I hope that you will feel able to sign this petition to the British Government

[Andrew Craig-Bennett]

http://www.change.org/petitions/ukho...sa-saverichard

Richard O'Dwyer is a 24 year old British student at Sheffield Hallam University in the UK. He is facing extradition to the USA and up to ten years in prison, for creating a website – TVShack.net – which linked (similar to a search-engine) to places to watch TV and movies online.

O'Dwyer is not a US citizen, he's lived in the UK all his life, his site was not hosted there, and most of his users were not from the US. America is trying to prosecute a UK citizen for an alleged crime which took place on UK soil.

The internet as a whole must not tolerate censorship in response to mere allegations of copyright infringement. As citizens we must stand up for our rights online.

When operating his site, Richard O'Dwyer always did his best to play by the rules: on the few occasions he received requests to remove content from copyright holders, he complied. His site hosted links, not copyrighted content, and these were submitted by users.

Copyright is an important institution, serving a beneficial moral and economic purpose. But that does not mean that copyright can or should be unlimited. It does not mean that we should abandon time-honoured moral and legal principles to allow endless encroachments on our civil liberties in the interests of the moguls of Hollywood.

Richard O'Dwyer is the human face of the battle between the content industry and the interests of the general public. Earlier this year, in the fight against the anti-copyright bills SOPA and PIPA, the public won its first big victory. This could be our second.

This is why I am petitioning the UK's Home Secretary Theresa May to stop the extradition of Richard O'Dwyer. I hope you will join me.

- Jimmy Wales, Wikipedia founder

[Rum_Pirate]

Oops, I have double posted on this topic.

http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...ion-to-the-USA

But it is an important issue and deserves extra promotion.

[Andrew Craig-Bennett]

I agree!

[pefjr]

Lots of info on the side of RD available, can't find any on the other side of the story. Certainly you boys that are posting this plea, have looked at the other side of the story before making your decision, maybe you can post a link.

[GaryK]

I heard the treaty isn't 2 way, as in the British can't pluck a US citizen from his home in the US and try him in the UK. (As reported here on Aussie TV.)
So maybe the Brits should look at making the deal with the Americans equal.

[Andrew Craig-Bennett]

Lots of info on the side of RD available, can't find any on the other side of the story. Certainly you boys that are posting this plea, have looked at the other side of the story before making your decision, maybe you can post a link.

Well, there's no doubt at all that he broke the laws of the United States of America.

But he did so in another country.

[pefjr]

Well, there's no doubt at all that he broke the laws of the United States of America.

But he did so in another country.

Copyright laws? piracy laws? These countries do have reciprocal agreements concerning each other's copyright's, do they not? Would letting RD off the hook open a can of worms for everyone concerned with copyrights? I think it would and enterprising young folks would flock to the countries allowing this copyright infringement loophole. Then the US would do the same for you guys and so yadda yadda. Just kill the agreements and lets go into business. Course then all the artists that create would just stop creating because of no profit margin. Back to ground zero.

[Rum_Pirate]

Well, there's no doubt at all that he broke the laws of the United States of America.

But he did so in another country.

So if one jaywalks somewhere in the world (other than in the USofA) you should pay the fine as one would be required if in say New York?

Sometimes it does appear that the USA appears to be far too arrogant.

No wonder many places and peoples in the world despise American attitudes etc.


Shouldn't they be prosecuting the 'Americans' that broke the law by visiting a site outside the USA etc etc.

The USA tried to ban online gambling in Antigua. Why? because their citizens were using the site and the USA IRS were not getting a cut.

[Paul Pless]

So I guess Andrew thinks that infringing on U.S. copyrights is okay in the U.K. Trademarks and patents too, no doubt. . .

[Rum_Pirate]

I heard the treaty isn't 2 way, as in the British can't pluck a US citizen from his home in the US and try him in the UK. (As reported here on Aussie TV.)
So maybe the Brits should look at making the deal with the Americans equal.

The deal is supposed to be two way. BUT the British signed and the Americans (renaged) did not.

Yet the Americans still want to enforce the agreement that they have not signed?????

[Rum_Pirate]

Do you think (regardless if they did the crime or not) any American citizen will be ever tried for war crimes in the International Court of Justice in the Hague?

[Tom Montgomery]

When operating his site, Richard O'Dwyer always did his best to play by the rules: on the few occasions he received requests to remove content from copyright holders, he complied.

