Growing Acceptance of Atheists in the US, Would you vote for an Atheist?

**TomF** · 08-18-2012, 08:28 PM

Nothing wrong with "Stand and Deliver" if you're the Highwayman in the old Irish song, pointing a pistol.

.

I've delivered what I'm gonna. More times than I can count. And it's not gonna get better - as I don't accept the equivalence you're saying must be there in descriptions of Buudhism and Christianity. Why? Because unlike you, I don't think they're equivalent! Buddhism is different than Christianity - you really don't have to believe in the supernatural to be a full member in the club. You do, to be a full member in the Christian club. Different clubs have different rules, eh?

Go to bed Sam. My lad's asleep now, and I'm gonna make tea for Herself. Don't blow a gasket over this thing , man - I've no intention of doing so.

**Peerie Maa** · 08-19-2012, 05:02 AM

This gets better and better

Is Bhuddism a religion? Let us use Sam's methods.
Dictionary definition of Religion:

re·li·gion/riˈlijən/

Noun:
The belief in and worship of a superhuman controlling power, esp. a personal God or gods.
Details of belief as taught or discussed.

re·li·gion

[ri-lij-uhn] Show IPA
noun1.a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purposeof the universe, especially when considered as the creationof a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involvingdevotional and ritual observances, and often containing amoral code governing the conduct of human affairs.

2.a specific fundamental set of beliefs and practices generallyagreed upon by a number of persons or sects: the Christianreligion; the Buddhist religion.

3.the body of persons adhering to a particular set of beliefsand practices: a world council of religions.

4.the life or state of a monk, nun, etc.: to enter religion.

5.the practice of religious beliefs; ritual observance of faith.

noun

[mass noun]

the belief in and worship of a superhuman controlling power, especially a personal God or gods:ideas about the relationship between science and religion
[count noun] a particular system of faith and worship:the world’s great religions
[count noun] a pursuit or interest followed with great devotion:consumerism is the new religion

See the common theme? A belief in a superhuman entity. That is definitely not Buddhism.
So the definition that Sam must be using to insist that Buddhism and Christianity are both religions cannot be the one that requires belief in a supernatural entity for both Buddhism and Christianity to comply with the definition.
So it follows that Sam is using the "adherence to a set of practices" or "interest followed with great devotion" definition. From this it follows that the rituals obeyed by a sufferer from OCD is the practicing of a religion. For Sam attending Mass in his church's congregation there is an exact equivalence to Obsessive Compulsive Disorder. Well who'd have thought it?

**skuthorp** · 08-19-2012, 06:16 AM

Hmm, I think that the definition of faith in a god (higher power etc) has gotten rather mixed up with religiosity and sectional dogma here. Dogma is about maintaining the 'business' arm of the particular religion. Trading in the claimed franchise and disciplining adherents to follow the set rules and using veiled promises and threats of future delights or disaster to keep them in line.
Surely one's relationship with your god, and I do mean 'your god' is a personal one? It should not need any go between.

**Peerie Maa** · 08-19-2012, 06:31 AM

Originally Posted by skuthorp

Surely one's relationship with your god, and I do mean 'your god' is a personal one? It should not need any go between.

I personally would agree with that, however I have discussed this with those of Faith. The consistent view is that one has to practice ones religion, which requires a shared experience. The Society of Friends need no go between, but do gather together to worship. The practice varies from creed to creed.

**skuthorp** · 08-19-2012, 06:36 AM

".....which requires a shared experience."
Why? to reinforce your faith? 'If all these others believe too I must be on the right track?'. Either you believe or you don't, as it happens I don't and I do not need a 'shared experience' to reinforce that.

**TomF** · 08-19-2012, 07:12 AM

I think that personal experience and relationship with God is key, and frankly the genesis of the more formalized traditions. And that group experience can help, when it works well.

**skuthorp** · 08-19-2012, 07:22 AM

I bow to your experience TomF, I guess non believers do not need a congregation

Regards #921, I recall hearing one Archbishop of Canterbury say the 'half the serving CofE clergy did not believe in god, and incidentally by their behaviour seemingly neither do some clergy of other franchises.

