Pooduck - with trepidation

[Wacoflyr]

Those laminations are a big step. About the 1/8" springback; I would cut the sides as it is, and not worry about the 1/8" on the inside. You will just have less to cut back for the inwale, and the boat's scantlings are extremely robust; nothing will be measurably weaker. If you use a cross piece to pull it in, then the frame may force the sheer plank out of a fair curve when you remove the piece. Maybe not though; 3/8 is pretty thick, and quite stiff. The other dimension is probably no problem either, but you should be aware that the centerboard trunk stops right at the forward face of the frame. It shouldn't matter, though.

In other words, i don't think you need to sweat either issue too much. All the same, if you side the frame as shown on the plans, you will find extremely strong.

Other, more professional voices will probably chime in. Full speed ahead!


Wacoflyr

[Wacoflyr]

Almost forgot: i made a plywood pattern for the frame. Much easier to adjust and align.

[Don S]

Thanks, Wacoflyr, your thinking -- with the benefit of having done the build yourself -- pretty much tracks what's in my mind. I did make a half pattern of the mid frame, which I can flip over to mirror image. I cut (estimated) the pattern, to fit with the plan, not to conform to my 1/8" springback issue. Anyway, I want to make sure the frame is beefy enough. Seems a shame to cut away so much of that hard won laminated blank, but I imagine it builds character

A fellow who is going to help build a leanto onto my tiny shop (for storing you know what, and an alternative place to work, etc, etc) stopped by to talk about the project and noticed my now planed down midframe. He was intrigued because he needs to create an oval frame to stretch beaver pelts and his 3/4" laminations just wouldn't work, even steam bent. So I gave him the run down on size of laminations, springback , cracking,etc. Strange, no? Fortuitously, he will also pick up my plywood from in the city (Halifax) since he works there and has a truck.

Now the need for screws, silicon bronze preferably, but stainless if I throw in the towel, jumps up on the list. Can't wait to get to the scarfing PW in my tiny shop.

[Wacoflyr]

I know nothing of imports into the beautiful, wonderful, soverign country of Canada. All I can say is that you will never see the vast majority of these screws again, and that stainless is famously short-lived without o2. This build will cost you more than you thought, by a good bit. Bronze is cheap, in the long run. Please let me know if i can help. I will happily send boxes of 8* 1-1/2 and 8*1 north. Just give me the word, and i will raid Hamilton's Marine and get together a box to send. Note: talk to either woodenboat or me when it comes to rudder hardware. The good stuff is available! Use bronze. Please let us help!

[Don S]

The good stuff is available! Use bronze. Please let us help![/QUOTE]

Very very generous,and I may well take you up on the offer. I have a couple of sources to check out for screws. And I suppose I can order from Hamilton Marine, but sometimes the shipping from the states is pretty slow, and the duty assessment at the border unpredictable. Hamilton Marine's website is not clear as to whether they ship to Canada -- I'll check.

On the point, I was in a fastener store the other day to get an idea of what is around, and I was in the city to buy epoxy -- and to discover that the place that sells plywood does not have the capability to cut it, or to deliver, so I would have to bring my own saw . . . Anyway, the fastener place was indeed well stocked, organized, friendly and helpful. But no silicon bronze, except for a couple of washers that I got on a whim for another project (slip connections on weather vanes I sometimes make -- I've previously improvised with nylon bushings, but 3/8 seems to be the limit of what I can find).

Then, assuming one had a choice of screws, would you choose slotted, square,frearson or phillips? Instructor I had at WB school said only use slotted because it's a bear to clean out and back out other designs. I suppose it only takes one really bad experience to convince. On the other hand, driving slotted is no fun.

[Wacoflyr]

I used frearson, but i don't think that's much of a reccomendation. I also wrecked a lot of bronze. I expect your instructor was right, i just didn't know better at the time. As to sources, Hamilton is local to me, but Jamestown Distributors is at least as well known down here, and they have a very helpful web site. By far the most expensive bronze was the #10 screws to hold the seats, at a buck a piece, and then there is that 6" job for the keel. 11 bucks for that sucker. Individual screws or small quantities (such as for the seats) might be tough to get. Hamilton's let's me get just what i need. Let me know what i can do.

[Wacoflyr]

One more thing: the build starts with mostly number 8's, i believe in just two lengths. Those two boxes of screws will hold you for quite a while. I highly reccommend a Fuller counterbore for them, as well as the associated plug cutter. These are expensive tools, and there are cheaper versions on the market. I have tried several others, only to wish i had spent the big money earlier. The plug cutter comes into it's own when you put on the rails, which is a little further along. You can hold off on that purchase.

I keep hoping that someone else will chime in. This was my first build, and i suspect others might have different/better advice.

[Don S]

I got the Fuller set a while back, "in preparation" (and also have tried others . . . .). Greg Roessel recommends changing the tapered bits for regular ones; I'm not sure how much of a difference this makes. I wish the materials list had given an estimate of the number of screws needed; the Shellback book does give this info, but of course that is for different thickness plywood. I guess I'll learn about the proper insertion of flat head wood screws without crushing the veneer, and the whole counterbore/plug routine where that is called for; and how to distinguish one situation from the other. Quite different from non-boat building where I never am much concerned with such things.

I keep finding things on the plans that make me wonder. On the fastener protocol I try to glean which way the screw is oriented in all situations and I know that is silly to expect from a set of plans that assume one has some familiarity with building, and some commmon sense. Funny how one's sense of competence becomes questioned when the building involves a boat -- and maybe as one gets older too. At least for me. And of course I need to remember that the idea of building with epoxy is to minimize the number of fasteners, except as temporary mini-clamps for the plank laps

One exclusion/omission from the plan that is referred to on the materials list is wood for 4 quarter knees. I only see 2 on the plans, but assume the second pair goes, as per the Shellback design, as seat support on the forward thwart.

