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Thread: Andrew Sullivan on Mormonism

  1. #1
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    Default Andrew Sullivan on Mormonism

    From The Daily Beast:

    A reader quotes me:
    "I have a few non-doctrinal yardsticks to think about the question of how legitimate a religion is. 1. Does it have secret, sacred places that are sealed off from outsiders? 2. Is there some kind of esoteric teaching involved known only to those high up in the faith? 3. Is it easy to leave the church, i.e. is apostasy without serious consequences? 4. Does it enforce tithing effectively?"

    You came as close as you ever have to questioning Mormonism’s legitimacy as a religion that's truly parallel to "established" ones. It's for the reasons you listed, which were clearly meant to be descriptive of Mormonism, and NOT because of magic plates in Missouri, that I believe we need to seriously raise this question: are we about to elect a man who just belongs to a fringe religion, or are we placing in power a man who closely follows the tenets of a secret society disguised as a legitimate religion?

    John F. Kennedy famously stated that secret societies were anathema to America’s principles: "The very word 'secrecy' is repugnant in a free and open society; and we are as a people inherently and historically opposed to secret societies, to secret oaths and to secret proceedings." I want a president who’s an open book, not one who revels in secrecy and exclusivity. You are the person to ask this question, as you have other unpopular ones, and it’s time to do so explicitly.
    I do think the question of the cultish qualities of Mormonism are worth exploring. Why cannot non-Mormons come and go in Mormon Temples as they can in Cathedrals and mosques and synagogues? Why is it so hard for some to leave the LDS Church without social ostracism and peer pressure? How much money would taxpayers be automatically giving the LDS church by paying the president his salary? How much control does the LDS hierarchy have over its members? Why is missionary work compulsory? Why were Ann Romney's non-Mormon parents barred from attending her own Temple sealing?

    Why did Romney go to Salt Lake City to consult with the big machers in the church before running as a pro-choice candidate in Massachusetts? What transpired at that meeting? (Can you imagine John Kerry going to the Vatican to inform the Pope that he was going to run as a pro-choice candidate - and getting the Pope's silence as a result?) The only explanation that makes sense to me is that they believed that getting a Mormon into the governor's office was more important than adhering to church teaching, which, given the church's absolute stricture against abortion, is revealing about a church's understanding of truth's relationship to power. The LDS church is not the only religion that has these tendencies. But in other faiths, the institutions that most resemble it - like, say, Opus Dei or the Legion of Christ - are more cults within churches than churches themselves.
    The doctrines of Mormonism strike me as no more strange than those of most other mainstream religions, but more obviously odd simply because they are so recent. I cannot criticize the absurd and unsubstantiated notion that there were lots of strange tribes occupying America two thousand years ago when Jesus dropped by to say hi, when my own church insists as a matter of infallible teaching that the mother of Jesus was sucked up into the sky rather than dying a natural death. You cannot note that Joseph Smith was a convicted con man whose scam is retroactively obvious without noting the unsavory aspects of Muhammed's biography or the rank anti-Semitism of, say, Martin Luther.

    But one can examine the structure of the religion and its practices, to see if they are easily compatible with open government and transparency, or if they rely on intimidation, isolation and cultic practices. Perhaps this can be ignored with lesser offices. But a president is different. If he has been part of a church hierarchy, has had secret meetings with them, has a social life revolving almost entirely around fellow Mormons, and practices his faith in places that no one can see or talk about ... then we have some questions. If a candidate's best friends say that Mormonism is at the very core of who Romney is, then his refusal to answer any questions about it or discuss it at all is already disturbing.
    Gerard>
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  2. #2
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    Default Re: Andrew Sullivan on Mormonism

    The Attacks on Mormonism and linking it to Romney has started.

    Pathetic.

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    Default Re: Andrew Sullivan on Mormonism

    It's easy to stir folks with a religious phobia, especially the mormon fear. The non mormon religious take their personal belief for granted and fail to question there own religion in the same fair way. Religion even without an identifier is still a belief in a supernatural, and prayer itself is a private meeting with your personal creation, so.............. Andrew Sullivan, have you met with your personal savior/ imaginary friend lately?
    Bud





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    Default Re: Andrew Sullivan on Mormonism

    Quote Originally Posted by gerarddm View Post
    [andrew sullivan]
    "i have a few non-doctrinal yardsticks to think about the question of how legitimate a religion is. 1. Does it have secret, sacred places that are sealed off from outsiders? 2. Is there some kind of esoteric teaching involved known only to those high up in the faith? 3. Is it easy to leave the church, i.e. Is apostasy without serious consequences? 4. Does it enforce tithing effectively?"
    An interesting set of yardsticks. Clearly, Christianity during the Middle Ages was a very illegitimate religion.

