How do you cut up a lead keel?

[PeterSibley]

I have about 4000 pound of lead in one large piece, a keel cast for a boat that will not now be built. This lump will need to be cut into relatively small pieces to be recast into a new keel.

I've seen the chainsaw method and I don't think I want to go that way. It was most unpleasant and damaged the chainsaw around the sprocket housing with the sharp pieces of lead thrown from the chain.

Are there any slow and manageable methods of doing this ? Has anyone experimented with a mechanical arm on a handsaw or anything similar ?

Please tell me about any experiments you have conducted, all inputs welcome, successful or not so.

[Sailor]

You want slow? How about an electric plan? Shave the whole thing apart. It will be slow but the pieces will quickly melt down once you throw them in the melting pot.

[Wacoflyr]

It might be possible to rent a metal cutting bandsaw for not too much money. In any case, I believe some form of bandsaw is how I would approach this. There is a scrap metal shop near me, and I suppose that if I could not bring the bandsaw to the lead, then I could rent a suitable large truck and bring the lead to the... No. Somehow I would get the bandsaw to the lead.If you can just borrow one of those small, horizontal gizmos you could nibble at it over the course of a few hours. Goodluck!

[PeterSibley]

Wacoflyr ... that could be a good idea. The limitation seems to be that lead "balls" easily and gums a fine tooth blade. A slow speed, a larger tooth than the normal metal cutting blade and a lot of lubricant may help .If we can work this out it may actually be a very worth while bit of information for members.

[Sayla]

I have about 4000 pound of lead in one large piece, a keel cast for a boat that will not now be built. This lump will need to be cut into relatively small pieces to be recast into a new keel.

I've seen the chainsaw method and I don't think I want to go that way. It was most unpleasant and damaged the chainsaw around the sprocket housing with the sharp pieces of lead thrown from the chain.

Are there any slow and manageable methods of doing this ? Has anyone experimented with a mechanical arm on a handsaw or anything similar ?

Please tell me about any experiments you have conducted, all inputs welcome, successful or not so.

Heat is used successfully - a propane torch will cut chunks off (but wear your ppe!) - I would think that an old crosscut saw with two people would work well also; big teeth for chip/gunk clearance and easy to resharpen as needed
Where did you get it - I want one! - sounds better than collecting wheel balances

sayla

[James McMullen]

I've used a Sawzall with a low TPI blade with adequate results. Wear your dustmask, mate.

[PeterSibley]

I've used a Sawzall with a low TPI blade with adequate results. Wear your dustmask, mate.

How long is the longest Sawzall blade James?

[PeterSibley]

Heat is used successfully - a propane torch will cut chunks off (but wear your ppe!) - I would think that an old crosscut saw with two people would work well also; big teeth for chip/gunk clearance and easy to resharpen as needed
Where did you get it - I want one! - sounds better than collecting wheel balances

sayla

Um....I cast it myself from wheel weights. That boat will not go ahead, a smaller one will.

[Lewisboater]

I second the sawsall...you can get 9 inch wood/drywall blades for it.

[Jamie Orr]

I have about 4000 pound of lead in one large piece, a keel cast for a boat that will not now be built. This lump will need to be cut into relatively small pieces to be recast into a new keel.

I've seen the chainsaw method and I don't think I want to go that way. It was most unpleasant and damaged the chainsaw around the sprocket housing with the sharp pieces of lead thrown from the chain.

Are there any slow and manageable methods of doing this ? Has anyone experimented with a mechanical arm on a handsaw or anything similar ?

Please tell me about any experiments you have conducted, all inputs welcome, successful or not so.

Use someone else's chainsaw? Rent one?

[PeterSibley]

Renting one might be an idea but the results for the chainsaw aren't good.

[PeterSibley]

I second the sawsall...you can get 9 inch wood/drywall blades for it.

That might be possible... the keel is 10" at it's widest but that could be done at an angle . I'll see if they are available for rental here.

[okawbow]

Electric chainsaw. A new bar and chain are not that expensive. Wear a resirator.

[Bob Cleek]

Peter, I'm afraid I'm having a huge laugh at your expense reading all the above suggestions. I've cut up several lead keels over the years and seen others do the same. I've tried every option mentioned and I'll give you a play-by-play.

