Holder Retracts Claim Bushco knew about Fast and Furious

[RodSBT]

http://washingtonexaminer.com/holder...rticle/2500157

Re: Second retraction of Fast and Furious Assertions

Da: Wednesday, June 20, 2012
The Justice Department has retracted a second statement made to the Senate Judiciary Committee. During a hearing last week, Attorney General Eric Holder claimed that his predecessor, then-Attorney General Michael Mukasey, had been briefed about gunwalking in Operation Wide Receiver. Now, the Department is retracting that statement and claiming Holder "inadvertently" made that claim to the Committee. The Department's letter failed to apologize to former Attorney General Mukasey for the false accusation. This is the second major retraction the Justice Department has made in the last seven months. In December 2011, the Department retracted its claim that the ATF had not allowed illegally purchased guns to be trafficked to Mexico.

Looks like Holder is toast.

[David W Pratt]

"Inadvertently"?
Don't you do a little preparation when you testify before a Senate committee?

[Ian McColgin]

This is the problem with an agency with no permanent director has rogue offices. It's natural to believe that an operation developed and authorized during the Bush administration would have come to the knowledge of Bush's AG. But it appears that that BFAT office kept two AGs from two different administrations in the dark. Perhaps the committee should widen it's scope and ask Mukasey what he knew and when he knew it.

[RodSBT]

You're flailing in the wind Ian.

[bobbys]

This is the problem with an agency with no permanent director has rogue offices. It's natural to believe that an operation developed and authorized during the Bush administration would have come to the knowledge of Bush's AG. But it appears that that BFAT office kept two AGs from two different administrations in the dark. Perhaps the committee should widen it's scope and ask Mukasey what he knew and when he knew it.

.

The ole standby.

Bush did it......

[Cuyahoga Chuck]

The nice thing about the Washington Examiner is it's handed out free all around the capital and it's publisher makes no bones about it's purpose. To push a definite right-wing agenda.
Even if this particular story is the god's truth it's tainted by the newspaper it's published in.
If you want to make your arguments felt you need to avoid sources that openly admit to a right-wing bias.

[Ian McColgin]

I don't so much say blame the previous guy as I just know something about how hard it can be to master a sprawling bureaucracy. Two stories:

A friend rose in the Agriculture Dept till under LBJ he was running Food for Cities, the over-lord for the school lunch programs. Huge. After Nixon was elected they knew he'd gut the program, so LBJ personally authorized my friend to hide his budget, move the office to NYC, and carry on as long as he could. Took almost 3 years for the Nixonians to find and fire him.

When Michael Dukakis began his second administration, a bunch of us advocates from around the state made a weekly meeting with the Welfare Commissioner to feed him direct client-centered information about what the Department was actually doing. Some years later after one of our head bashing sessions, the Commissioner looked as us pleadingly noting: "The put me in the driver's seat. My hands are getting near the wheel but my feet still are not near the pedels."

These are both small and simple cases compared to what it takes to even find out what a notoriously beserk agency with no Director is even doing, much less bringing it under control. One of the reasons Obama is so solicitously apolitical about these agencies is that he knows that if he totally enrages the lower political appointees he's not about to replace wholesale or enrages the "non-political" folk they appointed, they can ever so easily not just thwart what he's trying to do, but they can make him look really really bad. As in the armed forces, where a newly arrived unit commander does not start with his or her own people at all levels, you have to work with the people you've inherited at least for quite a while.

I can see how Obama might wish he could authorize drone strikes on some major federal buildings around the country . . .

[bobbys]

[RonW]

Congress needs to remove holder -period. Not only for this crime, but also the protection of the banksters..

So here is a hard core tid bit, Hillary has been heavily involved in this since the bush administration, and that is a real problem.
Also as we type, hillary and Barry are trying a back door attack on personal guns through the United Nations....and that is the way the cookie crumbles......

[ccmanuals]

It's an established fact that the program was started under the Bush administration. But, not one single witness that was there during it's creation has been called to testify. It's politics pure and simple and Issa is not very good at it.

[BrianY]

.
Also as we type, hillary and Barry are trying a back door attack on personal guns through the United Nations....and that is the way the cookie crumbles......

Please expand on this. What exactly are they doing? Where can I find out more about it?

[ljb5]

Which is worse: Mukasey was in charge during Wide Receiver and he knew about it....

...or he was in office during Wide Receiver and he didn't know about it?

