Eric Hvalsoe and the HV-16

[BBSebens]

For those of us who insist on having two pointy ends, would it be possible to project the planking aft and fair in an aft stem? While the transom of the 16 is one of her best points, I think it'd look really sweet to the eye as a double ender.

Thoughts?

[Gerarddm]

Are you talking about simply extending the planking of a HV16 in a fair curve until they'd meet?

a) that would be one long boat. And you change a whole bunch of parameters.

b) if not, are you then are you talking about a stubby aft stem, sort of like a Colin Archer design? Not very pretty given the lines of the rest of the boat.

c) I don't think it's possible, the transom configuration is not changeable to a double ender just by extending the planking fairly.

[BBSebens]

Are you talking about simply extending the planking of a HV16 in a fair curve until they'd meet?

a) that would be one long boat. And you change a whole bunch of parameters.

b) if not, are you then are you talking about a stubby aft stem, sort of like a Colin Archer design? Not very pretty given the lines of the rest of the boat.

c) I don't think it's possible, the transom configuration is not changeable to a double ender just by extending the planking fairly.

I was mostly thinking extending the planking in a fair curve. It would be longer.. maybe 17.5, or 18'...

It was just a random thought I had. If I was actually going to attempt something like that, I'd commission Eric to actually draw something up. Which isn't going to happen anytime soon.

[Eric Hvalsoe]

I find that I mostly like rowing my Caledonia Yawl but I would like to try out your 16 Eric or James's Rowan, just for comparison sake.

Jim

Jim, or anybody else, remind me how wide the CY is. I'd fancy stepping from a CY into an HV 16 something like snuggling into an alfa romeo. I'm not disparaging any other boats - one of my field research tasks is to spend a little time rowing and sailing a nearby ness yawl, which I think is 5'4". The HV model has proportionally more wl than io's shetland derivitives, so I think the HV 19 would have at least as much waterline length as the CY and her ilk. Jim, about your CY, do you alternate between going out alone and going out, with a party? I mean, when and if the live load radically varies do you haul out a brick or two of ballast or otherwise try to keep the boat in about the same trim? Really this is just a question about bigger boats.

[BBSebens]

Ian's website lists the beam of a Caledonia Yawl as 6'2".

[Eric Hvalsoe]

Eric,

My gut reaction is that 5' is a little on the narrow side for a boat that long. That's a beam to length ratio (0.26) that is less than Bandwagon (0.28). While it would aid the rowing performance, I think it might have trouble standing up to the sail area you'd want to put on it. At 5'4" you are back to the same beam to length as the 16 footer (0.28). I know, given the same beam a longer boat will have more form stability, but it still seems a little narow to me

Alex, we're all fiddling around with this stuff are'nt we? I was surpised at how far you departed from the Alaska model with your recent drawings. Perhaps, as it took time for me to be persuaded of the merits of the lug rig, I am slowly nudging myself towards a wider boat. I will likely settle at 19 x 5'4", this will be the big boat, but I am very much tossing around parameters with other lengths as well. 18 feet for example, which is probably more my size, were I every to build another boat for myself. I think Don was on to something with Alaska - but I will go a little wider, I think between 4'10" and 5 maximum. My recollection is that you went even wider than that. I approach with caution - drawing a wider boat to stand up to more sail sounds a little bit like a circular firing squad, if she is for rowing as well. Which is not to invalidate the merits of breadth. I think you've got to thread the needle between wetted surface and the height of the sail plan and the shape of the midsection, you know all that stuff, as well as breadth in regards to stability and sail area.

Part of this may just be a matter of how much boat a fella wants to have to wander around in. There is the matter of capacity, but then there is just that sense of space - the difference between a big boat and a smaller boat. And that difference between a double ender and a transom stern. I love that I can stretch out across the main thwart of Bandwagon, brace my feet against the leeward rail, and hang my torso out a bit to windward - but it is not a boat I really walk around in.

[Eric Hvalsoe]

For those of us who insist on having two pointy ends, would it be possible to project the planking aft and fair in an aft stem? While the transom of the 16 is one of her best points, I think it'd look really sweet to the eye as a double ender.

Thoughts?

