Low ring count Fir

[andrewpatrol]

In my search for Fir mast timber is it a great mistake to buy timber with a ring count of 10 to the inch or there abouts ? High ring count is scarce as.

[PeterSibley]

10 should be fine, but not much wider than that .... maybe 8 ?

[seanz]

In my search for Fir mast timber is it a great mistake to buy timber with a ring count of 10 to the inch or there abouts ? High ring count is scarce as.

That's 1 ring per 2.5 mm........where are you getting this fantastic (by modern standards) Douglas Fir from?

Also, when you say "great mistake", how big a mast are you planning to build?

[PeterSibley]

That's 1 ring per 2.5 mm........where are you getting this fantastic (by modern standards) Douglas Fir from?

Certainly not EnZed

All my stash is at least that good and it all come out of demo yards or old houses. Most of it is Mt St Helens vintage.

[seanz]

Certainly not EnZed

All my stash is at least that good and it all come out of demo yards or old houses. Most of it is Mt St Helens vintage.

I resent that remark.

The 'Oregon' that is produced here is often just a timber-like substance but most of the imported Doug Fir in my house is 8 rings per inch at least.

OK, some of the floorboards are only 6 or 7 but the mantle-piece is 25..........

Needless to say.......that mantle-piece is coming with us when we leave.

[Gerarddm]

Mt St Helen's downed fir is rot prone, alas.

[Bob Smalser]

The old standard for Number One grade was 8 rpi.

The notion that high-rpi old-growth is stronger than plantation wood as low as 4rpi is easiy debunked by examining old USDA Wood Handbooks. They are about the same. Further, from my experience the high-rpi old-growth rots just as fast as sun-grown wood under the right conditions, although intuitively one would think the more latewood, the greater the rot resistance.

So in the final analysis, the advantage of old-growth is that the tight grain makes it easier to work. Period. If that's worth destroying British Columbia's remaining old-growth forests over (the only major current source of old-growth), then have at it.

Cosmo Lengro’s Boatbuilding Voodoo Hall of Fame
One-liners taken from a decade+ of reading boatbuilder’s on-line forums.

1) Old-growth wood is much stronger than modern, plantation-grown wood. (Those strength tables available for comparison in the pre-1940 editions of the USDA Wood Handbook used in Bureau of Ships reprints from DN Goodchild Publishing are really all just works of fiction.)

7) To produce the driest wood off the saw, trees should be harvested in winter. (That’s why all those 70,000lb-limit log trucks carry so many more board feet in January than they do in July. Or do they? )

Ned Ludd Corollary: Wood reclaimed from the Mount Saint Helens blast rotted quickly in marine service because it was blown down during “high-sap season” in May. (That it was the inland variety having lower rot resistance, was exposed to sap-boiling heat, and then lay on the ground for up to ten years before logging crews could reach it had nothing to do with it.)

.

[pcford]

The old standard for Number One grade was 8 rpi.

The notion that high-rpi old-growth is stronger than plantation wood as low as 4rpi is easiy debunked by examining old USDA Wood Handbooks. They are about the same. Further, from my experience the high-rpi old-growth rots just as fast as sun-grown wood under the right conditions, although intuitively one would think the more latewood, the greater the rot resistance.

So in the final analysis, the advantage of old-growth is that the tight grain makes it easier to work. Period. If that's worth destroying British Columbia's remaining old-growth forests over (the only major current source of old-growth), then have at it.

A note: Most experienced marine carpenters disagree with Smalser. Smalser is not an experienced marine carpenter. I have no idea why he persists in playing this charade. He has long experience in an honorable profession...it just was not related to boat building or boat restoration. I have no idea why he persists in attempting to convey a contrary impression.

[pcford]

Wood? Oh I dunno...

I was born to it. I worked at it as a kid under three generations of professional craftsmen, one a sawyer, one a real boatwright, the other a real shipwright. I have a college degree in it. And I've successfully owned and operated successful Doug Fir and WRC timber operations since 1975.

Other than that, I'm just guessing at it.