[Kaa]

It's an established fact that the program was started under the Bush administration. But, not one single witness that was there during it's creation has been called to testify. It's politics pure and simple and Issa is not very good at it.

Wide Receiver was started under Bush. Fast & Furious was started under Obama.

Kaa

[ccmanuals]

same program but different names. Kinda like wet and moist.

[Kaa]

same program but different names. Kinda like wet and moist.

I haven't really paid much attention to it, but my impression is that Wide Receiver was a smaller program run by the Phoenix BATF office, and Fast & Furious was a much bigger program conceived and authorized in Washington by the Justice Dept.

Kaa

[RonW]

Fast & Furious was started under Obama.

Fast and furious was started under Bush........and both administrations are guilty of the crime........

-BrianY -

Please expand on this. What exactly are they doing? Where can I find out more about it?

http://www.infowars.com/u-s-agrees-t...or-un-gun-ban/

http://www.infowars.com/obama-seeks-...ontrol-treaty/

http://www.infowars.com/obama-takes-...-all-firearms/

http://www.infowars.com/while-were-a...l-arms-treaty/

http://planet.infowars.com/politics/...-united-states

[RonW]

This article might be of interest to some......

http://www.infowars.com/obama-once-a...ive-privilege/

Before the scandal erupted, the Obama administration repeatedly invoked rhetoric about the flow of guns being smuggled from the U.S. into Mexico as a talking point with which to chill gun rights of American citizens, repeating the demonstrably false myth that 90% of weapons confiscated by Mexican authorities originate in the U.S.
During a March 30 2011 meeting between Jim and Sarah Brady and White House Press Secretary Jay Carney, at which Obama “dropped in,” the president reportedly told Brady, “I just want you to know that we are working on it (gun control)….We have to go through a few processes, but under the radar.” The quote appeared in an April 11 Washington Post story about Obama’s gun control czar Steve Croley.

[David W Pratt]

Ian-
Your anecdote about the social services guy contradicts your initial assertion, that the head of an agency is key. In Mass your agency head seemed impotent. If so, the quality of the agency depends on the quality of mid-level lifers, not politically appointed heads, good, bad, or indifferent, who come and go with the election cycle.

[Ian McColgin]

David, things are not just one way and really they are three fairly typical examples of complexity ranging from the bureaucracy attempting to thwart the incoming administration's goals to the problems with even the most well-intentioned director getting control over an agency to the BATF problem of rogue offices/programs and no responsible leadership. No contradiction, but rather variations on the theme that complex systems are hard to control. Imagine, if you will, a new admiral taking over an aircraft carrier. Do you suppose he has any way to find the various stills hidden about the machine spaces, the myriad smuggling routes for all sorts of contraband, or the looting of the supply chain by corrupt logistics personnel? FFC. Now imagine a command situation where the carrier's admiral is never appointed and you just have "acting."

[ccmanuals]

This article might be of interest to some......

http://www.infowars.com/obama-once-a...ive-privilege/

One can only hope they are working on some sensible gun control laws.

[wardd]

how many guns have been confiscated from lawful owners?

[BrianY]

RonW -

It seems to me that the proposed UN treaty would only affect INTERNATIONAL gun trade and that it specifically allows signatory states to determine their own interal gun laws. How then is this an "attack on personal guns" or gun ownership in the US ? I can see how some in the industry would view it as an "attack" on their abilty to sell guns to whomever and wherever they want to OUTSIDE of the US, but from what I've read, this has absoultely nothing whatsoever to do with the ability of Americans to purchase and own guns in this country.

[wardd]

the 2nd amendment covers the world

[David W Pratt]

wardd-
I should

[RonW]

Well I won't argue that Obama and holder owns about 95% of this dirty deal and eric holder should be removed if not sent to prison.
But what they did was take a entrapment program ( that never should have existed ) from the bush administration and put a twist on it and threw it into high gear,
with one purpose in mind, and that was to re-instate the assault weapons ban that is a anti- gun movement ..

My point is that these little entrapment games no matter if they are guns, drugs or martha stewart are not a function of a properly managed constitutional government.

Here is a interesting clip of a interview with Issa from almost a year ago..

