: the market at work solving our problems

    Quote Originally Posted by Bartleby View Post
    Why is the government involved at all?
    That you ask this question is telling.
    "I beseech you, in the bowels of Christ, think it possible that you may be mistaken." (stolen from TomF )

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    Default Re: the market at work solving our problems

    Quote Originally Posted by Bartleby View Post
    Why should local governments with Federal funding be providing broadband access? They sure don't provide it for me. I have to pay for it myself. And I also have to pay the Federal taxes they're using to give it to someone else. Is broadband access like health insurance now? It's up to the government to make sure everyone has it whether they pay for it or not?
    An interesting look into your personal philosophy. Like a spoiled child, if it ain't about me, no-one gets it. If I dont benefit I'm not paying. Once you pay tax It is not your money, it is the govermnments to spend as they see fit on projects that benefit the wider community.
    grow a brain mate and stop acting like a whining child who desperately needs a belting

  9. #9
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    Default Re: the market at work solving our problems

    Originally Posted by Bartleby

    Why is the government involved at all?
    Indeed! Why is the state government stepping in and making laws that give out of state businesses an economic advantage over local communities? Seems rather unfair - esp. since teabaggers 'claim' they are for the little guy (& not at all in the employ of the Koch brothers)..


    I've figured it out.. IBM has designed several notable Supercomputers. Watson (of jeopardy fame), Deep Blue on chess, Big Blue etc.. There were, of course, failures.. some, never put on line - some, removed from service. One, which was notable for always getting the answers wrong & facts backwards, seems to have been inadvertently left on & on-line. It's code name, of course, was Bartleby..

    Lucky us. ;-)

    enjoy
    bobby

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    Default Re: the market at work solving our problems

    Bartleby,

    First you comment acerbically without even having bothered to read the article carefully (or at all?)... and therefore without having the facts straight.

    When corrected, you fail to acknowledge your error(s), but instead revert to ideologically-driven ignorance (why's the govt. involved at all?).

    Then you wonder why people are treating you badly?

    If you're serious about understanding why a government entity might want to promote something like this - look up the concepts of 'public goods', 'regulated utilities', 'uncoordinated markets', 'marginal rates of substitution & marginal rates of transformation', etc.

    Look into the history and rationale of such things as the interstate highways, the TVA, the BPA, the space program and esp. the Rural Electrification Administration. Think about how it might be wise at times for us to advance technology even when there isn't sufficient market demand at the moment for a for-profit entity to step up and do the job. Then think about whether it's a good idea to (as S.C. apparently has) put that process on hold, so that private industry has no competition if and when they decide it's worth their while to fill the market demand.
    David G
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    "It was a Sunday morning and Goddard gave thanks that there were still places where one could worship in temples not made by human hands." -- L. F. Herreshoff (The Compleat Cruiser)

  11. #11
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    Default Re: the market at work solving our problems

    Get a clue. They want it to control your info. FB, Tweet, your email. It;s good for our "Homeland security"! I am busted now, for posting this!!!!Look it up.
    $kipper 68 :fatal error...The more I learn,the more of danger to myself and others I've become! !

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    Default Re: the market at work solving our problems

    It must be the word "Independence" with Independence Day that has the liberal extremists here all disgruntled. I suppose it's not as soothing to them as Socialist Day might sound. I truly thought the health care decision would have kept them pacified for at least a month.

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    Default Re: the market at work solving our problems

    Quote Originally Posted by Bartleby View Post

    Originally Posted by Durnik

    Indeed! Why is the state government stepping in and making laws that give out of state businesses an economic advantage over local communities? Seems rather unfair - esp. since teabaggers 'claim' they are for the little guy (& not at all in the employ of the Koch brothers)..


    I've figured it out.. IBM has designed several notable Supercomputers. Watson (of jeopardy fame), Deep Blue on chess, Big Blue etc.. There were, of course, failures.. some, never put on line - some, removed from service. One, which was notable for always getting the answers wrong & facts backwards, seems to have been inadvertently left on & on-line. It's code name, of course, was Bartleby..

    Lucky us. ;-)

    enjoy
    bobby
    Nothing of substance to say so you start with the ad hominem attacks. You libs are all alike. Big mouths and little brains.
    And that, my dear Bartleby, is the point.. Let me repeat the substance you skipped so blithely over..

    Originally Posted by Bartleby

    Why is the government involved at all?
    Indeed! Why is the state government stepping in and making laws that give out of state businesses an economic advantage over local communities?
    It is the Government (S.C. State) 'involvement' which is designed to hurt the people for the profit to a business.. said business which already makes a magnificent profit. Yet you can only see the local involvement of aid to the citizens (which was restricted by the state involvement) & call it the 'bad government involvement'..

