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Thread: Eric Hvalsoe and the HV-16

  1. #151
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    Default Re: Eric Hvalsoe and the HV-16

    Alex,
    Flagging tape. I'll check that out. For some reason I don't remember looking at your line - but I do remember thinking that your intervals were unique. Maybe this is the feathery thing in the back of my brain.

    Pyschotropic fishing line in Oz!

  2. #152
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    Default Re: Eric Hvalsoe and the HV-16

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterSibley View Post
    Thanks for this photo , the same thing on the luff will be the way I go on JIM.
    Peter - it appears that that Rowan, Big Food, and Bandwagon (can't speak for Alex), now all have a differient variation for reefing arrangements on the mainsail luff. When I found a carabiner large enough to stack three grommets, I decided to park it on the first luff reef grommet, same as the leech. I did not want this large grommet flopping around at the boom end. On the down side this requires adding another small cleat on the boom. On the up side, my arrangement on the luff consists of a single length of line from the carabiner, through a beehole at the tip of the boom, and back to a cleat. A lot like the leech, but simpler. I'll get a picture up sometime.

    At the luff, it is possible to just pull the tack of the sail down to the corner of the boom.

    At the leech, you are pulling the clew of the sail both down and aft for outhaul tension. The reefing line starts as a loop around the boom - this loop should have some travel, its location will be adjusted as you go from one reef to another. You become aware of directionality and hardware orientation to get things to pull just right.

  3. #153
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    Default Re: Eric Hvalsoe and the HV-16

    A view of Bandwagon's mizzen step arrangement. In some ways it would have been easier to plant the mizzen in the middle of the stern seating area - a plywood mast partner spanning under the existing seating and a simple step planted on the keel apron. I then would have had to rethink how I use and access the area for storage.

    The partner consists of a spruce and plywood lamination secured to the transom seating cleat and an additional knee. The 'step' is a small section of aluminum angle. Since the picture was taken a pin has been threaded onto the angle piece. The pin fits into a bushing set into the base of the mast. This was the beta set up, thus aluminum, but I see no reason to change it. It could have been done in bronze. This is an odd corner, it remains open without creating any dirt or debris traps. A quick release middle stern seat panel is cut out for the small elevated step.


  4. #154
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    Default Re: Eric Hvalsoe and the HV-16

    So your mizzen is slightly off-center?
    Member of the Loyal, Mostly-Noble, Elite and Most Ancient order of the Laughing Polar Bear Cap Society.

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  5. #155
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    Default Re: Eric Hvalsoe and the HV-16

    Quote Originally Posted by BBSebens View Post
    So your mizzen is slightly off-center?
    Ya. Part of my description would make more sense with a picture of the stern sheets and quick release center panel in place. I'll work on it.

    This is an unobtrusive solution in an area that was already carefully laid out. Aesthetics and function go hand in hand.

  6. #156
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    Default Re: Eric Hvalsoe and the HV-16

    You'll find that once you heave-to and weathercock that your boat will start to drift backwards. The helm will flop to one side or another and she'll hunt back and forth a bit. Having your mizzen a touch off center doesn't make that much of a difference. And Hvalsoe's is like an inch off center, which on a little boat like ours is basically on center - especially as you run for and aft and the balance is always moving.
    Quote Originally Posted by James McMullen View Post
    Yeadon is right, of course.

  7. #157
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    Default Re: Eric Hvalsoe and the HV-16

    Quote Originally Posted by Yeadon View Post
    You'll find that once you heave-to and weathercock that your boat will start to drift backwards. The helm will flop to one side or another and she'll hunt back and forth a bit.
    I know this very very well now. It can help greatly (getting out of irons) or be a major PITA (keeping you beam to the wind when raising sail).

    Quote Originally Posted by Yeadon View Post
    And Hvalsoe's is like an inch off center, which on a little boat like ours is basically on center - especially as you run for and aft and the balance is always moving.
    I was just about to say this... An inch off center matters little unless the loading on the boat is perfectly symmetrical athwartships, and never moves. I'd call BS on anyone who thinks they'd ever notice any effect from it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Yeadon View Post
    Double-enders are optimistic.

