Eric Hvalsoe and the HV-16

[James McMullen]

If Eric doesn't show up with more pictures soon himself, never fear! I plan on taking lots of them this weekend when I meet him afloat somewhere along the northern reaches of Rosario Strait on Saturday evening.

I hope to get some good sailing video as well, of course. And we have to pick out a proper theme song for the video.

But in accordance with the standard WBF policy of an "overwhelming barrage of negative criticism", I have to point out that in all these years, Eric still hasn't come up with a specific name for his little lady. We end up just calling her "Eric's boat", because she doesn't have a proper name. What the hell, Eric?!? Quit slacking in this department, or we're going to have to stage an intervention or omething and name her for you! So help me, I'll put up a poll or something, and let even the Bilge Rats vote on it! C'mon, nobody wants that to have to happen!

[Capt Zatarra]

I have been paying attention. (thanks James for kickstarting the thread) and I really admire your work. So I have a question and I hope you will indulge me. Theoretically, assuming you are using hondo mahagany for the planks, and you are striving to reduce the weight as mush as possible, what is the thinnest plank thickness you would attempt on your HV 13'? Thank you in advance and thanks for sharing your work. Capt. Zatarra

[Yeadon]

If Eric doesn't show up with more pictures soon himself, never fear! I plan on taking lots of them this weekend when I meet him afloat somewhere along the northern reaches of Rosario Strait on Saturday evening.

I hope to get some good sailing video as well, of course. And we have to pick out a proper theme song for the video.

But in accordance with the standard WBF policy of an "overwhelming barrage of negative criticism", I have to point out that in all these years, Eric still hasn't come up with a specific name for his little lady. We end up just calling her "Eric's boat", because she doesn't have a proper name. What the hell, Eric?!? Quit slacking in this department, or we're going to have to stage an intervention or omething and name her for you! So help me, I'll put up a poll or something, and let even the Bilge Rats vote on it! C'mon, nobody wants that to have to happen!

Eric did name his boat a number of years ago. I think it was "Elysium," referring to a place or condition of ideal happiness. I however continue to refer to his boat as the HVALSOE 9000.

I think we'll need a poll ...

[Eric Hvalsoe]

Elysium is the closest I've coming to naming the boat. From a Mary Chapin Carpenter tune. But this clearly is not masculine enough, just sentimental and beautiful.

Yep, packing up for the shake down cruise this weekend. I'll have to get back in the groove next week.
Ruthlessly honest appraisals of the new rig, skeg reconfigurations, European interpretations, notions about construction and design, collisions, mmm

Addendum to desciption of trailer - my 2 x 6 flatbed is basically two feet wide - just right for lashing a fender port and starboard to the platform, thus stabilizing the boat with a little bilge support on the road. The plank keel is just wide enough so that the boat pretty well sits upright anyhow. No fitting fussy cradle sections.

Glad you enjoyed the sail John. Too early to say what the standard rig is, but Tim is probably right, the lug will likely remain my rig. I'll draw up all the variations to suit different interests.

Hvalsoe 9000 is somebodys inside joke which I never entirely understood - but might have something to do with 2001 A Space Odyssey.

CZ - Plank thickness of traditional lapstrake has to do with the geometry of the laps and not wanting to get too thin and delicate for fastening. The geometry of the laps also has to do with the number of strakes. I've built my boats with 10, and now 9 strakes. With my current line off, I would hardly go less than 3/8". You might get by with 5/16", but I think some of those laps would be getting pretty thin midships.

[James McMullen]

As promised, some pics of Bandwagon under sail with the new rig:

[James McMullen]

And how about a few more of her at rest? Here's Clark Island in the evening:





And here's Pelican Beach at a lunch break:







From this perspective, the new rig seems like an unqualified success. Let's see what Eric himself has to say.

[Eric Hvalsoe]

Thanks James,

You can have a place to windward to get to, and get there, with this set up.