"Born to it..." Well, my father was a horse doctor...but I certainly would not claim any insight in the field. It's just that you come up with some odd prescriptions...and you deliver them in such a tone that many believe you.

I really don't know why owning a wood lot necessarily gives one skill at fitting wood. And what this? A college degree in boat restoration or building? Ok, good. Then when will you show a significant building or restoration project?

Oh, I am told you posted a fairly caustic comment before you quickly deleted it. Was that comment accusatory or explanatory?

[Bob Smalser]

Then when will you show a significant building or restoration project?

Forget this nonsense. I suggest you go get some help.

http://www.wkfinetools.com/contrib/b...lser-index.asp

http://www.woodcentral.com/cgi-bin/articles.pl#smalser

[PeterSibley]

I'll be putting the Mt St Helens rot idea to the test fairly soon, I hope it's wrong but thanks for the warning.

[andrewpatrol]

I'm building a 22 ft hollow round mast ( not birdsmouth ) mast and I dont want to have any doubts in it when the wind gets up. I just thought a high ring count was one of the highly sought after attributes when I go shopping in demo yards. I just need to know which wood to look past and not waste my money on. What about back sawn versus quarter sawn - does any one have any valid arguments for either. Quarter sawn is rare but desirable, back (flat) sawn is common but undesirable? Is it a problem if I build with back sawn or not. By the way the mast has two full sides with an infill piece between front and back, if that makes sense. Thanks to all those who can manage to put together an on topic sensible answer.

[Mrleft8]

High ring count is certainly much easier to work than fast grown stock, and to my eye, it looks much nicer. That said, I have built houses with D-fir framing that had 4 rings per inch, and they seem to be doing just fine after 30 plus years.....

[David G]

I'll be putting the Mt St Helens rot idea to the test fairly soon, I hope it's wrong but thanks for the warning.

I live in the Pacific NW. I've been a woodworker since 1972. I've built boats, repaired boats, built boaty bits, as well as building cabinetry, furniture, architectural millwork, hardscaping, and done a tiny bit of remodeling and contract framing. In those years and pursuits, I've used a fair bit of various grades of douglas fir.

I try and stay in touch with the latest from my colleagues. Nonetheless, I know nothing definitive about the Mt. St. Helens theory. The blowdown, slow harvest, rot already started notion is certainly plausible. And there certainly has been a pig of untrustworthy d.fir in the supply python. My own sense is that most of the bad wood has come and gone... but not all. Some is still in service, and will fail sooner than later. Some is still in storage, to be used later... with unknown results. I hope you'll keep us appraised of your impressions and results.

[wizbang 13]

I have found old growth, dense grain to be MUCH lighter in weight than the wood from 80 to 100 year old trees in my yard.
Some of Woodwinds planking has 40 -50 rings per inch. (Mt St Helens)

[Gib Etheridge]

10 or more rings per inch will do you just fine.

It looks as though you are building a square or rectangular hollow mast with fillers here and there. I would say that vertical grain is essential for that application. Besides the fact that flat grian boards will check they will also shrink and swell considerably. The filler will not, something will have to give.

I too have found that old growth high ring per inch fir is usually lighter than second or third growth material, often much lighter, and that it is noticably more flexible, qualities I would want in a mast. Low ring per inch fir from around here will often get so hard and brittle once it has dried out that the only way to frame with it without having it crack when nailed is to predrill it.


Rot resistance in fir is so variable, old growth or second growth, driftwood or Mt. St. Helens, KD or AD that it's hardly worth considering, and there's no way to test for it, so good building practice is your best option. Once again, vertical grain is the number one choice. Surface checks in flat grain let water into the interior of the board, or worse, into the interior of the mast. Tight joinery and the exclusion of water are the keys to rot resistance. I've never known anyone to do it but I have often thought that treating the interior faces of a hollow mast with waterborn borax wood preservatve, available as "Roach Prufe" at Walmart and other fine outlets would do that quite nicely, provided it was not applied to the gluing faces and that it was allowed to dry thoroughly before assembly. I would stand the heel of the mast in a bucket of the stuff overnight, then let it dry then seal it in with a transparent sealer. Varnish would be my first choice.