    Kaa

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    Default Re: Andrew Sullivan on Mormonism

    I've known many Mormons and have thought them all to be very nice, decent people. I still won't be voting for Romney, but I have no problem with his religion.

    I don't think he should be attacked for it.

    On the other hand, I've been watching Obama get attacked for four years for Reverend Wright and for being a Muslim... so maybe ya'll need to shut up about that.

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    Default Re: Andrew Sullivan on Mormonism

    I watched a TV show last night about the British in India. One small segment was about "Christian" missionaries going into Hindu and Muslim temples and accusing the assemblages of having 'superstitious beliefs'. I couldn't get over the hypocrisy. Attempts to explain through invention are ridiculous in any religion.
    Whereof one cannot speak,
    Thereof one must be silent. L. Wittgenstein

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    Default Re: Andrew Sullivan on Mormonism

    romney scares me all by himself

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    Default Re: Andrew Sullivan on Mormonism

    Quote Originally Posted by wardd View Post
    romney scares me all by himself
    That's how politicians like you -- scared.

    Kaa

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    Default Re: Andrew Sullivan on Mormonism

    Quote Originally Posted by ljb5
    I've known many Mormons and have thought them all to be very nice, decent people.
    I am from Ohio. In my experience Mormons have not always been "very nice, decent people."

    I don't think he should be attacked for it.
    Agreed. But I think Mormonism is a Christian cult and Romney should be willing to defend his belief and explain how it would inform his presidency.

    On the other hand, I've been watching Obama get attacked for four years for Reverend Wright and for being a Muslim... so maybe ya'll need to shut up about that.
    Yep. Obama is clearly a Christian.
    "it takes two to behavior"


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    Default Re: Andrew Sullivan on Mormonism

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaa View Post
    That's how politicians like you -- scared.

    Kaa
    well romney has succeeded , i'm voting for the other guy

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    Default Re: Andrew Sullivan on Mormonism

    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Montgomery View Post
    I am from Ohio. In my experience Mormons have not always been "very nice, decent people."


    Agreed. But I think Mormonism is a Christian cult and Romney should be willing to defend his belief and explian how hit would inform his presidency.


    Yep. Obama is clearly a Christian.
    dem christians don't count

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    Default Re: Andrew Sullivan on Mormonism

    Quote Originally Posted by wardd View Post
    well romney has succeeded , i'm voting for the other guy
    Ah, scared and confused -- a double success :-D

    Politicians like you to be scared in general so that they can pretend to save you from your fears, but they also like you to be scared of the other guy, for rather obvious reasons :-D

    Kaa

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    Default Re: Andrew Sullivan on Mormonism

    Quote Originally Posted by ljb5 View Post
    I still won't be voting for Romney, but I have no problem with his religion.

    I don't think he should be attacked for it.

    On the other hand, I've been watching Obama get attacked for four years for Reverend Wright and for being a Muslim... so maybe ya'll need to shut up about that.
    On the other hand? hmmm... four years huh, I haven't heard Rev. Wright 's name three times in four years. About 16% of Americans think the Prez. is muslim and you are concerned about that and blame the Ya'll ( I think it's Y'all, maybe you ain't southern enough for that word. You did get that education north of the Mason Dixon right?).

    About 82 percent of Americans believe in a supernatural being protector, 79 percent believe in miracles, 75 percent in heaven, 72 percent believed that jesus is god or the son of god. Belief in hell and the devil is 62 percent.Only 42 percent believe in Darwin's theory .

    Are you concerned about that? So.....on the other hand ...........
    Bud





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    Default Re: Andrew Sullivan on Mormonism

    I am as suspicious of a Mormon presidential candidate as I would of a fundamentalist Southern Baptist candidate longing for Armageddon.

    My apology to the faint-hearted.
    "it takes two to behavior"


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    Default Re: Andrew Sullivan on Mormonism

    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Montgomery View Post
    But I think Mormonism is a Christian cult...
    religion -- n. A large successful cult.

    cult -- n. A small unsuccessful religion.

    Kaa

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    Default Re: Andrew Sullivan on Mormonism

    So you think Mormonism is a large successful cult?

    Compared to what?
    "it takes two to behavior"


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    Default Re: Andrew Sullivan on Mormonism

    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Montgomery View Post
    So you think Mormonism is a large successful cult?

    Compared to what?
    I think Mormonism is a small unsuccessful religion.

    Compared to Christianity.

    Kaa

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    Default Re: Andrew Sullivan on Mormonism

    Me too.

    I worry about politicians whose allegiance is to a religion or ideology rather than to a pluralistic Democratic/Republic

    Such politicians tend to be uncompromising and addicted to political brinksmanship.
    "it takes two to behavior"


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    Default Re: Andrew Sullivan on Mormonism

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaa View Post
    religion -- n. A large successful cult.

    cult -- n. A small unsuccessful religion.