First impressions seems to point as well as any modern rig in my experience, really quite amazing. Excellant control, particularly noticable downwind (of course my previous boomless spritsail is at its worse directly downwind, emphasize boomless). Nice job on the lug by Jim Kitchen of Puget Sound Sails. Possible to reef in one minute or less. First time I've seen the rig underway from afar. Yeadon's previous mizzen - works fine, keeps head to in even light wind, might look a little sharper on my boat with a couple of extra feet. Absolutely luxurious having a conventional main sheet with cam cleat, a snap to use, and not underfoot. Revised drawing I might give the boom a slightly higher kick at the clew, and just a pinch higher peak. More headroom would be nice, however I don't want to significantly raise the center of effort. There is room to comfortably stand in the aft portion of the cockpit with the boom swinging free in front of you. Visability and boom clearance of course fine when down low in the boat. She has that 'Atkin' proportion - without a body for reference, she could be a much bigger boat. Boy she looks sleek in profile. 80 sq ft on the main feels right. Currently 10 ft on the mizzen.

[Yeadon]

Northbound on Rosario.

[Yeadon]

I was pretty impressed by Eric's new lug yawl rig. His boat was never slow with the sprit rig, but he certainly could point higher and move quicker with his new balance lug. At the moment, the HV16 and Big Food are pretty well matched in speed.

Also, it's really handy to have a boom on a small boat ... primarily since you can backwind and ware-off when necessary. For instance, I got stuck in an whirly-tidal-eddy of converging currents off the eastern tip of Orcas Island. (Is that Point Lawrence? I can't remember.)

There were little logs, giant clumps of seaweed and scattered flotsam everywhere that kept fouling my rudder and centerboard foil, so I wasn't planning on getting up a head of steam to bust through the counter-currents. (Not much wind, anyways.) Instead, after a couple of failed efforts of tacking through, I was able to sail up the line, ease my sails to bring me to a stop, then backwind my main and ware off backwards through the eddy line to cleaner water. Probably not the most graceful maneuver of all time, but it was effective. Gotta love lug yawls.

[James McMullen]

Okay then! Here's some more video of Bandwagon under sail. Not too much wind to play with, I'm afraid, but there are some interesting hydraulics out in the middle of Rosario Strait even on a very moderate ebb like this one.

[Gerarddm]

Eric, explain the reason for the significant mizzen rake?

BTW James, Bandwagon, v funny. Hah!

[potomac]

Looks great- alas, no theme music.

[Eric Hvalsoe]

That's a nice bit of video.

The mizzen rakes steeply because it is nearly all the way aft. It still has about ten degrees less rake than the transom. It would have been simpler to plant the mizzen in the middle of the stern seat, but for several reasons I stepped as far aft as possible, essentially mounting to the transom. I'll bring some pictures up.


We were discussing names on the beach. Tim said Hvalsoe Wagon, which sounded silly to me, if not referential. I think that night it came to me, Bandwagon. It has movement, it is musical, it says something to me about freedom, it has just a little bit of attitude, I can't recall seeing the name on another boat, and you can make a silly pun, as in, get on . . .

I think I like it.

I love looking at these three boats along the beach. They each are great studies in line and proportion.
In some ways I find Big Food the most evocative on the water. I just feel like I've been transported in time and am shadowing a pirate ship. Something about the lofty rig, dark hull, and New England uprightness.

I was not sure that I would keep up with Tim and that lofty rig. It is interesting to compare numbers.
Rowan of course is a substancially bigger boat - length, breadth, sail area, you name it. Something close to 19 x 5+ x 120 sq ft? Longer waterline therefore greater speed potential - an optimally tuned rig and arrangement keeps her up to snuff. I recall James quoting 350 lbs hull weight, possibly including ballast optimally located to help keep the boat on her feet.

Comparing my raking ends (15'10" LOA) and Tims's upright stem's, Big Food and Bandwagon must have very nearly the same waterline length, therefore the same speed potential under displacement conditions. My boat is 4'6" nominal maximum beam, I think Big Food is4'9" or 10". I shall be corrected. Our boats probably have similiar form stability - stability due to the shape of the midsection.
My hull weight is 250 lbs, entirely unballasted. We estimate Big Food at 350 or so. I really don't know - she is heavy, it would be interesting to nail that down sometime, she might be close to Rowan in weight. Tim now has 100+ sq ft. I have 90 sq ft (main and mizzen). This weekend, all in all, the two boats appeared to be in a dead heat on the water. I think Big Food's weight will favor her in some conditions, my lighter weight may favor in others. Both boat's rigs appear to be nicely suited for their hulls.