    Further, in the REA example Barry pointed out, the government, instead of being banned from helping, was the entity which sometimes entered an area, developed the infrastructure, & then turned it over to a private business/coop to run. In the current S.C. case, the opposite is happening.. Why? What has changed from the times when the Government used pro-active measures to now with the present restrictive measures? Could it be an incursion of conservative minds unable to see any but 'rape & pillage'? Surely it couldn't be to maximize profits at the expense of the dis-advantaged? I jest. Of course it is precisely to maximize profits via what can best be called 'rape & pillage'.. Here, my dear man, is the bad news.. You are one of they being 'raped & pillaged'.. & it appears you are also one of they who support the rapers & pillagers.. Are you truly that self destructive? As others have observed, you have also been the beneficiary of pro-active Government intervention - the most obvious, as was pointed out, being the Internet we are communicating over. Are you truly so narrow minded/self centered as to not be able to realize that others may need different particulars in aid? Sad.. So sad.

    One final bit of advice. Take the time to read, think.. & attempt to understand. BTW, my initial question was rhetorical, necessitating the 'thinking & understanding' parts..

    enjoy
    bobby

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    Default Re: the market at work solving our problems

    Quote Originally Posted by pipefitter View Post
    It must be the word "Independence" with Independence Day that has the liberal extremists here all disgruntled. I suppose it's not as soothing to them as Socialist Day might sound. I truly thought the health care decision would have kept them pacified for at least a month.
    & here I was thinking it was the 'Independence' word that had the conservative extremists all excited & riled up, thinking they & their belief system were the only ones of import!

    The old "I got mine, Screw You!" mentality all over again.

    Since this is 'Independence Day' , let's go back to my *'favorite' thought from one of our founders - no, not Bachmann's wet dream of 'the founders abolished slavery' - but Madisons statement of 'the purpose of government is to protect the minority (of the opulent) from the majority (of the poor/working class)'. A case in point being the S.C. decision to hurt the people.. & help big business..

    enjoy
    bobby

    * it's my 'favorite' because it shows that the U.S. government has been 'against the people' from the get-go.

  15. #15
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    Default Re: the market at work solving our problems

    does anyone remember enron and calif?

    the only community not affected by the gouging owned it's own generating capacity

  16. #16
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    Default Re: the market at work solving our problems

    Quote Originally Posted by wardd View Post
    does anyone remember enron and calif?

    the only community not affected by the gouging owned it's own generating capacity
    A good point.

    Around here, there are a lot of small to medium user-owned electical co-ops. They exist because the residents wanted to electrify before any for-profit thought it would be profitable. So they pooled their resources and went ahead. Some of them are hilariously mismanaged. Some are used as examples in the industry of good management (Eugene Water & Electric Board, IIRC, is one such). There are also lots of small, rural, water districts set up the same way, for the same reason. Without the necessity to generate profit for stockholders... there's a bit of cushion to absorb some of the inevitable inefficiencies of being run by volunteer board. My brother is on one such, and his tales of the board meetings are quite entertaining. Of course... I've served on several other boards... and the tales from those groups are equally goofy.

    The main point, though, is that there's nothing sacred... or even necessarily advantageous... about a for-profit in such circumstances. Sometimes it's better overall to not wait for their projections to begin to look profitable.
    Last edited by David G; 07-05-2012 at 08:43 PM.
    David G
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    "It was a Sunday morning and Goddard gave thanks that there were still places where one could worship in temples not made by human hands." -- L. F. Herreshoff (The Compleat Cruiser)

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    Default Re: the market at work solving our problems

    Quote Originally Posted by delecta View Post
    The Governments money? WTF does that mean? Seems like you should take some of your own advice and grow a brain "mate".
    It means what it says. Once you pay it to the government, you no longer have control of it. If you dont like what they are doing vote ém out but do us a favour and STOP WHINGING about what you can't control.

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    Default Re: the market at work solving our problems

    it seems Bartleby has dissappeared?
    The doctrine of nonresistance against arbitrary power, and oppression, is absurd, slavish, and destructive of the good and happiness of mankind.
    Personal failures are too important to be trusted to others.

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    Default Re: the market at work solving our problems

    he disappeared in a puff of logic

  20. #20
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    Default Re: the market at work solving our problems

    For those of you who are unaware - the intent of bringing the funding of high-speed internet accesswas to provide better 'net access to schools, libraries, small business and municipal entities. As I understood it the prime reason was to provide equity for under-funded and under-served rural communities.
    There's nothing more expensive than a "free" boat.

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