[David G]

Two things I'd add to Gib's comments.

First - I want to agree with and re-emphasize the notion that moisture intrusion is the primary enemy of a spar. Douglas fir is usually more rot-resistant than Sitka Spruce (so there's at least some payback for the additional weight aloft, reduced strength/weight ratio). But keep in mind that good joinery and a quality finish are simply the first two lines of defense... and the most obvious ones. Where I find the most intrusion is at the fasteners for fixtures and fittings. Attaching spreaders. Mounting radar. Fitting a cranse iron. Etc. Don't forget to predrill, seal your predrilled hole (thick shellac, epoxy, etc.) and then bed each add-on carefully.

Second - the comments about vertical grain. If prefer not to use dead vertical grain for staves on a hollow spar. Flat grain will, indeed, offer the drawbacks mentioned. Vertical grain d.fir, otoh, is more prone to splitting upon impact, or when driving fasteners. So I aim for a more diagonal grain - say anything from 45 to 80 degrees off the face of the stave. I shy away from 90 degree (perfectly vertical) grain.

[BrianM]

A note: Most experienced marine carpenters disagree with Smalser. Smalser is not an experienced marine carpenter. I have no idea why he persists in playing this charade. He has long experience in an honorable profession...it just was not related to boat building or boat restoration. I have no idea why he persists in attempting to convey a contrary impression.

So PC, instead of denigrating a man who has contributed volumes of great information, maybe you could be of some use to somebody and cough it up.. what lumber do you recommend for mast building?

10 years ago I started on this forum and for 10 years, you've repeatedly been an arrogant %^&*(*%#$*(&^*)&^)%^*)&^^... and then some...
Put the insecurity away and contribute or *&()*&)(&*)(&*) off!

[TerryLL]

So PC, instead of denigrating a man who has contributed volumes of great information, maybe you could be of some use to somebody and cough it up.. what lumber do you recommend for mast building?

10 years ago I started on this forum and for 10 years, you've repeatedly been an arrogant %^&*(*%#$*(&^*)&^)%^*)&^^... and then some...
Put the insecurity away and contribute or *&()*&)(&*)(&*) off!

If you've been on this forum for 10 years and aren't aware of Smalser's many arrogant and disrespectful remarks to a multitude of other members, then you've not been paying attention.

Agreed that Smalser contributes valuable information on a wide variety of subjects, as does PC. But if I want boatbuilding advice, Smalser ain't the guy I'd be asking.

[pcford]

So PC, instead of denigrating a man who has contributed volumes of great information, maybe you could be of some use to somebody and cough it up.. what lumber do you recommend for mast building?

10 years ago I started on this forum and for 10 years, you've repeatedly been an arrogant %^&*(*%#$*(&^*)&^)%^*)&^^... and then some...
Put the insecurity away and contribute or *&()*&)(&*)(&*) off!

Sorry you feel that way; I really am not insecure...at least not in the stuff I have been doing for 35 years. I would use tight grain spruce or douglas fir.

You and I have a difference of opinion on who might be the arrogant one in this thread. Bob announces his opinions in a lofty manner yet gets pi$$y if someone disagrees with him. There are lots of ways to accomplish the same ends in boat building/restoration...but Smalser would have us believe that his is the only proper way. Most professionals here offer an opinion and if one differs you can just move on. Jay Greer has strong opinions but I respect them and his work.

I was talking to a professional boatwright a few days ago and he said he took offense, like I did, to Bob's dismissive recommendations about buying from backwoods lumber operations. Don't get me wrong...these guys are great...to a man they have been good folks...but they can't always supply what you need. Sometimes it is better to pay a high BF and get exactly what you need.

As you know, Smalser's advice is usually basic woodworking skills. I would recommend reading it...in particular his illustrated "talks." (People do appreciate the "pics.") However, his is not the only opinion...I would advise you not take his advice as God's own truth. You are brighter than that.