  8. #158
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    Default Re: Eric Hvalsoe and the HV-16

    Quote Originally Posted by bott View Post
    It can help greatly (getting out of irons) or be a major PITA (keeping you beam to the wind when raising sail).
    Eric, I remember that you have notches under your steer-stick to index the rudder straight for times like this. Do you other guys do something similar? It seems another good benefit of the stick over a tiller - no need for a tiller-tamer bungie across the boat.
    A small sailing craft is not only beautiful, it is seductive and full of strange promise and the hint of trouble. -- E.B. White

  9. #159
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    Default Re: Eric Hvalsoe and the HV-16

    For me being able to set the rudder is mandatory. For heaving to in the manner Tim describes, I don't want the rudder jacking back and forth or slamming against the transom. Maybe other folks just go with the flow - I set the rudder and pushstick with my saddle pin arrangement. If I had a tiller, I'd use a bungee cord. I'm still getting the hang of heaving to with this boat. It requires just the right tick of the rudder and stick, just so on mizzen trim, and a certain sense of timing. Early efforts often sent the boat onto the other tack.

    I can't imagine the barely off center mizzen position makes a bit of difference.

    It is interesting that my approximately 10 sq ft mizzen is Tim's former mizzen for Big Food. It is set further aft in Bandwagon, and seems to do the trick for trimming and heaving to. Horsepower not so much, but this seems not to be needed.

    I love being able to sail hands off, sometimes for quite long stretches.

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    Default Re: Eric Hvalsoe and the HV-16

    Quote Originally Posted by sailoar View Post
    Eric, I remember that you have notches under your steer-stick to index the rudder straight for times like this. Do you other guys do something similar? It seems another good benefit of the stick over a tiller - no need for a tiller-tamer bungie across the boat.
    Depending on the boat's layout, you can do a notched comb with a conventional tiller, too. No need for bungies. (Someday I may be convinced the merits of the push-pull tiller outweight the features I don't like, but I'm not going to give away any easy points...)

    Tom
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    Default Re: Eric Hvalsoe and the HV-16

    A tiller comb would be more convenient than a bungee - if you had a tiller, and if you had an aft deck upon which to set the comb.

    I think the choice of steering mechanism has to do, among other things, with where you want to drive the boat, your boat, from. I'm all over the place. I spend plenty of time in the aft cockpit area. Then again I sometimes drive from the midship thwart, or even settle down further forward. It depends on load, trim, point of sail, and conditions. A nine foot tiller is out of the question, A long tiller and long extension sounds awkward (although someone will probably try it). Bandwagon has no deck for a tiller comb. Oops, and there is the matter of the mizzen. That pretty much leaves me with either rope steering or pushstick. I'm staying pushstick.
    Last edited by Eric Hvalsoe; 12-06-2012 at 04:26 PM.

  12. #162
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    Default Re: Eric Hvalsoe and the HV-16

    I never would have imagined that being an inch or two off center would make a functional difference.
    Member of the Loyal, Mostly-Noble, Elite and Most Ancient order of the Laughing Polar Bear Cap Society.

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  13. #163
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    Default Re: Eric Hvalsoe and the HV-16

    Quote Originally Posted by BBSebens View Post
    I never would have imagined that being an inch or two off center would make a functional difference.
    I understand. You were just asking. Sometime you'll have to tell about the polar bear society.

  14. #164

    Default Re: Eric Hvalsoe and the HV-16

    Yeadon jokes about waiting for the Hvalsoe 19. Are you designing a larger sail and oar boat?

  15. #165
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    Default Re: Eric Hvalsoe and the HV-16

    That is nice of you to ask Blueridge. Yes the taunts have some effect. I have developed a set of lines for a 19' by 5' hull. At least, I am carrying on with developing them. I may tweak the fullness in the stern ever so slightly, run a few calculations, sketch out a sailplan. I'm not using a computer. I am driving at the purist sail and oar ethic for the next design or two. This is just the challenge I've taken on at the moment, not the only kind of boat I will ever have any interest in. I have enjoyed quite a few different kinds of boats in my life. I also think 18 ft is a good target for this sort of thing, particularly for a solo adventurer. Too bad a fella's gotta work in the meantime.
    Cheers,

  16. #166
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    Default Re: Eric Hvalsoe and the HV-16

    Hurray!!
    Member of the Loyal, Mostly-Noble, Elite and Most Ancient order of the Laughing Polar Bear Cap Society.