What works:

1. A chainsaw is best, although not your own! Rent one and send your wife back to return it. (Just kidding.) Lubrication is very important. (Kerosene is fine.) Lay out a lot of blue plastic tarps to catch the chips. They will amount to a fair amount of lead and are good for starting the melt, although the kerosene on them will smoke something awful until it cooks off. If you can get a "ripping" chain in your neck of the woods, by all means go for it. http://granberg.com/content/granberg-ripping-chain The ripping chain cuts a thinner kerf, so it's doing less work and making less chips. Go slow. Do whatever you can to keep things cool. What you want to avoid at all costs is the chain and bar heating up to the point where the lead is melting on it and galling it all up. A chainsaw bar frozen in a lump of lead ain't pretty. This method is messy, loud and dangerous (as is any chainsaw operation), but fairly quick and effective. You should only need to cut up chunks large enough to lift. It took me years to figure this out, but the easiest way to handle blocks of cut up keel is to clamp (tightly!) a large c-clamp (or as you call 'em, "cramps.") to the block and use that as a handle, rather than trying to pick it up by hand pressure alone. This saves a lot of risk to fingers, but imposes a countervailing risk to toes. BE CAREFUL! The clamp can slip, so make sure there's nothing under the block of lead you're carrying that you would mind it landing on.

2. A circular saw with a sharp carbide tipped blade is second best, but only if the block of lead is small enough to cut through with it. You can usually get about 3.5 inches out of a standard circular handsaw and if you can roll the keel, you can work around about six inches of keel. If that leaves an inch or two in the middle uncut, you can sever that with a handsaw usually. This is a lot harder on the circular saw than it is on a chainsaw. The circular saw moves fast and is very prone to seizing up in the kerf due to heat expansion and localized lead melting. Again, go slow. I'd go with the chainsaw if at all possible, though, unless we're talking about cuts of less than six inches square. As with the chainsaw, lay out a lot of plastic tarps to catch the chips. (Forgot to mention above... plastic tarps. Chips will stick to cloth tarps and become very difficult to collect thereafter.)

Now, as for the other options:

Gas torch... NOT! All you will get, at best, is some localized puddling on the surface, not to mention a lot of noxious off gassing and nasty splatter. That hunk of lead is a huge heat sink. You aren't about to cut it with a torch.

Handsaw... Unless you use a coarse toothed handsaw and are only cutting a small section (as in the center of a piece that's been "girdled" by a circular saw), progress is interminable.

Sawzall... Nope, tried it. No go. The longer blades suitable for cutting as much as four or even six inches (I once tried a really long heavy blade designed for limbing trees) lack the rigidity to survive bending when the blade siezes up in the kerf, which it WILL do at some point (often at a lot of points.) Once the blade is bent, it's toast. It will work with small pieces of little consequence, but when you get six inches deep into a hunk of lead, the blades can't stand up to it.

Bandsaw... Well, this is the only suggestion that I haven't actually tried because carrying a piece of lead large enough to need cutting up and horsing it onto an upright bandsaw table or onto a horizontal bandsaw as used in metal shops, is pointless. If you can handle it, it's big enough to throw into the pot to melt. (I don't have to tell you how big a block of lead you can handle. You've been there and done that, I expect, but for the others, if it's bigger than a shoebox, call Superman.) However, these new portable hand bandsaws may show some promise in limited applications.



The problem is that they are designed for cutting rod and tube stock and don't have the thoat you need for a keel of any real size. I don't know if they make them with extenders for larger throats or not. If they did, you may be able to use one to slap off chunks like slicing bread, which would be great. If so, you'd want a fairly coarse toothed blade that you could run slow. As with all the other methods, heat is your enemy.

In summary, the chainsaw, preferably with a ripping chain, is the best option because its cutting action aggressively throws the chips out of the kerf, unlike the blade cutters, which tend not to. The chainsaw has a lot more power as well, so the work goes faster.

[PeterSibley]

Hi Bob , thanks for the detailed response !

Yes, I know chainsaws work, I've done it and it was probably one of the more unpleasant jobs in my experience of noxious jobs . It is there lurking as a possibility but currently being avoided by me in hope that something new and shiny or preferably old and slow will appear and perform the operation without the screaming noise and the shot gun effect of millions of bits of high speed lead scattering themselves all over my shed .... well beyond the defineing limits of the blue tarps and old sails we had spread around.

I'm going to experiment with this and unless someone offers guidance probably have to come up with a solution myself .I MUCH prefer to benefit from the wisdom of others !

The chainsaw is the last option, it may end up being the only viable one but not until all else is exhausted !

[Pericles]

Try a felling axe or an oxyacetylene torch. Log splitter and sledge hammer. The widest bolster chisel and club hammer. Fitters used cold chisels and club hammers to cut steel. Carve off what you need and leave the rest as a sculpture.

It's what your right arm is for.

PS

This is NOT what I had in mind.

http://accidentalmysteries.blogspot....n-pencils.html

PPS

These are.

http://www.hcrowther.co.uk/thumbnail...roup=Fountains

All the best.

[andrewpatrol]

sell it buyer to remove

[PeterSibley]

Ah yes, I rang the recycler / metal dealer .How much would it cost me to deliver the keel and take an equal weight of ingots? $2000 was the answer!