By the way, I asked Bob to share boatbuilding projects...he furnished a couple urls. This is the only boat that I could find in that list:



I will say it once again, for advice...don't believe me, don't believe Smalser. Educate yourself from as many sources as possible. I have absolutely no pride when seeking answers. I ask as many people as possible; I then choose which one fits my experiences and prejudices. Why Smalser gets so peeved when someone disagrees is a subject for discussion elsewhere.

Good luck to you.

[BrianM]

If you've been on this forum for 10 years and aren't aware of Smalser's many arrogant and disrespectful remarks to a multitude of other members, then you've not been paying attention.

Agreed that Smalser contributes valuable information on a wide variety of subjects, as does PC. But if I want boatbuilding advice, Smalser ain't the guy I'd be asking.

I don't read everything Smalser publishes, but I sure do look forward to it when I notice something new. Yea, there are always great illustrations, but time and time again, he had backed his statements on wood properties with hard DATA.

Many people appreciate this and since I "Do" data for a living, I'm one of them.. there's nothing like putting up proof to support an idea.

It also seems many are flustered by numbers, tables, and facts. There are plenty of people who are always snarky on this forum, and always have been. I have not picked up that demeanor from Bob's posts, but maybe I'm not offended by the way he thinks and communicates.

MAST MAKING
Back to the topic on Mast Material, it's too bad Yellow Cedar doesn't have the properties desirable for mast making because it sure stands up to hellacious abuse from a decay standpoint.

[wizbang 13]

I WISH my masts were AYC.

[Yeadon]

I WISH my masts were AYC.

I thought about making a birdsmouth spar from AYC, but since no one else was doing I really didn't want to be the guy who found out the hard way why that was true. Anyways, doug fir pretty much grows on trees around here.

So, why AYC for a mast?

[pcford]

I don't read everything Smalser publishes, but I sure do look forward to it when I notice something new. Yea, there are always great illustrations, but time and time again, he had backed his statements on wood properties with hard DATA.

Many people appreciate this and since I "Do" data for a living, I'm one of them.. there's nothing like putting up proof to support an idea.

Then you believe that quoting from a wood as engineering material manual is the ultimate proof? Is that right?

[Gerarddm]

Very fortunate to get a small order of Doug Fir today from Edensaw and it looks like 18-20 rings per inch to me. Yeehah!

[andrewpatrol]

Hi All, picked up the relevant pieces of info from sensible replies to my thread ( No thanks to those who cant help themselves by contributing absolutely nothing in way of valuable info to a thread - as usual more than 1/2 is rubbish ) and used it to pick up two 8" x 3" x 23 ft quarter sawn beams from a demo yard. They look to have between 10 and 20 rings, so I'm pretty happy. Now all i gotta do is figure out how I'm gonna cut it. The rings vary from dead vertical to about 45 degrees ( in the dark)
Thanks Andrew

[PeterSibley]

That beam sounds just like one I bought 3 months ago from a demo yard.... my spars too!

[Mrleft8]

The rings vary from dead vertical to about 45 degrees ( in the dark)
Thanks Andrew

.... Yeah...... But what are they in the light?....... Hmmmmm????????

[BrianM]

Then you believe that quoting from a wood as engineering material manual is the ultimate proof? Is that right?

You've already made your mindset very clear over 10 years buddy. There's no point in engaging you.

[BrianM]

Further uphill in the thread, the virtues of ring count and how they may or may not relate to rot resistance where raised. My experience with Yellow Cedar is that its the "last lumber standing" when decay claims other materials. The only damage I've seen to it has been from delignification in the presence of metal fasteners.

On masts in general, since they are a pretty critical element, I like to keep my eye on them which is a good reason to oil or varnish them. By virtue of the attention the stick gets, decay get's my attention quickly. I'm thinking that "ultimate" decay resistance probably is not #1 on the list of important characteristics of a trustworthy mast (at least to someone who is going to check it regularly).

A Yellow Cedar mast would be far more forgiving then the Spruce stick in my boat.