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    Default Re: Eric Hvalsoe and the HV-16

    The lines for the 19 are real ... and they're spectacular.
    Quote Originally Posted by James McMullen View Post
    Yeadon is right, of course.

  18. #168

    Default Re: Eric Hvalsoe and the HV-16

    Can you share what you have learned from your Hvalsoe 16, and how that informs your design of the Hvalsoe 19?
    Last edited by blueridgebuilder; 12-11-2012 at 04:05 AM.

  19. #169
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    Default Re: Eric Hvalsoe and the HV-16

    Got the question. I'll throw out some sort of intelligent response shortly.
    From morning coffee on my iPhone

  20. #170
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    Default Re: Eric Hvalsoe and the HV-16

    Let's finish the tour of Bandwagon, complete the thought so to speak, before I get into lessons learned.

    Previously I showed some detail of the mizzen step. Four years ago I was not imagining a mizzen, much less a boomkin. Yet I find the boomkin to be very little trouble.





    The camera angle exaggerates things a bit in the second picture, but you get the idea. The boomkin overhang is about three feet. I have found it is wise to have a bit more boomkin past the turning block - the sheet occasionally loops around the tail which is not good.

    The mizzen sprit yard is fine - but with a bigger sail plan, possibly sometime even with this rig on Bandwagon, I might favor a conventional jawed boom to manage one reef position. Maybe I've been out in 20 knots, reefing the mizzen not yet an issue.

  21. #171
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    Default Re: Eric Hvalsoe and the HV-16

    I always enjoy how Eric makes beta parts before really changing things up on Bandwagon.

    I tend to sketch, then pattern, then make new parts and hope for the best. My time isn't worth that much. I can just make another new piece. However, Eric is really thorough. He'll stare at it, draw it, talk it through, sleep on it, make a pattern, then make a beta model out of cheap pine, test it, tweak it, then once he's finally ready - he'll make the real piece and install it.
    Quote Originally Posted by James McMullen View Post
    Yeadon is right, of course.

  22. #172
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    Default Re: Eric Hvalsoe and the HV-16

    Quote Originally Posted by Yeadon View Post
    I always enjoy how Eric makes beta parts before really changing things up on Bandwagon.

    I tend to sketch, then pattern, then make new parts and hope for the best. My time isn't worth that much. I can just make another new piece. However, Eric is really thorough. He'll stare at it, draw it, talk it through, sleep on it, make a pattern, then make a beta model out of cheap pine, test it, tweak it, then once he's finally ready - he'll make the real piece and install it.
    Tim warned me about the sheet looping around the end of the boomkin . . .

  23. #173
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    Default Re: Eric Hvalsoe and the HV-16

    Maybe you can invent the cordless bluetooth mizzen. Guaranteed to never foul when you least expect it.
    Quote Originally Posted by James McMullen View Post
    Yeadon is right, of course.

  24. #174
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    Default Re: Eric Hvalsoe and the HV-16

    Maybe you need a small diameter piece of bungy cord with a loop on the end, round the sheet and lead from the sheet down to the boomkin, kind of like a barberhaul or a vang
    Alex

    "A man who is not afraid of the sea will soon be drowned, for he will be going out on a day he shouldn't. We do be afraid of the sea, and we only be drowned now and again" Aran Islands Fisherman

  25. #175
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    Default Re: Eric Hvalsoe and the HV-16

    I'm using a dumb sheave instead of a block on my boomkin hoping it's even more foolproof and un-foulable. A sail with an area unde 20 sf really doesn't need any respect.
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  26. #176
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    Default Re: Eric Hvalsoe and the HV-16

    An actual block for this bitty mizzen and sheet is overkill, it was just a piece laying around the shop, hell this thing could run through a nicely radiused strapeye - or a dumb sheave. I don't know if that would be less likely to foul, I may change it out. It would help if the boomkin run several inches past the sheet. Of course I could move the block or whatever forward - but I've got a good angle as it is. I sort of get the barberhauler idea. That's another string. Well, this is why we call it a BETA BOOMKIN.