**Sam F** · 08-19-2012, 10:04 AM

Originally Posted by TomF

Nothing wrong with "Stand and Deliver" if you're the Highwayman in the old Irish song, pointing a pistol.

.

Well not being from the US you wouldn't know of a movie, based on a true story, by that name (Stand and Deliver) - wherein "Jaime Escalante, a high school teacher who successfully inspired his dropout prone students to learn calculus."
Not a positive model I grant you...

Originally Posted by TomF

I've delivered what I'm gonna.

OK so you're not going to deliver anything. I understand.

Originally Posted by TomF

More times than I can count.

Yep, been there seen that.

Originally Posted by TomF

And it's not gonna get better

No surprise at all.

Originally Posted by TomF

- as I don't accept the equivalence you're saying must be there in descriptions of Buudhism and Christianity. Why?

I'll tell you why. It's your standard Tom. I used your own reasoning and your own evidence.
If you don't like it don't blame me. A reasonable person might just figure out that when using his own reasoning he gets to an unacceptable result, the right thing to do is not blame somebody else, but to reexamine his own premises.

Originally Posted by TomF

Because unlike you, I don't think they're equivalent! Buddhism is different than Christianity...

Now pay attention Tom. I don't just think, I know that they're not equivalent. I have never said otherwise and I can't imagine why you say that.

Originally Posted by TomF

- you really don't have to believe in the supernatural to be a full member in the club.

Who said anything about the supernatural? You said that if someone self-describes as a particular thing, (despite the witness of accepted authorities - dictionaries, encyclopedias, the Dalai Lama, etc.), then that thing is so. You claimed that Buddhism was not a religion on that basis.
I merely asked that you be consistent and accept that Christians self-describe Christianity as not a religion. Therefore Christianity is not a religion.
Nothing could be simpler.

On the other hand, you could reasonably re-examine your premises and admit that they have lead to to a wrong conclusion.

**Sam F** · 08-19-2012, 10:05 AM

Originally Posted by TomF

Different clubs have different rules, eh?

I'm not in a different club. I'm trying to join your club. All I ask is that you play by your own rules.
Is that unreasonable?

**Sam F** · 08-19-2012, 10:12 AM

Originally Posted by skuthorp

Hmm, I think that the definition of faith in a god (higher power etc) has gotten rather mixed up with religiosity and sectional dogma here. Dogma is about maintaining the 'business' arm of the particular religion.

That's definitely a non-standard definition! Here is Webster's authoritative definition:

Dogma:
1 a: something held as an established opinion; especially: a definite authoritative tenet.
b: a code of such tenets <pedagogical dogma>
c: a point of view or tenet p0ut forth as authoritative without adequate grounds
2 a: a doctrine or body of doctrines concerning faith or morals formally stated and authoritatively proclaimed by a church

I don't seen anything about "business" in those. Do you?

Originally Posted by skuthorp

Surely one's relationship with your god, and I do mean 'your god' is a personal one? It should not need any go between.

Amen, amen, I say to you, that surely is "something held as an established opinion" and it thus as dogmatic any anything one could wish for.

**Sam F** · 08-19-2012, 10:14 AM

Originally Posted by TomF

I think that personal experience and relationship with God is key,...

Tell it to the Christian Atheists. Let us know where that gets you.

**skuthorp** · 08-19-2012, 03:35 PM

Meanwhile in another place and another time, http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-19311098 which puts this nit picking little thread back in it's place.

WX · 08-19-2012, 04:28 PM

Originally Posted by Sam F

Tell it to the Christian Atheists. Let us know where that gets you.

Just wondering how a person can be both?

**G.Sherman** · 08-19-2012, 05:00 PM

Originally Posted by Sam F

A classic example of intolerance.
News flash! A Christian, or Buddhist or Muslim or Atheist is perfectly welcome under the US system to cast his/her vote for, and advocate for, policies based entirely on religious views.

Excellent! So perhaps you'll allow me to object to your own religious viewpoints shoved down my throat?

As for never being asked... who asked you?