    Kaa
    Very succinct Kaa, and I totally agree.
    Unless a politician is elected on the platform of his religion his beliefs should have nothing to do with his performance as a representative of the electorate. If he cannot adhere to this principle he should not stand.
    Referring #20, most of the majors and virtually all of the minors are businesses taking advantage of the tax breaks.
    Last edited by skuthorp; 06-21-2012 at 04:48 PM.

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    Default Re: Andrew Sullivan on Mormonism

    I would love to have a business as successful as the mormon religion. In fact if I had a business I would prefer to hire mormons over any other religious person. That was actually done by the Fred Harvey Corporation in the 70's and was a very successful program. I am sure it is a common practice in Utah and surrounding area today.
    Bud





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    Default Re: Andrew Sullivan on Mormonism

    The Attacks on Mormonism and linking it to Romney has started.

    Pathetic.
    I forget, did you say that during the Republican primaries?
    Gerard>
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    Default Re: Andrew Sullivan on Mormonism

    You DO realize that if elected, Romny will have all Mormon SS guards so that he (they) can go to church (where the media cannot follow)?
    The doctrine of nonresistance against arbitrary power, and oppression, is absurd, slavish, and destructive of the good and happiness of mankind.
    Personal failures are too important to be trusted to others.

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    Default Re: Andrew Sullivan on Mormonism

    Quote Originally Posted by pefjr
    I would love to have a business as successful as the mormon religion. In fact if I had a business I would prefer to hire mormons over any other religious person. That was actually done by the Fred Harvey Corporation in the 70's and was a very successful program. I am sure it is a common practice in Utah and surrounding area today.
    So you are saying they tend to be very compliant employees?

    Cool.

    So what?
    "it takes two to behavior"


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    Default Re: Andrew Sullivan on Mormonism

    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Montgomery View Post
    So you are saying they tend to be very compliant employees?

    Cool.

    So what?
    No, I am saying they are valuable assets.
    Last edited by pefjr; 06-21-2012 at 07:57 PM. Reason: changed better for valuable
    Bud





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    Default Re: Andrew Sullivan on Mormonism

    "I believe God wants me to be president."
    -- George W. Bush
    "it takes two to behavior"


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    Default Re: Andrew Sullivan on Mormonism

    I think it is entirely appropriate to ask any presidential candidate how his religious belief (or atheism) will inform his presidency if he is elected.
    "it takes two to behavior"


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    Default Re: Andrew Sullivan on Mormonism

    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Montgomery View Post
    I think it is entirely appropriate to ask any presidential candidate how his religious belief (or atheism) will inform his presidency if he is elected.
    Yeah, like they need even more opportunities to BS the electorate....

    regards,
    Waddie

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    Default Re: Andrew Sullivan on Mormonism

    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Montgomery View Post
    I think it is entirely appropriate to ask any presidential candidate how his religious belief (or atheism) will inform his presidency if he is elected.
    Did you see the Glen Beck show with Romney, Beck, Al Sharpton, and Christopher Hitchens about 2 yrs ago. Lucky they were not all in the same local, it a video conference.
    Bud





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    Default Re: Andrew Sullivan on Mormonism

    JFK was asked the question. Historians generally agree that his answer helped him.

    Of course, religious ideologues and historical revisionists such as Sam F today criticize his response.
    "it takes two to behavior"


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    Default Re: Andrew Sullivan on Mormonism

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaa View Post
    Ah, scared and confused -- a double success :-D

    Politicians like you to be scared in general so that they can pretend to save you from your fears, but they also like you to be scared of the other guy, for rather obvious reasons :-D

    Kaa
    both sides have succeeded then, i'm scared of romney

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    Default Re: Andrew Sullivan on Mormonism

    Quote Originally Posted by pefjr View Post
    On the other hand? hmmm... four years huh, I haven't heard Rev. Wright 's name three times in four years. About 16% of Americans think the Prez. is muslim and you are concerned about that and blame the Ya'll ( I think it's Y'all, maybe you ain't southern enough for that word. You did get that education north of the Mason Dixon right?).

    About 82 percent of Americans believe in a supernatural being protector, 79 percent believe in miracles, 75 percent in heaven, 72 percent believed that jesus is god or the son of god. Belief in hell and the devil is 62 percent.Only 42 percent believe in Darwin's theory .

    Are you concerned about that? So.....on the other hand ...........
    You really need to find the entire sermon of Wright's that those few words were taken from.

    Kind of like about 4:00 into this video
    http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/tu...gration-reform
    Congress begins every day with a prayer. Enough said.

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    Default Re: Andrew Sullivan on Mormonism

    what wright said was no worse than calling katrina gods punishment for abortion, homosexuality,,,,, ( add you fav evil here )

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    Default Re: Andrew Sullivan on Mormonism

    Lets review Libs talking points on Romney.

    Romney is Rich.

    Ann Romney has a horse.