    At the forward tip the boomkin is position with a simple pin between inwale and plank. Back end is set with a spring pin through the quarter knee (a bronze bushing is set in the knee). The thing is also lashed off to the inwale.

  27. #177
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    Default Re: Eric Hvalsoe and the HV-16

    The angle of attachment between the bee-hole at the end of the mizzen and your mizzen boom can help prevent fouling the mizzen sheet. If your sheet is made fast to the boom at a spot which is aft of the end of the mizzen, then you're more likely to get fouled while on a gybe. This is because as you gybe, there's a ton of free line that slacks and has to run past the mizzen to your next tack. If the boom's attachment is aft of the bee-hole, then the free line sweeps behind the end of the mizzen. It'll actually wrap behind and under the mizzen. This is when the damn thing loops itself around the mizzen and fouls. Very awkward!

    (Where is Bott to provide the illustration?)

    If the sheet is attached at a point well forward of the end of the mizzen, then the line is generally dragged across the mizzen - but more important, it's dragged forward of the bee-hole. It doesn't have have a chance to flop behind the mizzen and loop itself around the spar. Woo-hoo!

    One concern here, though, is making sure the line isn't attached to the boom too far forward. This robs you of much of your actual leverage and ability to properly sheet that mizzen in tight to center.

    (Again, Bott?)

    Neither placements however seem to prevent "the old wrap the mizzen sheet around the push-pull tiller yolk" situation, which usually forces me to hurry back and unhook the damn thing before broaching.

    I can only hope this post made sense.
    Quote Originally Posted by James McMullen View Post
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  28. #178
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    Default Re: Eric Hvalsoe and the HV-16

    Does your mizzen sheet foul a lot Tim? I have had mine foul a couple times, but not to the point where I couldn't still adjust it.

    Jim
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    Default Re: Eric Hvalsoe and the HV-16

    Not so much since I fixed the sheeting angle between the boom and the end of the mizzen, but it still happens. I just scramble back and flop the mizzen back once or twice and the sheet comes untangled. It doesn't happen every time out, but it is something I have to be aware of if I'm continually gybing.

    I've seen it happen at one time or another to pretty much everyone with a mizzen.
    Quote Originally Posted by James McMullen View Post
    Yeadon is right, of course.

  30. #180
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    Default Re: Eric Hvalsoe and the HV-16

    Maybe the fouling problem is why Oughtred did not draw a boomkin for the Arctic Tern or Ness Yawl, at the expense of sheeting leverage.
    A small sailing craft is not only beautiful, it is seductive and full of strange promise and the hint of trouble. -- E.B. White

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    Default Re: Eric Hvalsoe and the HV-16

    The sheet would still catch now and again on the rudder head and/or the push-pull tiller's yolk. But then, I have no idea why he didn't add a boomkin to the plans. You might be right.

    I do think the boomkin's increased sheeting leverage is more than a fair trade off. I ran a mizzen for a year or so without a boomkin, and Big Food's weathercocking ability wasn't nearly what it is now.

    One other thing ... the boomkin sure looks cool!
    Quote Originally Posted by James McMullen View Post
    Yeadon is right, of course.

  32. #182
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    Default Re: Eric Hvalsoe and the HV-16

    Without a stinger, it ain't no honey bee!

    Iain Oughtred, living God though he is, has been known to get a few of the details wrong now and again. That's okay, a boomkin is easy enough to add.
    If this post did not meet all of your needs, please consult this thread for more options.

  33. #183
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    Default Re: Eric Hvalsoe and the HV-16

    With a sprit boom the sheet gets pushed out there near the end of the stick - so as not to foul the foot of the sail. Mid boom sheeting makes more sense with a conventional jawed boom on the mizzen, which might put you closer to the rudderhead for leading the sheet. I've also come to think of the mizzen as a glorified whip antenna. I was anxious about the amount of bury - seems to be ok. The mizzen will spill some wind when she needs to.

    Boomkin - figure a good sheeting angle, make 'er a few inches longer.
    Last edited by Eric Hvalsoe; 12-18-2012 at 07:57 PM.

  34. #184
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    Default Re: Eric Hvalsoe and the HV-16

    Egads, a photo of a piece of paper.