Hey, the joint's already overrun with pointy ended boats! Tell you what, when I get around to drawing one of those we'll do a postmortem to determine if in fact all I did was extend the lines of the 16, or the 13. I think drawing a double ended is relatively straightforward compared to hitting all the marks with a transom stern.

[jsjpd1]

Jim, or anybody else, remind me how wide the CY is. I'd fancy stepping from a CY into an HV 16 something like snuggling into an alfa romeo. I'm not disparaging any other boats - one of my field research tasks is to spend a little time rowing and sailing a nearby ness yawl, which I think is 5'4". The HV model has proportionally more wl than io's shetland derivitives, so I think the HV 19 would have at least as much waterline length as the CY and her ilk. Jim, about your CY, do you alternate between going out alone and going out, with a party? I mean, when and if the live load radically varies do you haul out a brick or two of ballast or otherwise try to keep the boat in about the same trim? Really this is just a question about bigger boats.

Ben's right, max beam is 6'2 for the CY. Out of curiosity I went and looked at the plans again the water line beam is 4'9" lightship and 4'11" at 1,100 lbs displacement.

Thinking about it, I'm probably out by myself around 40% of the time. I have a hundred fifty pounds of lead ballast bricks positioned on either side of the center board trimmed slightly bow down. They're bolted down on pads and stay there all the time. This seems to work out pretty well both when I'm by myself and out with others as the crew tend to gravitate towards the stern. When camping with the family I load the heavy gear next to and in front of the centerboard to compensate. All in all it works well.

Rowing works out the same way. The channel were I mostly play is maybe 1/4 mile wide or less at the upper end, about 3/4 mile wide at the bottom end and 10 miles long. With up to a 20-25 foot tide swing the current can move pretty good. I definitely pay attention to the tide and plan accordingly when I go out, but I can and do row against the tide. When I'm out with a crew we row in tandem.

Jim

[Eric Hvalsoe]

Interesting, thanks Jim. 150lbs total, or on each side? That's a lot of boat, 1100#. Tandem rowing - each rower with a set of oars . . .

[Yeadon]

Alex, we're all fiddling around with this stuff are'nt we? I was surpised at how far you departed from the Alaska model with your recent drawings. Perhaps, as it took time for me to be persuaded of the merits of the lug rig, I am slowly nudging myself towards a wider boat. I will likely settle at 19 x 5'4", this will be the big boat, but I am very much tossing around parameters with other lengths as well. 18 feet for example, which is probably more my size, were I every to build another boat for myself. I think Don was on to something with Alaska - but I will go a little wider, I think between 4'10" and 5 maximum. My recollection is that you went even wider than that. I approach with caution - drawing a wider boat to stand up to more sail sounds a little bit like a circular firing squad, if she is for rowing as well. Which is not to invalidate the merits of breadth. I think you've got to thread the needle between wetted surface and the height of the sail plan and the shape of the midsection, you know all that stuff, as well as breadth in regards to stability and sail area.

Part of this may just be a matter of how much boat a fella wants to have to wander around in. There is the matter of capacity, but then there is just that sense of space - the difference between a big boat and a smaller boat. And that difference between a double ender and a transom stern. I love that I can stretch out across the main thwart of Bandwagon, brace my feet against the leeward rail, and hang my torso out a bit to windward - but it is not a boat I really walk around in.

Your HV19 sounds like it will be a big boat as far as capacity, primarily due to the transom opening up all that space aft. Her cousins would probably live in the realm of a smallish CY, or a Welsford Pathfinder. I can't wait to see her.

The HV18 that you'd build for yourself ... 18' x 5' ... perhaps she is the Rowan-killer I seek.

So ... here's the proposed lineup?

HV13 ... 13 x 4'6 ... for daysails alone or with a friend, light campcruising.
HV16 ... 15'10 x 4'6 ... a lot more room, daysailing, solo campcruising, light expedition.
HV18 ... 18' x 5' ... a big-time solo campcruising and expedition hound, aka the solo boat to Alaska
HV19 ... 19' x 5'4 ... two or three person craft, built for expedition & campcruising, could handle a Honda 2.

Is that how you'd describe them?

[jsjpd1]

150 lbs. total Eric. 6- 25 lbs pigs, three on each side of the case. Ian recommends up to 200 lbs, I tried that for awhile and it was fine but a little sluggish. I scaled back to 150 when I went to a permanent bolted in mount. I also tried it out with no ballast, but that was too lively for me.