[chas]

I've used a lot of SPF #2 and better rated framing lumber for staging planks in the past. I'll take fir every day for its greater resistance to deflection. I'm sure this would be helpful for masts in some ways. Some of the older recycled fir around here mills more like maple.

Good luck with the sparmaking. / Jim

[Canoeyawl]

Further uphill in the thread, the virtues of ring count and how they may or may not relate to rot resistance where raised. My experience with Yellow Cedar is that its the "last lumber standing" when decay claims other materials.

For my money, Port Orford Cedar is the one...

[TerryLL]

You've already made your mindset very clear over 10 years buddy. There's no point in engaging you.

So Brian, you called PC a bunch of names earlier in this thread. I think your exact words were:

"...you've repeatedly been an arrogant %^&*(*%#$*(&^*)&^)%^*)&^^... and then some... Put the insecurity away and contribute or *&()*&)(&*)(&*) off!"

He responded in a very civil manner, twice in fact, attempting to engage you in a rational discussion.

Both your initial outburst and your subsequent response was rude and inappropriate. Please clean up your act.

[wizbang 13]

FWIW, I do not want PC Ford , (or Cleek, or SRS for that matter), to "clean up his act" . I come here for entertainment first. Learning from and maybe helping others, second.
I do not read "half rubbish".

[BrianM]

So Brian, you called PC a bunch of names earlier in this thread. I think your exact words were:

"...you've repeatedly been an arrogant %^&*(*%#$*(&^*)&^)%^*)&^^... and then some... Put the insecurity away and contribute or *&()*&)(&*)(&*) off!"

He responded in a very civil manner, twice in fact, attempting to engage you in a rational discussion.

Both your initial outburst and your subsequent response was rude and inappropriate. Please clean up your act.

Rude?!?!?!?!?&(*#&%)(*&_$)%)(*$+$_(&*_$*_+#$()%(

(you seem to read more into symbols of punctuation than I do.. they are just symbols of punctuation) : o but you can substitute the word "cheese" if you need something to fill in the blanks....



Rude... isn't that the standard that PC sets when he denigrates a contributor like Smalser? I've already engaged with PC many times over 10 years and the outcome is very predictable.

BUT thanks hall monitor for being so vigilant... perhaps you might apply your policing activities evenly (you might say "...hey PC how about not breaking Bob's balls because you don't agree with him..."), or maybe TerryLL, how about NOT AT ALL.

and I'll reiterate since this statement was ignored:


.. there's nothing like putting up proof to support an idea.

[David G]

Brian M -- for those of us who are interested in the topic, but have no particular dog in the fight, I have to say you're making an awful ass of yourself.

[BrianM]

Brian M -- for those of us who are interested in the topic, but have no particular dog in the fight, I have to say you're making an awful ass of yourself.

[Duncan Gibbs]

FWIW Hoop Pine (a local Oz timber) is a terrific mast timber and probably stronger than DF.

[seanz]

Really Duncan, I think this thread is contentious enough already.

[Duncan Gibbs]

Whadabout carbon fibre?

[andrewpatrol]

How do you count the rings on it?
I reckon Iain O would freak out if he saw a CF spar on one of his designs ( Grey Seal)
More seriously, it may be that one of the 2nd hand beams I bought might have heart shakes ( I think its called that ) B ugger. One day I'll get around to cutting it and know for sure.

[PeterSibley]

FWIW Hoop Pine (a local Oz timber) is a terrific mast timber and probably stronger than DF.

He's right you know, Andrew's local timber merchant will quote on it.

[Duncan Gibbs]

They're actually the same except for hardness (janka) which sees Hoop marginally harder.

You should be able to get clear, straight Hoop from any decent timber merchant in Melbourne. Here's a few to choose from that I found on the Woodwork Forum:

http://www.bowerbirdtimber.com/
http://timbersearch.com.au/
http://urbansalvage.com.au/
http://www.mathewstimber.com.au/
http://www.shivermetimbers.com.au/
http://www.loggerheads.com.au/

A couple of them seem pretty far flung though.