Even with the sprit rig, the 16 proved she can surf down the backs of waves like a demon. Something about the run of the buttock lines. I can't wait.

[skaraborgcraft]

That looks great.....and you buggers have some stunning backdrops to your sailing grounds.....im suffering from mountain envy....

[James McMullen]

I use 100 lbs of lead ballast when sailing Rowan solo in docile cruising mode, which brings her up to 450 lbs. And Big Food might still weigh just as much.

The San Juan Islands are just a bunch of almost submerged mountain tops. On a clear day, you can literally see mountains on every side of you: the Olympics to the south, Vancouver Island to the west, The Pacific Coast range of mainland BC to the north and the Cascades along the entire eastern shore. The few times I've been sailing in places like Florida or the Great Lakes, it's been very disorienting to me. Nothing at all to look at or steer for in most directions. Weird!

[Gerarddm]

I was laughing just because James has been promoting the lug yawl rig for so long and so insistently that you were finally convinced to jump on that particular bandwagon. But I do like the name, however derived.

[James McMullen]

Oh, but it's nothing to do with me personally, Gerard. Why I am merely a conduit for preaching the One True Gospel for sail and oar adventurers. And as surely as the fiery lakes in Hell are churned to a froth of brimstone by jetski wakes, it is simply a fundamental Truth that the very chariots of the Seraphim themselves must be rigged as lug-yawls.

[johnw]

Oh, but it's nothing to do with me personally, Gerard. Why I am merely a conduit for preaching the One True Gospel for sail and oar adventurers. And as surely as the fiery lakes in Hell are churned to a froth of brimstone by jetski wakes, it is simply a fundamental Truth that the very chariots of the Seraphim themselves must be rigged as lug-yawls.

You're not an atheist. You just think God's name is Lug Yawl.

[JimD]

Ineffable.

[Chip-skiff]

You're not an atheist. You just think God's name is Lug Yawl.

He thinks it's James. Common knowledge, I reckon.

[James McMullen]

Well. . .I'm not entirely sure about that. . . .but as long as we're on the subject, why aren't you all tithing? All proceeds go directly into research into the building and use of wooden sail and oar boats--a very worthy endeavor as I'm sure you'll all agree.

[Yeadon]

I'd suggest giving to the Compass Project, Rocking the Boat, CWB, or the Wooden Boat Foundation in Port Townsend. I'm sure there are others equally as worthy, but those are my favorites.

[Eric Hvalsoe]

Good God, my boat weighs nothing.

I forget what ineffable means.

For the record, I was bitten by the oar and sail camp cruising, though not the lug yawl bug before meeting James.

[Yeadon]

The three of us pretty much found our own way into camp cruising, though James and Eric both kayak-camped locally for years. I've never kayaked on a long trip, though I'd like to try it sometime soon.

We're pretty lucky to know each other, too. Generally, we've agreed on the following:
- no engines allowed.
- each sail and oar boat must be self-contained, and need no assistance from the others.
- we'd happily give assistance to each other, if anyone would ever remember to turn their radios to channel 68.
- everyone needs to take a moment to study the tides, currents and weather, and our likely routes.
- feed yourself during the day, share what you have at night.
- don't make fun of the guy with the sprit rig (rule currently out of date).

Things that remain in dispute:
- How does Eric consistently get out of dinner duties?
- Does Big Food weigh more or less than 500 lbs?
- James McMullen: Is he correct or merely convincing?
- Will I ever stop yammering and shut up?

[BBSebens]

I've had the great pleasure to tag along with this lot. I'm stuck with a sprit rig, mostly because I've yet to have the time and money to build a lug yawl for my peapod.

If you've never tried it, you should. Its a blast.


Eric, you make a gorgeous boat.

[Eric Hvalsoe]

I promise to upload more pics this weekend.

Now that Diane often works until 10:00 PM I do much more in the kitchen, I just have to transfer that initiative to the beach!

Thanks Ben, look forward to seeing you on the water again.

[Rich Jones]

OK. I want one. Now.

[keyhavenpotterer]

Why has it got a transom?

[Yeadon]

Bandwagon was just born that way.

[Eric Hvalsoe]

Why has it got a transom?

Say hello to Emmett. Previous rig, but you get the idea. We need a picture of the sleeping nest - lower legs tucked under the main thwart, torso spread out over the aft floorboards, actually very ergonomic and comfortable for a guy my size!