Rep. Darrell Issa acknowledged Sunday that operations “similar” to the controversial “Fast and Furious” gunrunning probe were conducted under the Bush administration.
But the House Republican spearheading an investigation into the operation under Attorney General Eric Holder’s Justice Department claimed the past operations were different in that they were “coordinated with Mexico.”
Issa’s comments follow fresh reports about gunrunning probes spanning the Bush and Obama administrations.

http://www.infowars.com/issa-acknowl...us-under-bush/

Oh and by the way, Hillary was heavily involved with this pushing ATF ......now let's see if that comes out.......

[Phillip Allen]

didn't a president get run off for trying to cover for his 'soldiers' once? Something to do with a gate and his bones are still trotted out as an example of criminal behavior by a president?

I guess the shoe is on another party now and that makes it different even for the lynch mob that wanted to hang the first president… we seem to have the same players out in the mob but without the torches and pitchforks this time… what a hoot!!!

[John Smith]

.

The ole standby.

Bush did it......

I would love an honest investigation of this program. It did start under Bush. From the memos I've seen, Holder relied on something he was told, then that was corrected. I'm a little puzzled by Obama's Executive Privilege in some respects.

I think I'd have taken the position that I'm invoking Executive Privilege at least until the committee shows it is actually investigating the Fast and furious program by call witnesses from the previous administration.

Meanwhile, people will believe what they want the facts to show:

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2012...ding-congress/

[ljb5]

didn't a president get run off for trying to cover for his 'soldiers' once? Something to do with a gate and his bones are still trotted out as an example of criminal behavior by a president?

Gosh, we don't have to go as far back as Nixon to find examples of a President exerting executive privilege to cover up for his people. Bush did it six times.

Twice, to cover up for Harriet Miers and Alberto Gonzales firing federal prosecutors for ideological reasons. (Later, the DOJ determined this was a crime, but no one was prosecuted because Monica Goodling was granted immunity.) Miers and Bolten were cited with contempt of Congress. (Can you believe he nominated her to be on the Supreme Court?!)

A week later, executive privilege was again used to withhold documents related to the death of Pat Tillman, the Army Ranger who was killed by friendly fire in Afghanistan.

Less then a month after that, Bush used executive privilege to shield Karl Rove from testifying before Congress about the prosecutors scandal.

It's also interesting to note that Bush used executive privilege to shield Janet Reno from an investigation.

I suspect you only care (or even know) about it this time because this case involves guns.

[John Smith]

Colbert gets it right

http://www.colbertnation.com/the-col...rious--scandal

[ccmanuals]

I would love an honest investigation of this program. It did start under Bush. From the memos I've seen, Holder relied on something he was told, then that was corrected. I'm a little puzzled by Obama's Executive Privilege in some respects.

I think I'd have taken the position that I'm invoking Executive Privilege at least until the committee shows it is actually investigating the Fast and furious program by call witnesses from the previous administration.

Meanwhile, people will believe what they want the facts to show:

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2012...ding-congress/

None of this is about Holder or the DOJ or the Fast and Furious program. It's all about finding some way to make Obama look bad before the election. Issa wants internal communications between the WH and DOJ in the hopes he can find something that has the appearance of "evil". Let's not forget what this is really about and has been about from the very beginning. Of all the things that Issa could supposedly investigate why is he hanging his hat on a piss ant plan that was poorly conceived, planned and executed to which no one disputes.

[Kaa]

Gosh, we don't have to go as far back as Nixon to find examples of a President exerting executive privilege to cover up for his people. Bush did it six times.

How convenient it is for you to forget Bill Clinton. Fourteen times claiming executive privilege. Got to be a record :-)

Kaa

[Phillip Allen]

How convenient it is for you to forget Bill Clinton. Fourteen times claiming executive privilege. Got to be a record :-)

Kaa

he is giving cherry-picking a bad name

[ljb5]

he is giving cherry-picking a bad name

You didn't mention Clinton or Bush... and you accuse me of cherry picking?

[ljb5]

How convenient it is for you to forget Bill Clinton. Fourteen times claiming executive privilege. Got to be a record :-)

Kaa

Yes, I think Gingrich and Ken Starr hold the record for the most ridiculous, partisan, politically motivated witch hunt in the history of American politics.

But Darrell Issa is fast on track to beat them.

Anyone every investigate Issa? How many times has that guy been arrested?

[Kaa]

Yes, I think Gingrich and Ken Starr hold the record for the most ridiculous, partisan, politically motivated witch hunt in the history of American politics

Call the whaaaaambulance! Poor Bill Clinton, the evil Republicans MADE HIM DO IT!! :-D :-D

Kaa

[ljb5]

Call the whaaaaambulance! Poor Bill Clinton, the evil Republicans MADE HIM DO IT!! :-D :-D

You didn't say that when Phillip was boo-hooing about Nixon.