[wizbang 13]

Peter, Did you use a specially made "rip "chain , or, as some around here call it, a "skip tooth"?
I have not sawn lead, but I have ripped wood. It did not make "oatmeal" flakes , but long pieces of "spaghetti" of the wood.
If it did the same with lead, the shotgun/missle problem would be much less.

[PeterSibley]

A good point Bruce, the chain was a normal firewooding cross cut chain, I'll have to investigate a ripping chain.

[PeterSibley]

This what you mean by ripping chain? I could file this out of an old one just for this job.

[Oldad]

I used a skil saw with a diablo carbide blade. My keel had a slot for a center board so the thickness was not a problem. However you cut it, do it on a tarp to catch all of the saw dust, lots of good lead there, more than you would expect. Sawzall did not work so well for me.

[Phil Y]

I'm pretty sure you already did this a year or two ago. Am I going crazy?

[keyhavenpotterer]

Just saying the obvious, if your starting with a bigger block and have to cut this up, you definately can't cut the bigger keel you've got into the smaller keel you need?

Ed

[Bob Cleek]

Hi Bob , thanks for the detailed response !

Yes, I know chainsaws work, I've done it and it was probably one of the more unpleasant jobs in my experience of noxious jobs . It is there lurking as a possibility but currently being avoided by me in hope that something new and shiny or preferably old and slow will appear and perform the operation without the screaming noise and the shot gun effect of millions of bits of high speed lead scattering themselves all over my shed .... well beyond the defineing limits of the blue tarps and old sails we had spread around.

I'm going to experiment with this and unless someone offers guidance probably have to come up with a solution myself .I MUCH prefer to benefit from the wisdom of others !

The chainsaw is the last option, it may end up being the only viable one but not until all else is exhausted !

Peter, if you find a better way, let me know!

[emma55]

Ah yes, I rang the recycler / metal dealer .How much would it cost me to deliver the keel and take an equal weight of ingots? $2000 was the answer!

Hold on here for a wag , " A old man once told me "son if you want it today it will cost you more "

[Bob Cleek]

Try a felling axe or an oxyacetylene torch. Log splitter and sledge hammer. The widest bolster chisel and club hammer. Fitters used cold chisels and club hammers to cut steel. Carve off what you need and leave the rest as a sculpture.

It's what your right arm is for.

PS

This is NOT what I had in mind.

http://accidentalmysteries.blogspot....n-pencils.html

PPS

These are.

http://www.hcrowther.co.uk/thumbnail...roup=Fountains

All the best.

I have had limited success busting off a hunk that is "hanging" for one reason or another using a wedge and sledge. It didn't work well. I've even tried dropping a "gilliotine" from a crane, like is used to bust up hulls in the knacker's yard. The gilliotine made about a 1" crease, dropped from about 15', but not more. The lead is too soft for hammer and chisel. It just absorbs and spreads too much of the impact force.

I mean, really, I think I've tried myself or seen tried just about every possible solution and the only thing that works reasonably well is the chainsaw.

[PeterSibley]

I'm pretty sure you already did this a year or two ago. Am I going crazy?

Yep, it's the heat .

[PeterSibley]

Just saying the obvious, if your starting with a bigger block and have to cut this up, you definately can't cut the bigger keel you've got into the smaller keel you need?

Ed

Oh that it where possible! The new design has a much wider keel and bar a major redesign it's got to be all new.

[emma55]

I bought a 2000lb keel from the junk man . He had a very large " backhoe " With this clipper on the end . In place of the bucket . Cut that thing up like eating Sunday Morn Cake

[Phil Y]

Nah-there was pictures and everything, and you were going to sell the bits to Duncan.

[Jim Ledger]

Peter, despite the opinions to the contrary a sawzall will work just fine, and is probably one of the cleaner options in terms of dust containment

I cut up a two thousand pound keel into chunks of about 150 lbs. using a sawzall and a demolition blade about a foot long. Waxing the blade doesn't hurt, to prevent the teeth from loading. I think I used two blades, the lead being so soft. It probably took about six hours. Dead boring, but what would you expect.

A skilsaw would have been good to make initial cuts but I didn't have one with me.

[emma55]

Well there we go , Peter sorry about this ext.work for you . Only 12,000 miles between us . I so wish I could stop by to help !

[PeterSibley]

Nah-there was pictures and everything, and you were going to sell the bits to Duncan.

To Gary, 200 kg off the end is all. T'was an enlightening experience and didn't improve his chainsaw at all.

[Bob Cleek]

Peter, despite the opinions to the contrary a sawzall will work just fine, and is probably one of the cleaner options in terms of dust containment

I cut up a two thousand pound keel into chunks of about 150 lbs. using a sawzall and a demolition blade about a foot long. Waxing the blade doesn't hurt, to prevent the teeth from loading. I think I used two blades, the lead being so soft. It probably took about six hours. Dead boring, but what would you expect.