Hey there's Lew and Lindy showing perfect trim in HV 13 #(6 or 7).



Mmm, maybe not the clearest picture - purpleheart crossarm and pushstick, rubber washer seperating the two. I've gone to a little clam cleat on top of the pushstick for tensioning the lanyard. Lanyard with stopper knot starts through underside of crossarm, then passes through pushstick to tensioning cleat.
I've tried an off the shelf universal joint that seemed to have a dead spot in a certain position. My set up works pretty smoothly. If I pump the rudder hard for a sustained period of time it will loosen up and require retensioning. And OK, maybe I did not have a real universal joint hanging around when I cooked this up.

Now I'm trying to implement a 'quick' changeover to a kick up using my existing rudder, except it is not exactly a quick changeover. But I keep tilling myself that it will be worth it.

[Eric Hvalsoe]

Allright

I finally took a perfectly functional rudder, mind you a little worse for wear after 12 years



Cut it right in half, with feeling



and made this



all the way up



I'll bludgeon anybody that starts whining about NACA, WACA or whatever foils.

Seriously, maybe I'll get one of them someday, but I want a kick up and I gotta go cruising next week.

I always felt the original rudder worked pretty well - it turned the boat, was not a kelp catcher, and for many beaches did not require shipping. But there are those beaches, and those times when I am rowing and don't want the added resistance of a rudder. I was determined to work with what I had - and come up with a blade that would totally clearthe water.

So I started a pattern drawing using the shape of existing rudder, guessed a radius, tried to think a dozen steps ahead, and made the fateful cut.

The cheeks are 1/4" aluminum - because that is what I had, aluminum is easy to work with, and because I had a notion to countersink and tap for flush through fastenings. I saw an amazing roostertail coming off a friends boat recently - I'm guessing in part that was from the rudder cheeks with proud fastenings. Anyhow, if not a foil, at least the cheeks are smooth. Formica for spacers.



At this point I'm happy with the control lines, but we'll see how things work on the water.
The lines are not bungee, in fact they are low stretch cord. I did not think a bungee would keep me firmly in the all up or all down position. When she is raised fully the whole deal seems to flow in some odd way with both the sheer and waterline. Just happenstance that the blade actually nests into the back of the rudder head. A weekend and morning's work. Rudder stays on the transom - less clutter in the boat.

[Gerarddm]

Will the lower part now float? Need weight of some type there?

[Yeadon]

Will the lower part now float? Need weight of some type there?

Looks like one line pulls the rudder up, the other line pulls it down (and keeps it down). No weight needed. If you look closely, you'll see one line down the back of the rudder, another down the front.

Incidentally, I never saw this phantom roostertail, but I'm sure it was very impressive. Maybe you could sketch it out on a napkin for me sometime? I'm having a hard time imagining what it looked like. Big Food was hauling ass that day, though.

[potomac]

Looks fantastic. Am I correct that the black piece holds the line in place? It seems an incredibly tidy and efficient arrangement. I'll be curious to hear how it performs. Are you bringing another rudder just in case?

[Eric Hvalsoe]

The aluminum cheeks add wieght - but without a snug control line the blade would hang in a more vertical position, not in line with the transom rake. The small lower tongue of the rudder stock provides a forward stop for the blade.

Your lanyard may have been contributing to the roostertail Tim - believe me it was impressive! I think my lanyard will be a little below the surface when loaded, let's see if I have a roostertail.

No way am I throwing 'an extra rudder' into the boat, not with a week's supplies, not ever. The worse that can happen is that it won't pivot as easily as I expect. Without bungee cord, it is sort of a two hand operation, but I can't see anyway around it. Just one Rontstan clam cleat for either line - the blade is set either up or down (or in between). The lift line passes through the rudderhead, the down line travels up the forward edge of the rudder. The start of both lines in the blade is hidden by the aluminum cheeks.

[Gerarddm]

Ah ( comprehension slowly dawns ), I see the other line now.

[Yeadon]

Your lanyard may have been contributing to the roostertail Tim - believe me it was impressive! I think my lanyard will be a little below the surface when loaded, let's see if I have a roostertail.

