For the Anti-Wind folks

[Garret]

who promote the myth that all wind turbines kill birds (bold mine):

http://www.treehugger.com/renewable-...8Treehugger%29

John Laumer previously tackled the thorny topic of wind turbines killing birds, labeling it an "eco-myth". But bird conservation charities continue to be concerned about wind turbines being built in bird migration paths or other ecologically sensitive areas.
Britain's Royal Society for the Protection of Birds (RSPB) has been at the thick of some of these battles, objecting to a 540MW wind farm in the Shetlands. But it has also raised its voice about the crucial importance of fighting climate change to protect birds.
So it makes sense that the RSPB is working with wind energy supplier Ecotricity to install a 100 meter high wind turbine at its headquarters in Bedfordshire. Martin Harper, RSPB's conservation director, explained that the turbine should send a message to the world about appropriate renewable energy development:

“We know that with the right design and location wind turbines have little or no impact on wildlife. The RSPB has commented on over 1,500 wind farm applications. In the small number of cases – around six per cent – where we feel there is likely to be a significant impact on wildlife we have lodged an objection. In many of these cases the developers have listened and redesigned their plans to make sure they do not threaten wildlife.

“We hope that by siting a wind turbine at our UK headquarters, we will demonstrate to others that with a thorough environmental assessment and the right planning and design, renewable energy and a healthy, thriving environment can go hand in hand.”

Goodness me, pragmatism and cooperation in the fight for our energy future. More of the same please.

[johnw]

Well, sure, but what about bats?

http://www.mesc.usgs.gov/BatsWindmills/

[wardd]

Well, sure, but what about bats?

http://www.mesc.usgs.gov/BatsWindmills/

not to mention low flying super heros

[Garret]

Well, sure, but what about bats?

http://www.mesc.usgs.gov/BatsWindmills/

Just like for birds - you site them appropriately. There's a 13 turbine farm in southern VT that's been up for 10+ years. 2 bats killed in the entire time.

[switters]

Fart

[johnw]

Just like for birds - you site them appropriately. There's a 13 turbine farm in southern VT that's been up for 10+ years. 2 bats killed in the entire time.

Good to hear. As with most things, it's the early versions of the wind farms that have the problems.

But of course, what we're learning about siting them means that there's less wind power available, because you can't just put them anywhere that has wind.

[switters]

If you think about the thread title the above response is hilarious, and I did promise His Plessness to fart at least one thread while he was gone.

Want to save birds and other wildlife, stop driving your car. RE is the only future we have.

[Garret]

If you think about the thread title the above response is hilarious, and I did promise His Plessness to fart at least one thread while he was gone.

Want to save birds and other wildlife, stop driving your car. RE is the only future we have.

And eliminate all picture windows. Far more birds are killed in a day by windows than are killed by wind farms in years.

[Steve McMahon]

Man-made structure/technology	Associated bird deaths per year (U.S.)
Feral and domestic cats	Hundreds of millions [source: AWEA]
Power lines	130 million -- 174 million [source: AWEA]
Windows (residential and commercial)	100 million -- 1 billion [source: TreeHugger]
Pesticides	70 million [source: AWEA]
Automobiles	60 million -- 80 million [source: AWEA]
Lighted communication towers	40 million -- 50 million [source: AWEA]
Wind turbines	10,000 -- 40,000 [source: ABC]

[Garret]

You darn folks from north of the border - always trying to mess up emotionally based beliefs with facts!

[ron ll]

Looks like Texas is shipping a lot wind North today (so what's new? )

http://hint.fm/wind/

[Gerarddm]

The bird/bat controversy has been rather overblown.

Ooops, sorry for the pun

[Garret]

No you're not.

Always have to be the gay blade, eh? That's OK, 'cause your intellect towers over the rest of us.

All right, I'll stop - or else no one will be a fan anymore.

[PeterSibley]

And eliminate all picture windows. Far more birds are killed in a day by windows than are killed by wind farms in years.

Ain't that the truth . I built a new shed and installed 6 big pieces of shower screen glass as windows then went away for a week . When I arrived home a week later there were 6 dead birds on the shed floor, I ran cross pattern of tape immediately.... I just hadn't thought of it before. Down here our sheds are often open on 2 sides for ventilation , these pigeons had been taking a short cut ..

[Ron Williamson]

You darn folks from north of the border - always trying to mess up emotionally based beliefs with facts!

Crazy Talk!
We've got whole rafts of wackos who don't let facts get in the way of a good rant.
R

[Ron Williamson]

Ain't that the truth . I built a new shed and installed 6 big pieces of shower screen glass as windows then went away for a week . When I arrived home a week later there were 6 dead birds on the shed floor, I ran cross pattern of tape immediately.... I just hadn't thought of it before. Down here our sheds are often open on 2 sides for ventilation , these pigeons had been taking a short cut ..