    From Bandwagon to final plan, main clew peaked up a touch, foot of mizzen brought down more parallel to sheer.



  35. #185
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    Default Re: Eric Hvalsoe and the HV-16

    Sections! We want sections!
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    Default Re: Eric Hvalsoe and the HV-16

    For $130, you can have them mailed directly to you.
    Quote Originally Posted by James McMullen View Post
    Yeadon is right, of course.

  37. #187
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    Default Re: Eric Hvalsoe and the HV-16

    I'm getting close to the line here, prices updated upon inquiry. In my frustrated state of author/
    instructor I've written several pages to go along with the plan sets, including a construction
    sequence that covers some of my particular boatbuilding techniques. I think it will be helpful.

    It looks like the camera foreshortened the transom rake - she's got a little more whoosh than that.

    The last possible modification I can imagine making to Bandwagon, would be to meld the fore and aft oarlock pads into one piece along the sheer. A cap of sorts, visually balanced just right, through about the middle 2/3 of the boat. Proportionally it would be biased aft. It would have to be done without throwing off the existing lines, and the complex curves that blend through the breasthook, quarterknees and transom. This midcap (got a better name?) would effectively add almost 1 1/2" of freeboard in the middle of boat, where she would take a drink if pushed too hard. It would further strenghen the sheer and fight the leverage of the oarlocks. Someday perhaps. Maybe you can imagine what I'm talking about.
    Last edited by Eric Hvalsoe; 12-18-2012 at 11:44 PM.

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    Default Re: Eric Hvalsoe and the HV-16

    Do you ever hike out while sailing? If so, would midcaps interfere?

    -Chris

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    Default Re: Eric Hvalsoe and the HV-16

    Quote Originally Posted by csmead View Post
    Do you ever hike out while sailing? If so, would midcaps interfere?

    -Chris
    Good question. Actually, no. I never sit on the rails. I usually get the stability I need in a fresh breeze by getting up on the thwarts. My version of hiking out is to sprawl across the main thwart, which in Bandwagon is a very wide comfortable surface, and extend my torso out a bit to windward. One way in which I appreciate the way the 16 'fits' me, is to lay across the main thwart in this position with my feet braced against the leeward rail and thwart knees. In that sense, I think the slightly sloped inboard face of the midcap would feel ok against my back, it might even give me little more support leaning out. That is something to consider.

    It is a little hard to make out, but the inboard face of the pad does slope back a touch. The oarlock
    sockets would not be as near the ends of this theoretical midcap, and I think the ends would have greater slope in profile.



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    Default Re: Eric Hvalsoe and the HV-16

    Bandwagon, and I believe boats of this type and size in general, are trim sensitive. When it is only you in the boat, your placement accounts for thier behavior to a noticable degree. In that way these craft are no different than 'high performance' dinghies. I think this nuance and flexibility is part of the reward, part of the challenge, and part of getting to know your boat. How the boat pitches has much to do with ground made good to windward and dryness. In turn, pitching is greatly influenced by sea state and boat trim. It is a great thrill to get Bandwagon up on her feet driving hard to windward in a bit of a Salish Sea mess, very little roll or pitch, very little spray. That's living. In such a scenario single handing, I might be stretched out on that main thwart. Occasionally I sit just forward. Sitting aft is for sailing off the wind. You play this balance game to some extent with two people, but of course in that case the boat becomes less sensitive to the movement of only one.

    I wonder what other folks out there are really most interested in. My current obsession for sail and oar aside for the moment, how do other people wish to use traditional styled craft in the 16 to 20 ft range.
    From Whitehall slayers to more commodious camp cruisers, there are a lot of potential targets.

  41. #191
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    Default Re: Eric Hvalsoe and the HV-16

    From Sailing Yacht Design by Douglas Phillips-Birt (first edition 1951, last appended 1971)

    The ideal designer of sailing yachts is a magnificent creature who is at once a hydrodynamist, an aerodynamist, an engineer, a practical boatbuilder, an experienced seaman under sail, and an artist. The last qualification is nebulous and unteachable, but it is no less than the cement holding together the other qualifications and making them serviceable.