Just like YouTube.

His site hosted links, not copyrighted content...

Unlike YouTube which often hosts copyrighted content.

...and these were submitted by users.

Just like YouTube.

[johnw]

So I guess Andrew thinks that infringing on U.S. copyrights is okay in the U.K. Trademarks and patents too, no doubt. . .

Oddly enough, U.S. copyright law used to encourage pirating the works of foreign authors, most of them British, as it turned out.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/s...ryId=103993065

I love the fact that the book pirates were called 'bookaneers.'

[skuthorp]

A few years ago the US changed it's copyright laws to extend existing copyright to continue income streams of mostly large publishing companies. They certainly pressured the Aussie govt to comply and I think, to some extent, we did. Unfortunately.
I'm quite sure if the law traffic was the other way there'd not even be a reply.

[Phillip Allen]

are we heading to one world government?

[Tom Montgomery]

Oh yes. Better stock up on ammo.

[WX]

Happy to sign. It's bloody outrageous that it's not reciprocal.

[PeterSibley]

The petition site appears to be suffering difficulties loading my signature ?????

[Phillip Allen]

Happy to sign. It's bloody outrageous that it's not reciprocal.

I agree so far

[Paul Pless]

It's bloody outrageous that it's not reciprocal.

whose fault is that?

[Waddie]

My youngest son (he's 25) works for the local big urban library system. They had a discussion recently as many e-book publishers require the public library to pay full price for each e-book each time it's "electronically checked out". The system can't afford this... Additionally, a few publishers (through their distributors) are refusing to sell actual paper books to libraries as they don't receive a royalty each time it's checked out. Funny thing is, libraries are one of the main reasons many people got into the reading habit.
So, yes, I'll sign the petition.

regards,
Waddie

[Steve McMahon]

Can't the US just send a drone to fix this ?

[Garret]

Can't the US just send a drone to fix this ?

I'm sure the RWNJ's would love to.... Don't give them ideas!

Signed it, BTW. I'm not a fan of copyright infringement - but with the US not signing the agreement - tough luck. Don;t we ever get tired of being bullies?

[WX]

whose fault is that?

The Brits should have insisted otherwise no deal.The US can be very persuasive, if the sycophancy of our government is anything to go by.

[GaryK]

whose fault is that?

I think in the Blair of publicity... uh glare.., who'd know?

[Farfalla]

If his actions were entirely within the UK and legal there then the US has no right to ask for his extradition. he committed no crime in the UK and has never committed one in the US either.
Karzai has passed laws in Afghanistan that legalise rape in marriage. That is illegal in the Western world. Will the US be extraditing all the men who rape their wives in Afghanistan.
Somehow I don't think so.
CIA agents kidnapped and illegally transported people innocent of any crime and had them tortured all without a court. Is the US lining all those agents up to hand back to those countries where they committed their crimes, even though they were very clearly crimes in the countries involved, Italy, France, Germany, UK. Italy has indictments out for 8 CIA agents involved in one incident alone but the US will never hand them over even though they very clearly broke Italian law.

The arrogance that is behind such US positions is staggering but the gutless response of politicians like BLiar and that joke Berlusconi that enabled some of this to happen and in the present situation Cameron who will A**kiss whenever he gets a chance is even more pathetic.

[Paul Pless]

If his actions were entirely within the UK and legal there then the US has no right to ask for his extradition. he committed no crime in the UK and has never committed one in the US either.

Its really not quite so simple when you run a business (or crime ring) that's operations extend beyond international borders.

When operating his site, Richard O'Dwyer always did his best to play by the rules. . .

Perhaps Andrew could elaborate on Mr. O'Dwyer's 'best' business practices. Much of the case will hinge on the intent of the site, i.e. how much of the content that was hosted or 'passed through' his sight was done so illegally.

[Farfalla]

Its really not quite so simple when you run a business (or crime ring) that's operations extend beyond international borders.

Good call Paul, it's not often that we agree.
You only have to look at the criminal actions of groups like the CIA or the other spy agencies that have been involved with them and their illegal "war on terror" that is used to justify so much that is illegal.

[Dumah]

'murricans want their cake and eat it to, at the expense of all others. As I've said before, 'murrica runs on three basic rules (1) might is right, (2) US law has precidence over EVERYONE, (3) when the law is inconvienent, ignore it.