Sadly,I must claim responsibility for the death of a lovely little owl,a few years ago.
Since then,I've strung a few CDs in front of the windows and I haven't seen any corpses,so I think it's working.
R

[Steve McMahon]

On a serious note, I have been following the development of turbines for decades now. It is amazing how quickly they are improving. It seems every new model is leaps and bounds ahead of the previous. I just visited a new field of 15 x 2MW turbines. With them running at full speed you could barely hear the turbine whine at 100 metres. At 200 meters with your eyes closed you wouldn't know you were surrounded by these machines.
http://www.sprottpower.com/projects/amherst-i

[Garret]

Crazy Talk!
We've got whole rafts of wackos who don't let facts get in the way of a good rant.
R

Phew!

[Steve McMahon]

Sadly,I must claim responsibility for the death of a lovely little owl,a few years ago.
Since then,I've strung a few CDs in front of the windows and I haven't seen any corpses,so I think it's working.
R

I have had good luck using light window tinting from Canadian Tire. It seemed to make the windows just dark enough for the birds to avoid them.

[Garret]

On a serious note, I have been following the development of turbines for decades now. It is amazing how quickly they are improving. It seems every new model is leaps and bounds ahead of the previous. I just visited a new field of 15 x 2MW turbines. With them running at full speed you could barely hear the turbine whine at 100 metres. At 200 meters with your eyes closed you wouldn't know you were surrounded by these machines.
http://www.sprottpower.com/projects/amherst-i

Yup. I'm currently staying in a motel in west central Illinois. The city put up 2 2 MW machines about 1000' from interstate 80. You never hear the turbines - but you sure do hear the trucks! The city figures the payback is about 8 years & the turbines have a 20+ year lifespan - but that makes too much sense to many. BTW - this area is bible-belt republican.....

[Ron Williamson]

I know a guy who has turbines on the farm where he lives.
He told me that during the town approval meetings,there was an opponent who insisted that the breeze from behind a big turbine would knock a person over.
R

[Steve McMahon]

I know a guy who has turbines on the farm where he lives.
He told me that during the town approval meetings,there was an opponent who insisted that the breeze from behind a big turbine would knock a person over.
R

The county I live in is about to put a moratorium on large scale wind turbines. They hired a consultant to do a report, which in my opinion came up with a good conservative set of guidelines. Then in typical fashion they are caving to the vocal minority who came out and made some presentations at the public meetings. The sad part is that none of the opponants I could find, nor any of the councillors had actually visited a modern wind farm including two that have just started within a three hour drive of here. The same people who oppose he wind turbines because of the environmental destruction caused by the building of them want to see the higway that goes through prime farm land expanded to be a divided 4 lane.

[varadero]

Wind turbines are like marmite.

[PeterSibley]

Wind turbines are like marmite.

Black, sticky and spread on toast ?

[skuthorp]

Some here claim to be effected by the low sound waves given off, and have moved house as a result. Others can't hear a thing. Individual differences in hearing I guess.

[PeterSibley]

Some here claim to be effected by the low sound waves given off, and have moved house as a result. Others can't hear a thing. Individual differences in hearing I guess.

Yes, that one is strange, it would be good to see some decent science on it.

[varadero]

Black, sticky and spread on toast ?

you either love it, or hate it.

[Ron Williamson]

Yes, that one is strange, it would be good to see some decent science on it.

They also claim illness due to harmonics,when there are several of the beasts in a group.
The illness may be real,but perhaps more psychological than physical.
No one complains about the massive powerline corridors from the local nukes to the cities where the power is used, but they give me the creeps when I get near them.
R

[LeeG]

you either love it, or hate it.

If you're stuck with either/or thinking.

[LeeG]

There's an article in Harpers magazine about farming in the Oglala and how wind farming is the new crop. Not sure how that fits in Varadero's world.

[PeterSibley]

It would be good to know whether to file the complaints with ley lines or as you say look for psychological reasons ( not to denigrate psychological reasons), I'd say some decent research is required .

[hanleyclifford]

The county I live in is about to put a moratorium on large scale wind turbines. They hired a consultant to do a report, which in my opinion came up with a good conservative set of guidelines. Then in typical fashion they are caving to the vocal minority who came out and made some presentations at the public meetings. The sad part is that none of the opponants I could find, nor any of the councillors had actually visited a modern wind farm including two that have just started within a three hour drive of here. The same people who oppose he wind turbines because of the environmental destruction caused by the building of them want to see the higway that goes through prime farm land expanded to be a divided 4 lane.

The rich folks who live here are a lot more honest: they just don't want them in their water view.

[Todd D]

Personally I object to them for two main reasons.First, they are very expensive to set up and have a payback time about equal to their expected life. The cost per kilowatt is also considerably higher than other electricity sources.Second, since wind isn't a reliable power source, you have to maintain other reliable (as in available whne you need the power) generating sources, so wind doesn't actually replace older style generation, it simply supplements it WHEN the wind blows.

[hanleyclifford]

When it comes to energy use issues there is no substitute for intelligent home design.

[Ron Williamson]

When it comes to energy use issues there is no substitute for intelligent home design.

That would mean people could quit pissing it away without even trying.
We wouldn't want that.
R

[Bob Adams]

Some here claim to be effected by the low sound waves given off, and have moved house as a result. Others can't hear a thing. Individual differences in hearing I guess.