[ccmanuals]

Yes, I think Gingrich and Ken Starr hold the record for the most ridiculous, partisan, politically motivated witch hunt in the history of American politics.

But Darrell Issa is fast on track to beat them.

Anyone every investigate Issa? How many times has that guy been arrested?

Issa has been arrested twice on illegal weapons charges. Can anyone say irony?

[ljb5]

Issa has been arrested twice on illegal weapons charges. Can anyone say irony?

Didn't he get busted for car theft a couple of times?

As I remember, he's the wealthiest member of Congress, thanks to his car alarm company. He is the voice of the "Viper" car alarm ("Stand Back. This car is protected by Viper.")

He got into the business after getting busted for GTA, although I think he got off and his brother ended up taking the fall.

[Joe ( Cold Spring on Hudson )]

I like the ones with Vin Deisel he's anouther cool bald guy

[RodSBT]

Issa has been arrested twice on illegal weapons charges. Can anyone say irony?

Yeah, Issa gets nailed for a gun in his glove compartment by way of an unconstitutional law and Holder heads an unconstitutional operation that illegally exports thousands of firearms purposely directed to drug cartels in order to create bad press and eventual outlawing of the second amendment. This "non issue" ends up causing at least one murder(border patrol agent) by the use of one of those "walked" guns and who knows how many more to follow.

Very ironic.

[RodSBT]

I like the ones with Vin Deisel he's anouther cool bald guy

Go do some pushups, Joe.

[Joe ( Cold Spring on Hudson )]

Did 200 this morning 2 reps of 100 each. Try it sometime not as easy as it is to type

[ccmanuals]

Yeah, Issa gets nailed for a gun in his glove compartment by way of an unconstitutional law and Holder heads an unconstitutional operation that illegally exports thousands of firearms purposely directed to drug cartels in order to create bad press and eventual outlawing of the second amendment. This "non issue" ends up causing at least one murder(border patrol agent) by the use of one of those "walked" guns and who knows how many more to follow.

Very ironic.

Rod, have you taken on the mantle to declare laws unconstitutional? It's a heavy burden to bear.

[RodSBT]

Rod, have you taken on the mantle to declare laws unconstitutional? It's a heavy burden to bear.

I realize its a challenge for you CC, but its not that difficult to read and understand the 2nd amend.
No mantle necessary.

[ljb5]

This "non issue" ends up causing at least one murder(border patrol agent) by the use of one of those "walked" guns and who knows how many more to follow.

It's a bit of a stretch to say the 'walked' gun caused the murder.

The murder was caused by the murderer. The gun is just a tool, remember? It doesn't cause anything.

If he didn't use that gun, he probably would have used a different gun. Or maybe a knife.

By your logic, we might say that gun makers or dealers cause murders. But I think you would object to that.

[Phillip Allen]

It's a bit of a stretch to say the 'walked' gun caused the murder.

The murder was caused by the murderer. The gun is just a tool, remember? It doesn't cause anything.

If he didn't use that gun, he probably would have used a different gun. Or maybe a knife.

By your logic, we might say that gun makers or dealers cause murders. But I think you would object to that.

do you not see that as 'spin'?

[ljb5]

do you not see that as 'spin'?

It's dogma among gun nuts.

Has been for decades.

The gun doesn't cause the murder.

The gun maker doesn't cause the murder.

The gun supplier doesn't cause the murder.

The murder is caused by the murderer.

[Phillip Allen]

It's dogma among gun nuts.

Has been for decades.

The gun doesn't cause the murder.

The gun maker doesn't cause the murder.

The gun supplier doesn't cause the murder.

The murder is caused by the murderer.

I understasnd now... you were being jocose

[Steve McMahon]

This thread was interesting until I took the time to go to "infowars.com", then it became scary. Who runs those websites and writes those stories? Worse yet, what kind of people get sucked in by them?

[ljb5]

While lj is correct ,,like saying that a hammer caused my sore thumb,,I don't think he truly believes it .

I would accept either that the hammer caused your sore thumb or that you caused your sore thumb by hitting it with a hammer.

But this is like blaming the guy at Home Depot who sold you the hammer... or the guy at Estwing who made the hammer.