Cheers, Dumah,
Halifax, NS

[pefjr]

This issue has gotten out of focus and now involves the CIA? Farfalla, explain why your own Magistrate ruled RD could be extradited, then your Home Secretary approved it.

[Farfalla]

Pefjr.
Try reading my comments on our politicians that grovel to american arrogance.
The comments about CIA are right on the money. How much harm did this one guy do and he never actuallym did anything illegal in UK. But as i said, the CIA have been breaking the laws of every Western country and your own laws with impunity for decades!!
But they will never be called to account!

[pefjr]

Pefjr.
Try reading my comments on our politicians that grovel to american arrogance.
The comments about CIA are right on the money. How much harm did this one guy do and he never actuallym did anything illegal in UK. But as i said, the CIA have been breaking the laws of every Western country and your own laws with impunity for decades!!
But they will never be called to account!

Different issues, can you focus on the issue of the thread? Copyright law.

[Farfalla]

Different issues, can you focus on the issue of the thread? Copyright law.

Not a different issue at all.
someone is being threatened for extradition for a crime that doesn't exist in the country he's in and he's never been to the US.
No different to the rape in marriage laws in Afghanistan, the US wont be chasing them for commiting crimes in their own country even if the act is illegal in the US.
The CIA agents example is right as well.

You are just trying to limit the discussion to your chosen terms and I'm not going to do that. Those analogies are quite relevant. If you don't agree with them then refute them!

[Paul Pless]

fart

[varadero]

This issue has gotten out of focus and now involves the CIA? Farfalla, explain why your own Magistrate ruled RD could be extradited, then your Home Secretary approved it.

This time I agree with pefjr, the problem is not the US request, but the UK's aquiescence. Which is why I guess the petition is addressed to the UK Govt.

[pefjr]

Not a different issue at all.
someone is being threatened for extradition for a crime that doesn't exist in the country he's in and he's never been to the US.
No different to the rape in marriage laws in Afghanistan, the US wont be chasing them for commiting crimes in their own country even if the act is illegal in the US.
The CIA agents example is right as well.

You are just trying to limit the discussion to your chosen terms and I'm not going to do that. Those analogies are quite relevant. If you don't agree with them then refute them!

You don't understand Copyright Law.

[Farfalla]

To quote from someone

Tra la la, twiddle-dee dee-dee

And you don't understand basic criminal law!
But white collar crime that affects a few rich has to take precedence after all this is the good old capitalist world. When the white collar crime affects the rich then it's the end of the world. When they commit it, "hey get over it it's just business"

[GaryK]

You don't understand Copyright Law.

It really should be about terrorists. I think the original treaty in the 1870's was about the IRA in the US, then in 2005 it became about the 9/11 terrorists. I guess the Brits never thought it would be about jay walking..

[pefjr]

And you don't understand basic criminal law!
But white collar crime that affects a few rich has to take precedence after all this is the good old capitalist world. When the white collar crime affects the rich then it's the end of the world. When they commit it, "hey get over it it's just business"

When you get through pulling your hair out, start some self focus training. Go back to the thread title and concentrate. You can catch up with us when you think you are ready to discuss the petition that ACB wants you to sign. Course you can sign it blind if you want, and skip out and go on a climb.

[Farfalla]

When you get through pulling your hair out, start some self focus training. Go back to the thread title and concentrate. You can catch up with us when you think you are ready to discuss the petition that ACB wants you to sign. Course you can sign it blind if you want, and skip out and go on a climb.

I have signed it! I do understand it. I think my perspective is probably a little different to yours, i'm not really a rednecked conservative american so i tend not to espouse their views!
When you finally take the time to understand the valid analogies you can catch up to the rest of us who seem to understand the wider implications of such practices and their impact.
I suppose you don't think the american courts applying patents on material that is not legally patentable in overseas countries and then US companies trying to force peole to accept their US patents is not another similar ana;ogy.
The arrogance and the ignorance of some people, especially the defenders of the Good Ole capitalist system is staggering at times!
i'm happy to let you do your catch up homework.

as for this

skip out and go on a climb.

That's pretty weak. You really couldn't think of anything better than that?

[pefjr]

I have signed it! I do understand it. I think my perspective is probably a little different to yours, i'm not really a rednecked conservative american so i tend not to espouse their views!
When you finally take the time to understand the valid analogies you can catch up to the rest of us who seem to understand the wider implications of such practices and their impact.
I suppose you don't think the american courts applying patents on material that is not legally patentable in overseas countries and then US companies trying to force peole to accept their US patents is not another similar ana;ogy.
The arrogance and the ignorance of some people, especially the defenders of the Good Ole capitalist system is staggering at times!
i'm happy to let you do your catch up homework.

as for this


That's pretty weak. You really couldn't think of anything better than that?