Edited: Maybe this is more to your Secular taste:
"Government authorities from a district in the Central Highlands last week compelled ethnic villagers to remove Catholic pictures and items from their chapel and replaced them with images of Ho Chi Minh last weekend."
http://www.ucanews.com/2012/08/16/ho...-chapel-cross/

Taking it kind of personal aren't we? I haven't made any religious views, just personal observations on a book that can be interpreted to mean just about anything or ignored when your hackles are up about gays, abortion, and women's rights. This thread started out with a question about an atheist becoming President. It's not about your version of any particular religious view.... it's about a President who subscribes to a world view without a "godhead".

**Tom Montgomery** · 08-19-2012, 05:20 PM

SammyF refuses to admit that so-called "Christian Atheists" are oddballs who have an entirely different concept of what being a "Christian" is than virtually everyone else in the world.

Instead he wishes to use the existence of such kooks to bash TomF.

SammyF's use of Wikipedia as an authority is hilarious. Those of us with long experience with Sammy know that he accepts Wikipedia as authoritative when it suits him and scoffs at Wikipedia as an authority when it does not.
z

**Tom Montgomery** · 08-19-2012, 05:30 PM

As for someone who claims to be a Christian but not to be religious... we all understand what that statement means. It means that the person believes in God and Jesus Christ as the son of God, but is affiliated with no Christian denomination and subscribes to no particular denominational dogma.

Only a sophist like SammyF would twist the plain meaning of such a statement in the interest of extending debate.

**Peerie Maa** · 08-19-2012, 05:52 PM

Originally Posted by Tom Montgomery

As for someone who claims to be a Christian but not to be religious... we all understand what that statement means. It means that the person believes in God and Jesus Christ as the son of God, but is affiliated with no Christian denomination and subscribes to no particular denominational dogma.

Only a sophist like SammyF would twist the plain meaning of such a statement in the interest of extending debate.

Tom, Sam has found a Wiki about a philosophical movement that agrees with Christs teaching but not in any god, or believes that God has ceased to exist. Sam provided a link back in #902 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_atheism

**Durnik** · 08-19-2012, 08:29 PM

Bing! 19 pages of Sam's trip from sophistry thru out-right fabrications - you know, the usual - God Bless it (;-))!

I'm hitting the road tomorrow - Finally getting out of this swamp! Y'all play nice while I'm gone. ;-)

enjoy
bobby

**G.Sherman** · 08-19-2012, 08:31 PM

Wikipedia is "the" authority we cite for this stuff? In what Universe has Wikipedia become "the" source of all knowledge? If SamF is citing this, why are we having any discussion at all? The internet can be a wonderful thing, but it is just as racked with imperfections as anything else. Looking for facts- avoid 60% of what you see on the net. You can't fix stupid. Extended debate? More like diatribe. SamF, get a hobby..... maybe golf.

**skuthorp** · 08-20-2012, 12:40 AM

Does god play golf? No it's Rugby Union he's a fan of isn't it? http://gunfightersview.blogspot.com....in-heaven.html

What position do you think he played, prop? No that's for short necked blokes with big legs and little brains. Half? not likely, too easy to get scrunched. Winger? No all they have to do is run. I reckon inside centre (5/8), creative round the scrum and enough in the midfield to get a lot of touches on the ball.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rugby_union_positions

**Peerie Maa** · 08-20-2012, 04:36 AM

So Sam. Do you agree that Obsessive Compulsive Disorder is a religion?
It complies with your dictionary definition so it must be so.
Yesno?

**skuthorp** · 08-20-2012, 04:40 AM

Yesno? Come on, it's Sam your talking about, I reckon he can get a 5 point reply out of your post.

**Peerie Maa** · 08-20-2012, 04:48 AM

Originally Posted by skuthorp

Yesno? Come on, it's Sam your talking about, I reckon he can get a 5 point reply out of your post.

I doubt that he will answer. Sam usually ignores me. However it is instructional to employ Sam's own techniques and cources to see where they take us.

**skuthorp** · 08-20-2012, 04:56 AM

Well, whatever his motives he has afforded me much amusing reading over several years.

**Sam F** · 08-20-2012, 07:14 AM