I wonder if there was a stick or piece of flotsam hung up on the lanyard when you saw the roostertail? Wish I'd seen it. This was on a beam reach run from Shilshole to Suquamish, and there's lots of stuff floating around out there in the lanes. Every so often I have to reach back, pull up the bottom blade of the rudder, let the flotsam free, and then reset it. I do this underway and it's sort of fun.

Ahhh, our First World problems ...

Ah ( comprehension slowly dawns ), I see the other line now.

When it comes time to build your kick-up rudder, swing by the house and take a look at Big Food. I also have some Oughtred drawings that describe a similar kick-up rudder.

Looks fantastic. Am I correct that the black piece holds the line in place? It seems an incredibly tidy and efficient arrangement. I'll be curious to hear how it performs. Are you bringing another rudder just in case?

Eric really never screws anything up, he sits and thinks wayyyy too long for that to happen. I bet this thing works right out of the gate. Me? I just chop away with knowing that I'm in Seattle and can get the replacement lumber I need.

[Eric Hvalsoe]

Guess it could have been flotsam.

Pretty much two ways to go on this kick up business - Oughtread style where the rudder stock consists of two big cheeks and filler block housing the blade pivot and control lines, or my, and Tim's, style with smaller cheeks attached to the blade and pivoting through the rudder stock. I worked with what I already had. In some ways the Oughtread style would seem to be tidier, although the upper works bulkier. Not sure which is more work to make. My blade has very high clearance.

[Eric Hvalsoe]

Oh dear God I'm back. Is all lost? Barkley Sound is such a distraction. The rudder worked dandeeee. I still love Jame's video from the San Jauns post #60.

[Eric Hvalsoe]

When I think back on the chronology of various changes made since owning my own 16, Bandwagon, the next would be modification of the skeg. Maybe three seasons ago. Originally the skeg was a dimensional 1 1/2" thick pointy slab of hardwood. My only real concern was how much lateral area - a balance between tracking and turning.

Eventually I realized the original configuration did not lend itself to beaching, or rather to pushing back down the beach.

I changed my boat to a 'box skeg' configuration. This required about a 5" by 8" slab of Port Orford Cedar. The profile of the skeg now fairs smoothly with the run of the keel.
And the (sided) width of the skeg follows the taper of the plank keel - so the skeg goes from a wide feather edge where it meets the keel just aft of the ceterboard trunk to 1 1/2" at the transom, and about 7" deep. With a good raduis on the corner.

The design question then became, how much overall rocker do I want for the bottom?
About 1 1/2".

[Gerarddm]

Eric, how thick is your rudder, and did you thin the trailing edge, at all?

[Eric Hvalsoe]

Eric, how thick is your rudder, and did you thin the trailing edge, at all?

3/4" not tapered. It really is not much of a foil shape to begin with. I think it works fine.
Maybe there is a better argument for taper on the centerboard, but I don't know that I will bother. I am thinking about moving the pivot location of the centerboard and adding some sort of spacers. It knocks around a bit in the case when all the way down.

[Yeadon]

I found the below passage here. It describes a nice middle ground for those who don't want to go with a full NACA foil. (It's also what I did on both my CB and rudder blade.)

I'm not hydrodynamics expert, but my limited experience... and all the reading I've done... suggests that a shaped foil can make a big difference.

One thing I've learned form Michael Storer is that it's not necessary, for most of our boats, to have a perfect NACA foil shape. He has a scheme for home building that leaves the middle 30% or so still flat (and thus easier to clamp to a table and machine). The front 30+% is rounded and tapered. The back 30+% is likewise tapered down to about a 1/8" flat. What you end with is an easily machined blank that gives you a NACA shape minus the most bulbouse width in the middle.

That shape gives the builder much less hassle to fabricate, and gives the skipper maybe 80-90% of the performance of a true NACA shape.

I've used this scheme on two of my personal boats, and am quite happy with it. I've raced the one (PDR), and credit the good results to both good foils, and a large, professionally designed, balanced lug rig.

Oh... and the scheme for these near-NACA foils can be had from Storer for about $20 by purchasing the plans for an OZ-Racer.

[Eric Hvalsoe]

I can't really disagree with David and Tim. And if you look through the years of my work, you'll find some tapered foils and some not. To a small degree I've studied aero and hydrodynamics. I pretty much know what an airplane wing looks like. Maybe it depends on the boat and/or my mood at the time. If I care, I'll taper the trailing edge. I also like John W's response during a conversation "I just learn sail my boat better", or words to that effect.