Or the level of paranoia.

[DanSkorupka]

The renewable energy source that is expected to kill the most birds is solar thermal.
Dish-Stirling is probably the most efficient active solar device that will ever exist.
it is also the deadliest.
look up archimedes "death ray", now imagine if it actually worked

I have firsthand accounts that a dish of barely over 2 meters diameter that fatally flash fried several pidgeons in mid air in a single afternoon. That death dish gave out less than a kilowatt of electricity peak.

the simple solution would be to have a clear plastic cone over the no go zone with little semi reflective shapes on it that will alert birds to its presence.

[Chip-skiff]

Heard a talk on windpower and bird deaths last weekend. It's not a myth: wind turbines do kill birds and mess up habitat. Whether they do as much damage, cumulatively, as surface coal mining or oil and gas development is still in question.

One of the worst is the old Altamont windfarm, east of San Francisco Bay. The towers are lattice-type, which leads birds to perch on them, and then get whacked taking off. The blades are shorter, too near the ground, and turn fast. I recall the figure quoted for bird deaths at Altamont was 4-5000 per year, mostly songbirds.

The new windfarms being built in Wyoming have tubular towers (no perches) and longer foils set higher above the ground. The rpm is slower, although the blade tips are still moving fast. So they tend to cause fewer deaths per megawatt. But the large size, shadows, noise, and service road network are doing serious harm to ground-nesting species such as the sage grouse.

One thing I hadn't heard is that many bat deaths are caused by the low-pressure wakes that follow the foils. Evidently, bats get sucked into them and suffer explosive decompression (like the bends).

When it comes to energy, there's no free lunch. But so far our 4 kw PV array hasn't caused any critter deaths.



I check every morning for dead birds— I guess a really dumb bird might crash into it. So far, so good.

[Mrleft8]

This is just my opinion, of course, but..... If the bird is stupid enough to fly into a whirring blade, it probably deserves to die.....

[Garret]

The rich folks who live here are a lot more honest: they just don't want them in their water view.

You must be referring to "The Alliance to Protect Nantucket Sound" - aka "The coal & oil company folks (+ Ted Kennedy) who want to tell the serfs what they can't do while keeping the cape on dirty fuels". Well funded, wrong headed refugees from the robber baron days.

[Garret]

Personally I object to them for two main reasons.First, they are very expensive to set up and have a payback time about equal to their expected life. The cost per kilowatt is also considerably higher than other electricity sources.Second, since wind isn't a reliable power source, you have to maintain other reliable (as in available whne you need the power) generating sources, so wind doesn't actually replace older style generation, it simply supplements it WHEN the wind blows.

Actually, that's not quite accurate except that wind is not a base source. Turbines often cost far less per KWH than other sources & normally have lifetimes well after they are paid for.

[Sam F]

One thing's for certain, cars kill birds and lots of them too. Just wondering when we'll be exhorted to stop driving...

[Willin']

I know a guy who has turbines on the farm where he lives.
He told me that during the town approval meetings,there was an opponent who insisted that the breeze from behind a big turbine would knock a person over.
R

I think I saw that once. It was near the wind turbine at the end of the runway in Sint Maarten.

[Garret]

I think I saw that once. It was near the wind turbine at the end of the runway in Sint Maarten.

Only if it was a Liat prop plane.....

[Ron Williamson]

I think I saw that once. It was near the wind turbine at the end of the runway in Sint Maarten.

Yeah,I could see some tapping him on the shoulder,mid-rant,and whispering,"Uhh,....Bill,the anti airport meeting is next week."
R

[Mad Scientist]

The county I live in is about to put a moratorium on large scale wind turbines. They hired a consultant to do a report, which in my opinion came up with a good conservative set of guidelines. Then in typical fashion they are caving to the vocal minority who came out and made some presentations at the public meetings. The sad part is that none of the opponants I could find, nor any of the councillors had actually visited a modern wind farm including two that have just started within a three hour drive of here. The same people who oppose he wind turbines because of the environmental destruction caused by the building of them want to see the higway that goes through prime farm land expanded to be a divided 4 lane.

UPDATE: the county council voted 10-1 to put the moratorium in place on Tuesday. Technically, they recinded a bylaw which would have allowed developers to erect wind turbines as long as they were at least 700 metres from the nearest dwelling.

(Then there's the case of the organic farmer who opposed construction of a cellphone tower - claimed that it was bad for his plants.)

Tom

[Steve McMahon]

UPDATE: the county council voted 10-1 to put the moratorium in place on Tuesday. Technically, they recinded a bylaw which would have allowed developers to erect wind turbines as long as they were at least 700 metres from the nearest dwelling.

(Then there's the case of the organic farmer who opposed construction of a cellphone tower - claimed that it was bad for his plants.)

Tom

Very sad indeed.
Regarding the farmer and the cell phone tower: I would actually be a lot more concerned about possible health effects of cell phone towers and communication towers in general than from a wind turbine.