    For the capital problem in the design of a sailing yacht is the multiplicity of the factors involved, which make it impossible to rationalise the activity and reduce it, except in the broadest terms, into a system that may be applied by rule. It used to be said that Best Boat = Best Hull + Best Rig. Research has now shown that this was a convenient over- simplification and the equation must be rewritten Best Boat = Best (Hull + Rig) Combination. This adds yet further to the tumult of variables through which an architect has to find his way partly by faith in his star, by a sense of direction that is instinctive rather than rational.

    Good night and good luck,
    Christmas Eve 2012

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    Default Re: Eric Hvalsoe and the HV-16

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Hvalsoe View Post


    I think you qualify as an artist Eric.

    Merry Christmas.
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  43. #193

    Default Re: Eric Hvalsoe and the HV-16

    So what about it Eric... How far off is that Hvalsoe 19? Will you build it your self before you publish the lines etc? Beam?

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    Default Re: Eric Hvalsoe and the HV-16

    If the 19 is as good looking as the 16, I will need to factor in the cost of increasing the length of my little shop to accommodate a build. :-)
    Gerard>
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  45. #195

    Default

    I have the plans for the 16 and they are awesome. Eric really explains things well and his construction sequence will prove to be very valuable to me once my build starts. My work area will be my new garage which I think is getting poured this week. I move in next month. I have just enough room I think to build a 19' but just not sure if I will have the patience to wait.

  46. #196
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Shoreline, Washington
    Posts
    1,633

    Default Re: Eric Hvalsoe and the HV-16

    I am flattered anybody is asking, and thank you for the kind review of the 16 package. That means a lot to me. The first set of lines for the 19 remain at 5 feet in breadth. I may push that fout to, oh, 5'4". I think at this size one is beginning to go a number of different directions. I saw a picture of fellow at the oars of a caledonia - it looked cumbersome. Beam is what I turn over and over again most in my mind.

    I think there needs to be an addition or two between 16 and 19 feet. The lines of the nineteen will be faired through - she will be beautiful and very much in the family tradition.

  47. #197
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Juneau, Alaska
    Posts
    2,125

    Default Re: Eric Hvalsoe and the HV-16

    I find that I mostly like rowing my Caledonia Yawl but I would like to try out your 16 Eric or James's Rowan, just for comparison sake.

    Jim
    Eternal optimist and a slow learner.
    19'6" Caledonia Yawl ~ Sparrow
    SOF Ruth Wherry
    and a new SOF Whitehall too.

  48. #198
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    Victoria, BC, Canada
    Posts
    582

    Default Re: Eric Hvalsoe and the HV-16

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Hvalsoe View Post
    I am flattered anybody is asking, and thank you for the kind review of the 16 package. That means a lot to me. The first set of lines for the 19 remain at 5 feet in breadth. I may push that fout to, oh, 5'4". I think at this size one is beginning to go a number of different directions. I saw a picture of fellow at the oars of a caledonia - it looked cumbersome. Beam is what I turn over and over again most in my mind.
    Eric,

    My gut reaction is that 5' is a little on the narrow side for a boat that long. That's a beam to length ratio (0.26) that is less than Bandwagon (0.28). While it would aid the rowing performance, I think it might have trouble standing up to the sail area you'd want to put on it. At 5'4" you are back to the same beam to length as the 16 footer (0.28). I know, given the same beam a longer boat will have more form stability, but it still seems a little narow to me
    Alex

    "A man who is not afraid of the sea will soon be drowned, for he will be going out on a day he shouldn't. We do be afraid of the sea, and we only be drowned now and again" Aran Islands Fisherman

  49. #199

    Default

    Alaska is if I recall correctly the same beam at the hv-16 while being 2' longer...

    18'-1". 4'-6.5"

  50. #200
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    Victoria, BC, Canada
    Posts
    582

    Default Re: Eric Hvalsoe and the HV-16

    Quote Originally Posted by Weekender View Post
    Alaska is if I recall correctly the same beam at the hv-16 while being 2' longer...

    18'-1". 4'-6.5"
    Yes, and it's tenderer than I would like it to be for the sail area
    Alex

    "A man who is not afraid of the sea will soon be drowned, for he will be going out on a day he shouldn't. We do be afraid of the sea, and we only be drowned now and again" Aran Islands Fisherman

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