Tandem rowing is fun, and the crew like it because there are more jobs to go around. Sometimes I even get to just sit back and steer.

[jsjpd1]

Your HV19 sounds like it will be a big boat as far as capacity, primarily due to the transom opening up all that space aft. Her cousins would probably live in the realm of a smallish CY, or a Welsford Pathfinder. I can't wait to see her.

The HV18 that you'd build for yourself ... 18' x 5' ... perhaps she is the Rowan-killer I seek.

So ... here's the proposed lineup?

HV13 ... 13 x 4'6 ... for daysails alone or with a friend, light campcruising.
HV16 ... 15'10 x 4'6 ... a lot more room, daysailing, solo campcruising, light expedition.
HV18 ... 18' x 5' ... a big-time solo campcruising and expedition hound, aka the solo boat to Alaska
HV19 ... 19' x 5'4 ... two or three person craft, built for expedition & campcruising, could handle a Honda 2.

Is that how you'd describe them?

When you describe them like that it makes me kind of want one too.

[Eric Hvalsoe]

That's a good summary. Although the breadth of the CY gives me pause. But I don't quite think that is what I'm going for.

[Otter99]

Eric,

Do you have a time-frame for designing/building the HV18? When will you have some drawings? Sure would like to see them.

Dan

[Autonomous]

Eric,

Do you have a time-frame for designing/building the HV18? When will you have some drawings? Sure would like to see them.

Dan

That's the one that I'd like to see be developed too, FWIW.

[Eric Hvalsoe]

. . . seems to be some interest in the 18. The goal is ultimately to sell a greater variety of plans, but I make a living repairing, restoring and building boats. The design work has to fit in between that, and other activities as well. I don't have the luxury of a commission. We made a good stab at the first draft for the 19. Round two, than on to the next hull. All comments are appreciated. I can't say there is a deadline, but I'll work on the project over the winter. If you've know me awhile, about about now you are wearing a rueful smile. These particular designs will be of round bottom form, my default tends to be lapstrake - traditional or ply is another interesting question. That does not particularly affect the basic lines, but it does effect the details. I may or may not build a hull for myself. My passion is with cedar lap, the bulk of interest from the homebuilders perspective is probably with ply. That said, people have specifically sought out plans for the 16 to execute in traditional plank on frame. More power to them. Prices for epoxy, and high quality marine mahogany plywood, have steadily increased. Prices for top notch domestic softwoods are high, but have been relatively level for awhile.

Dan, you did just an awesome job on your boat.

[Otter99]

Thank you Eric. I appreciate the compliment. I hope someone steps forward and commissions a HV18 from you. I have seen and rowed your boats for quite a while now (at the Center for Wooden Boats). You have the eye, skill, and knowledge to create the regional “… big-time solo camp-cruising and expedition hound”. You also know the watery landscape around here and the demands it can put on a boat. It would be a Salish Sea classic. I’d really love to see that. -Dan

[WI-Tom]

I don't have the luxury of a commission.

Hmm...

I wonder if that could be fixed by a bunch of enthusiasts banding together in a group commission. I nominate all you PNW guys--go to it!

Tom

[BBSebens]

Thanks for the support Tom. Feelin' the love.

Honestly, I don't know if that would be a good idea. A commission might actually mess up Eric's method, and we don't want that. Better to be patient and allow the Hvalsoe to reveal itself slowly and perfectly as its ready.

[Eric Hvalsoe]

Oh what the hell maybe ben is right. But I still glean something from folks comments.
Now I just want to load some video from barkley sound, easy iphone straight to youtube, you think?
usernames passwords shortcuts accounts home pages profiles defaults mouse clicks yadda yadda yadda
This stuff can stop me cold.

[Yeadon]

Critical research and development, captured via film.

[BBSebens]

Thats some serious research. Riveting stuff.

[James McMullen]

Please tell me he's wearing that Emerald Marine cap I lent to him.

[Yeadon]

Nope. I think it had some sort of Salish design on it.

[Eric Hvalsoe]

A shirt you gave me, but the cap you took back. This particular cap courtesy of Stuart Island - that was a riveting trip. Oh heck, why not a double ender too.