My brother often gets his stock from Melville Timber (172 Melville Road Brunswick West VIC 3055 Ph. 9386 4851)

[Farfalla]

Spruce is the traditional timber for spars and is still the choice if available. Fir is commonly substituted but is generally considered to be stiffer and heavier.

Here is a comparison of Spruce, Fir and the Hoop pine you recommend, I'm not familiar with it at all.

http://flysafe.raa.asn.au/scratchbui...html#table_2-7

Have fun,
Sophie

[andrewpatrol]

just to fill in for the newcomers, I have two 6.9metre fir (oregon) beams I picked up from a recycle yard, although one looks like it might be dodgy. Spruce I havent even considered cos its too exxy. Hoop frankly I didnt think of but I doubt if could get in 6.7 metre lengths. Thanks for the timber mobs Duncan, I have dealt with some of them in the past.

[PeterSibley]

Any photos of the dodgy oregon Andrew? Are you sure you can't just cut out any problems and scarf up the lengths you need ?

[David G]

Another thought for the hoop pine. We actually have an OZ-based timber dealer here in Portland, Oregon - Moxon. I've been quite impressed with them, and I know they have facilities in OZ as well.

[rregge]

Since I only plan to build small day sailboats I think I will hold on to my stash of 30-40 ring per inch 4" x 4" x 16ft 50 year old red spruce that I picked up for for less than 1$/bf a few years back . Just finished the boom and gunter pole. Did all the work with a LN small spoke shave. It is sooo sweet to plane with that little tool.

I hope my kids take up small boat building...I still have another 26 sticks left.

Russell

[Bob Cleek]

I'll be putting the Mt St Helens rot idea to the test fairly soon, I hope it's wrong but thanks for the warning.

Living here in Northern California relatively close to Mt. St. Helens in terms of timber distribution, I can say that the undisputed "word on the street" regarding Mt. St. Helen's windfall salvage timber is exactly as Smalser reported. It would be suitable for construction timber because it would be closed in. The current energy efficiency codes produce buildings so tight they'd probably float just fine! (A lot of new construction here is now wrapped in waterproof plastic Tyvek.) Little problem with "rot prone" timber in such applications. On the other hand, it is indisputable that the Mt. St. Helens Doug fir is of the "inland" rather than the "coastal" subspecies, and the differences in rot resistance between the two are well documented. And, as Bob said, the salvage windfall has been laying on the ground for decades now, in an area with high rain and snow fall rates and much of it was exposed to searing heat in the pyroclastic flows. Nobody seems to think it is worth much for boatbuilding timber.

On the other hand, there is reportedly some salvage harvested Alaska Yellow Cedar (now determined to actually be a true cypress) coming on the market that seems excellent. AYC is well known as a premiere planking species (very low movement, good decay resistance.) AYC is sensitive to climate change. As the climate has warmed in some areas, less snow stays on the ground. Without the snow layer to insulate the ground, the roots freeze and the trees die. (The species is not in any apparent danger of extinction, though. The forest just "moves" by reseeding in areas more favorable to its growth.) Studies done on AYC which has been standing dead for as much as 80 or 100 years shows that a remarkable percentage of this dead wood is perfectly fine for harvesting and milling. (Its age shows it wasn't because of THAT "global warming.") While the trees exhibit some deterioration on the surface, the extent being relative to the length of time they've been dead, the inner wood remains pristine.

[andrewpatrol]

Any photos of the dodgy oregon Andrew? Are you sure you can't just cut out any problems and scarf up the lengths you need ?

I will try soon Peter for some pics, I am trying to get away from scarfing that's why I bought long. I cut the end ( 50 mm) off one of them to get rid of some rot and it fell to bits in my hand and the end of the beam had further checks through it with that moisture grey stain around them. There are other slivers checking off along the length and the other end has a small tell tale piece that has ejected itself out of surrounding wood. I might get it out on weekend and cut it up to see if the weather holds off. I might be able to get what I want for mast out of other beam, I was hoping to use this one too for boom etc.