A skilsaw would have been good to make initial cuts but I didn't have one with me.

I didn't know they had demo blades that long. Yep, it will work if you have a hunk of lead small enough, as shown. I was mainly talking about cutting up keels that were ten inches, a foot, or more thick. And, as you noted, it takes time. The chain saw is the "thermonuclear option."

I'm fascinated to hear that a demo shears will cut right through a keel. I expect it would. These are really amazing pieces of machinery, but hugely expensive. If you had access to one, that would be the way to go. Major league Tonka toy! The tyrranosaurus rex of heavy equipment.

[Phil Y]

To Gary, 200 kg off the end is all. T'was an enlightening experience and didn't improve his chainsaw at all.

At least it was real!

[philsboat]

Use a coarse blade.

Cut slow.

Cool with water.

If I remember correctly.

Phil

[Mrleft8]

.... From left to right, of course.... How else would one cut up a lead keel?

[John Meachen]

A worm drive saw will be quite handy and a good dollop of kerosene helps.You may have to cut from both sides and if there is a bit left in the middle,a handsaw may just suffice.

[PeterSibley]

Thanks Jim, that could be perfect! My keel is between 9" and 10" thick so I'll really need those long blades. That could be a limiting factor as I haven't seen them here, it doesn't mean they aren't available but I'll have to search. I wonder if kerosene would work to stop the blade galling with lead ?

Peter, despite the opinions to the contrary a sawzall will work just fine, and is probably one of the cleaner options in terms of dust containment

I cut up a two thousand pound keel into chunks of about 150 lbs. using a sawzall and a demolition blade about a foot long. Waxing the blade doesn't hurt, to prevent the teeth from loading. I think I used two blades, the lead being so soft. It probably took about six hours. Dead boring, but what would you expect.

A skilsaw would have been good to make initial cuts but I didn't have one with me.

[Jim Ledger]

I didn't know they had demo blades that long.

Any Home Depot has them.

[Jim Ledger]

Thanks Jim, that could be perfect! My keel is between 9" and 10" thick so I'll really need those long blades. That could be a limiting factor as I haven't seen them here, it doesn't mean they aren't available but I'll have to search. I wonder if kerosene would work to stop the blade galling with lead ?

You want a blade with coarse teeth. I used wax because I had a stick, but any kind of liquid oil would probably help the cutting, cutting oil, old motor oil, kero, might even work better..

One thing though, older Sawzalls had a straight-line cutting action, which won't work well. Anything made since the nineties probably has an orbital cutting action which provides a much more aggressive cut.

[PeterSibley]

I'll try my local hire shop.

[kc8pql]

Electric chainsaw. A new bar and chain are not that expensive. Wear a resirator.

This is the right answer. Lead cuts easily. Lay down plastic tarps to catch the chips.

[Redeye]

KHP's suggestion of carving the new keel from the old is not possible?

Saving a melt and pour and a new mold would certainly appeal to me...

R

[Candyfloss]

Peter, I've never tried to cut up a lead keel, but I can tell you that when I went to drill the inch-and-an eighth holes for the keelbolts in Candyfloss' keel, the Yacht Club consensus of opinion was to go slow & careful. Bull****.

Slow & careful burned out the electronic speed control on my Dad's big Woolf drill before I got to the bottom of the first hole, after which it would only run at full speed. Full speed drilled the remaining holes effortlessly & without drama. And I used an ordinary, auger-style wood drill, freshly sharpened. Something like 800mm down each of three holes. A power plane leveled off the top of the keel, cutting like a hot knife thru butter.

If I were you, which I ain't, but if I was, I'd climb into it with the biggest Skilly I could hire. Something like a concrete-cutter, but with a sharp blade.

[PeterSibley]

There's good food for thought there Mr Floss! I'll resist the Skilsaw for a while , my 7 1/4 " Makita is too small anyway but a drill would be a very useful .I could quite easily drill closely spaced holes down through the lead and come very close to cutting it completely . I have a very good Makita 500 rpm 1/2" electric drill motor and lots of drill bits . It would be far more pleasant than a chainsaw ! I'm not sure how I'd finish the job but that would be a great start !

[WX]

To Gary, 200 kg off the end is all. T'was an enlightening experience and didn't improve his chainsaw at all.

Actually it was 400 kgs. Peter I have an old chainsaw you can have. It worked last time I used it but the pull start is missing a pawl and has jammed. i never bothered to fix it.
An observation on power planing lead. I found that fine lead particles tended to build up in the shaving outlet of the planer. It was easy to clear with a flat screwdriver and hammer but be warned.

[PeterSibley]

I'll take you up on that Gary , I don't want to use my little Husqvarna on lead, I think it might tear the plastic casing apart.

[WX]

Come over in a car on Saturday and I'll give a few things to take home.