    Romney does not feel your pain.

    Romney had a dog and the dog rode on top of a station wagon.

    Ann Romney has a fancy horse riding outfit and you don't.

    Romney is a Mormon and you are not.

    Romney is out of touch.

    Romney is Richie rich and you are not..

    Heres a Photoshop pic of the whole family with shirts and together it spells money cause they have money and you don't.

    Romney ran a business and made money.

    Ann has a fancy horse..

    Romney has a big house and you do not.

    Ann has funny horse riding pants.

    His Dad or somebody was from Mexico We are not birthers but this is something you should know about..

    Ann's horse costs more then your mommy van .

    That poor dog got washed off with a garden hose..

    Romney closed business that failed Not something a liberal would do Why we would take YOUR money to keep it afloat just cause we want YOU to have a job.

    Ann has a funny horse riding hat..

    Politico Reporter: Romney Only Comfortable Around ‘White Folks

    He hates people so much he started Health care
    Last edited by bobbys; 06-21-2012 at 07:34 PM.

  34. #34
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    Default Re: Andrew Sullivan on Mormonism

    romney has different values than most of the people

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    Default Re: Andrew Sullivan on Mormonism

    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Montgomery View Post
    I think it is entirely appropriate to ask any presidential candidate how his religious belief (or atheism) will inform his presidency if he is elected.
    I don't know how someone can not have their values, their beliefs, inform their work/decisions, particularly as POTUS.

    Don't the people want a leader of integrity? How can you have integrity but not let your values inform your work?

    Simple: can't.
    "And those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music." Nietzsche

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    Default Re: Andrew Sullivan on Mormonism

    I'm waiting for the musical...
    Xanthorrea

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    Default Re: Andrew Sullivan on Mormonism

    Quote Originally Posted by John Smith View Post
    You really need to find the entire sermon of Wright's that those few words were taken from.

    Kind of like about 4:00 into this video
    http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/tu...gration-reform
    Why? Wright is not the point.
    Bud





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    Default Re: Andrew Sullivan on Mormonism

    No, the only talking point needed about Romney is that he has no compass, he will say anything to anybody at any time to get his "50.1%", and the devil take the hindmost.

    O wait, one more: in service of point #1, he is a habitual liar.

    That's all you need to know.
    Last edited by Gerarddm; 06-22-2012 at 12:20 AM. Reason: Typo
    Gerard>
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    Default Re: Andrew Sullivan on Mormonism

    Quote Originally Posted by Gerarddm View Post
    No, the only talking point needed about Romney is that he has no compass, he will say anything to anybody at any time to get his "50.1%", and the devil take the hindmost.

    O wait, one more: in service of point #1, he is an habitual liar.

    That's all you need to know.
    .

    If he is a habitual liar as you claim he must be a sociopath.

    If he is a Sociopath only a licensed Psychiatrist could diagnose him.

    If a Psychiatrist knew his condition he would keep it confidential.

    How could you diagnose MR and how could you release his condition?..

    Your the one with no moral compass and i have just proven you will say anything if it suits you no matter how inane.

    This makes you the liar.

    Thats all anyone needs to know..

    How does this feel?

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    Default Re: Andrew Sullivan on Mormonism

    Quote Originally Posted by bobbys View Post
    How does this feel?
    Flimsy, kinda pathetic.

    Look: politics ain't beanbag.

    Mitt Romney wants to be president; we have a right to evaluate him. You don't have to be a licensed psychiatrist to evaluate him.

    Romney was against the automaker's bailout before he was for it. He was for the individual mandate before he was against it. He was against the Dream Act before he was for it. He hasn't got a plan. He hasn't got a principle. He hasn't got anything but saying the opposite of anything Obama says. How can he possibly govern?

    Sorry if that busts your sacred cow, but he is not immune from scrutiny.
    Last edited by ljb5; 06-22-2012 at 12:17 AM.

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    Default Re: Andrew Sullivan on Mormonism

    Bobbys, since your critique has no merit I can and will safely, blithely, and confidently ignore it.
    Gerard>
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    Default Re: Andrew Sullivan on Mormonism

    Research says your average board room is rife with sociopaths, and the same with MD's. No reason to think that congress or presidential candidates (or their puppet masters) are any different.

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    Default Re: Andrew Sullivan on Mormonism

    ^SOP.
    Xanthorrea

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    Default Re: Andrew Sullivan on Mormonism

    Quote Originally Posted by ljb5 View Post

    Mitt Romney wants to be president; we have a right to evaluate him. You don't have to be a licensed psychiatrist to evaluate him.
    To fairly evaluate Romney one can not be strongly partisan like you are. I have not seen any criticism of the Prez., even constructive criticism coming from you. There is not a dime's difference in the two MIC candidates but I only see criticism of one. There is definitely room for some fair evaluation of Obama. Let's see it.
    Bud





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