Right now I use a lanyard through the trailing edge of the centerboard, which seems slightly awkward with a sharply tapered blade.

[keyhavenpotterer]

HV-16 built and launched at the BBA Lyme Regis, UK this summer. Didn't get to the launchings on this occasion, but they have some build and launch shots:-

http://www.boatbuildingacademy.com/s...al.clinker.htm

Ed

[Eric Hvalsoe]

I wanted to mention this project, Thank you so much Ed!

For starters, I was able to confirm from Rob that the numbers are good, there are no problems with the plans package. Rob bought plans when the lug yawl rig was a preliminary drawing, he stuck with the sprit rig.

In matters of execution and detail there are some differences with the way I build the boat.
Which makes it all the more fun to look at. Rob built her rightside up. This seems typical on that side of the pond. Rob riveted the frames and garboard, which is great, although I prefer clench and ring nails. Arguably riveting lends itself more to rightside up construction and clench nailing to the inverse. I get a little more hollow throught the bottom of the transom. Really this is aesthetic, and does not affect the overall lines. I may treat my plank landings a little differently at the transom.

What is most interesting is Rob's backbone. For one thing he took my advice on the box keel as described in post 90. I indicated how much rocker I put in my boat, but also allow some discretion on the part of the indivudual builder. Now if you look closely at the base of the stem in Rob's photos, you'll see a slightly rounded corner, or forefoot. I assume that Rob retained the basic stem pattern and backbone assembly, but added depth to the keel. Which gave him enough room to round the corner below the rabbet at the stem. I'd love to see Skylark in person. I don't know how much depth of keel was added, or exactly how much rocker was achieved. Straight keel profiles are not uncommon on British boats.

I lot of things about how the 13/16 were designed and are (usually) built were aimed at making construction less, rather than more difficult. Rob's rounded forefoot is an interesting riff.

I also notice that Rob opted for less than full wraparound stern sheets (aka seats - does anybody know why they are called sheets?). This will give him a nice place to curl up against the hull in a good fore and aft position sailing the boat.

Very nice job Rob, beautiful.

[Rich Jones]

I just received my copy of the plans for Eric's HV13. I'll be referring to this thread while building. Lots of good pointers. Mine will be in gluedlap ply, a method I've enjoyed using on my last four builds. After I post this, I'm going into the shop, slap a coat of white paint on a piece of plywood and start lofting. Many don't enjoy lofting, but I do. All the head-scratching helps me really understand the boat better. I'm hoping for a spring launching.
The big question is this: Sprit rig or lug rig? Well, I've got some time to ponder that one.

[Eric Hvalsoe]

I think the lug rig is worth a sketch on the 13. One so rigged lives in eastern washington (bare hull finished by boatbuilding student). I also suspect the lug is not quite as handy without a mizzen.

[davebrown]

I have always thought the little HV13 is a masterpiece. It loses nothing in the translation to the 16, which sometimes happens when a perfect boat is stretched. My initial thought about the new rig is it is a kind of Left Coast Reverse Eastern Shore Stickup. What would be an estimated hourly on a build? I wanted to build it once before, but concluded it was beyond my ability at the time.

[Eric Hvalsoe]

Thank you Dave, and I meant to give you a congrats on your recent (nearly as finished as a boat ever gets?) build. I'm not sure I can give you a firm idea of building time. With quite a few patterns it takes me 3 or 4 man weeks to plank and frame a 16. That is just the beginning of the project. I allocate several months in the shop for a traditional build. I can be rather exacting in my finish and detail. This is because (A) I am what I am and (B) that kind of attention to detail makes for durability and longevity, particularly with bright finished surfaces. I do however have a personal sense of 'gratuitious craftsmanship' and avoid going there. It should first be about function. Allright then, I enjoy looking at wood, in all itsdiscreet, time tested, time worn, marveliously engineered and forever various glory.
I would be interesting to get Rob's estimate of time in England, of course he did his plank and frame 16 in a boatbuilding school environment. I imagine you've got some experience now Dave to extrapolate from.

Mmm . . . "left coast reverse eastern shore stick up" . . .

I intend to get to the rig conversion process. I have a couple more stories to tell as background information.