Did any of your friends ever call you 'scatter brain', I mean just as a friendly jab? You have succumbed to the ol anti -American dupe. Anyone that needs Farfall's vote, just present your argument with the anti-American slant and she is yours, why waste time on the issue.

[Garret]

Did any of your friends ever call you 'scatter brain', I mean just as a friendly jab? You have succumbed to the ol anti -American dupe. Anyone that needs Farfall's vote, just present your argument with the anti-American slant and she is yours, why waste time on the issue.

Huh?

What she's saying is (IMO) entirely valid. We've approached the world with a "It's the US way or the highway" attitude for far too long.

At the least, we need to practice what we preach. Even better - mind our own damn business.

[pefjr]

Huh?

What she's saying is (IMO) entirely valid. We've approached the world with a "It's the US way or the highway" attitude for far too long.

At the least, we need to practice what we preach. Even better - mind our own damn business.

IMO, The Anti- American shinola or in some cases, the truth, is for sale on every street corner of the world. You can buy it if you like. The courts will throw it out, but you still buy all you want. This issue is whether or not we want reciprocal copyright laws and that is the way it will be decided, not by petition, but by the desirability of Copyright Law. If you don't know how Copyright Law extends beyond the borders of a country in the free world, or how it protects, then you might try reading how it protects Creative Expression. If you know any Artist, Writer, Musician, Inventor, etc. ask them. Do you have any idea how many law suits are going on with Microsoft Corp. at anytime. Without Copyright Law, the US would not have a profitable company left. Soon, no one would. You could close half the courts of the world.

[Garret]

IMO, The Anti- American shinola or in some cases, the truth, is for sale on every street corner of the world. You can buy it if you like. The courts will throw it out, but you still buy all you want. This issue is whether or not we want reciprocal copyright laws and that is the way it will be decided, not by petition, but by the desirability of Copyright Law. If you don't know how Copyright Law extends beyond the borders of a country in the free world, or how it protects, then you might try reading how it protects Creative Expression. If you know any Artist, Writer, Musician, Inventor, etc. ask them. Do you have any idea how many law suits are going on with Microsoft Corp. at anytime. Without Copyright Law, the US would not have a profitable company left. Soon, no one would. You could close half the courts of the world.

As a person who writes copyrighted software, I'm all for copyright protection. However, it has to be fair protection & the US is seldom fair. Besides - they choose to pursue this with all the far more egregious Chinese infractions happening every day? Give me a break.

[Farfalla]

As a person who writes copyrighted software, I'm all for copyright protection. However, it has to be fair protection & the US is seldom fair. Besides - they choose to pursue this with all the far more egregious Chinese infractions happening every day? Give me a break.

They know that they can't score a publicity win against China, all they would do is make themselves look totally impotent. so instead they want to try and score a publicity coup by attacking a soft target.
US courts routinely approve patents by American companies that are not valid anywhere else and then the US companies bully poor countries into paying or else.
It's exactly the same thing.
Monsanto couldn't collect royalties from argentina which grows lots of Soy for animal feed, they won't accept US patents on natural genetic material. So monsanto took Danish pig farmers to court to try and get them to pay the money when they used Argentinian soy for pig food.

Monsanto patented a genetic variant in pigs that they claimed royalties on but german pig farmers were fighting them because they had pedigree records going back hundreds of years showing that they had bred pigs with that genetic variant.
in the 3rd world large agricompanies and pharamaceutical companies collect local material and patent it in US courts and then use US law to force the poor countries to pay royalties on products that exist naturally in their environment.
Don't whine to me about US copyright and how hard done by they are.
By the way I don't download any movies or anything so I'm not supporting pirates!

I'm not antiAmerican and this issue is not anti American, it's the abuse of American legal systems, with the support of american courts and legislation, to help large companies extort the weaker in the world in the name of capitalism.

[Garret]

Hey Sophie -

I hope the "Don't whine to me about US copyright and how hard done by they are" wasn't directed at me! We agree that US companies are pigs about this (pun intended...)

[Andrew Craig-Bennett]

just to clarify one point - see here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extradi...03#Controversy