Don't worry about others chiming in. I'm posting a bit to clarify my own thinking, and any help along the way is just a bonus. If I really get stuck I imagine I'll scream pretty loud; or just curl up in a corner. Certainly this project demands a pacing of effort that I haven't had to encounter in a while.

[Wacoflyr]

As to the quarter knees; there are none on the middle thwart. Perhaps that 3/8 " plywood is strong enough not to need them. J.W. seems to have believed in a belt and suspenders approach, so he specifies screws where the planks meet the transom, stern and stem, as well as epoxy. Those planks aint never comin' off. More later. Got to work.

[Wacoflyr]

To amplify further, in all of the photos that i have seen of other pooducks, i do not recall seeing any quarter knees on the middle thwart. There are no patterns for them in the plans, either. I don't have my boat here to look at (my job is done on the road) but i seem to recall using 4*4*6 mahogany blocks, cut on the diagonal for seat risers. Screwed through the plank as well as epoxied into place, they are not moving. The thwart, which is 1*6 or so, is secured to the risers with 2 #10*2" screws at each end. I haven't had her out yet, ( hope to launch in two weeks) but the whole setup seems very strong to me.

As for the orientation of all that bronze, the screws that secure the planks to the stem, frame and transom start from outside the boat, go through the plank and into the structure, just as with a carvel planked boat. Great care should be taken when counterboring through your planks, so that the hole is just deep enough so that the head of the screw can just be covered with the filler of your choice (i like Quickfair, by system three) I found it helpful to practice counterboring on scrap first, so that i didn't wreck anything.

One thing that i wish i had done, was buy a brace. That would have provided more of a touch when driving the screws, and it will certainly be my next tool purchase.

It takes fortitude to drill that first hole in your boat, but after awhile you realize that even accidental holes are not a great problem. Most things can be fixed.

[Don S]

Getting ready to order screws, etc. from Jamestown . . .

Question: plan calls for machine screws for fastening the bottom, mast step and rudder hangers. But plan does not say what kind of machine screws. I'm assuming all are flat head, especially since it seems like they're the only ones that come in up to 6 inch length.

Thanks for any guidance . . .

[Wacoflyr]

I believe all of the machine screws are flathead. If you buy the rudder hanger kit from woodenboat, it comes with all of the necessary screws and hardware. I thought it was a good value.

[Don S]

Looks like WB Store stocks much of the stuff I can't or wont order elsewhere because most places require you to buy a whole box of something you may only need a half dozen.

I'm going with frearson screws.

[Don S]

Back again.

Haven't posted for awhle because I haven't figured out the photo thing, and I know everyone likes that. My wife says she will help, based on the instructions Thorne posted years ago.

Worked out a lot of logistics and sourcing materials. Wound up mail ordering hardware/fasteners, etc., from the States. shipping postal policies vary. But it's the best one can do without a local Hamilton Marine or comparable. Decided on Frearson screws. And Mas epoxy

Anyhow. I've gotten along some, encountered the usually challenges as a first build, as well as the general dumbfounded reactions to plans without instructions. Built a leanto to work covered outdoors, due to tiny shop, or at least almost as big as the hull therein; it's worked well for scarfing up those long things; and for sawing stuff outdoors so as not to breath so much sawdust. Ok so far, except for recent mosquito invasion. Innovated, reinvented, torn apart and redid, double and triple checked and still make errors. The jig worked out ok , although everything seemed to drop 1/4 - 1/2 inch, perhaps due to some inaccuracy on laminated stem. But, in the end (after ripping out and redoing a faulty garboard glue job after 2 + hours, the hull came out symmetrical, which I'm taking as a good sign.

Rigged up a hoist; raised the hull; removed the jig and strongback, and with help only from the wife, lowered the hull on horses, and rolled it over. Breasthook gluing up today. Cut out inwales and scarfed; cut out rails -- will probably scarf tomorrow. Both are slightly oversized, which doesn't bother me, and will assure screws wont come through hull.

Always trying to think two or three steps ahead, I'm working on ideas for seats, including removable side seats. Also beginning to contemplate painting. Went to fiberglass store yesterday and the saleslady heavily recommended epoxy based paint. I don't think I'll go that way, but am very open to suggestions for how to approach painting. Still considering putting some glass like protection on the bottom . . .


Also remembered I need to get stock to glue up spars. Except for that I think I have all the wood I need on hand.


On the issue of getting out centerboard and transom as well as bottom from two 3/4 sheets/scarfed -- I found enough scrap to scarf up a centerboard - only, after making my calculation I had a mental glitch and wound up making two scarfs -- I'm getting good at them -- instead of one. However, the board is straight, and I guess it wont be seen much, regardless of whether painted or epoxied.

Most major concern: did I get my first (bottom to garboard) joint fitted well enough, glued well enough. I'm guessing "good enough".

I've benefited a lot from the help on this thread, and the photos of links (ps - note John How's Pooduck link is out of business

[John How]

I've benefited a lot from the help on this thread, and the photos of links (ps - note John How's Pooduck link is out of business

I'm not sure how that happened Don (prolly fat fingered something on the computer) but I will try to get some pics back up there. Mean time keep up the work and try to post pics!

[Wacoflyr]

Wow. You have really been going at it! FWIW, I went with standard enamel both inside and out, over primer. I epoxy coated the the bottom and garboard strake both inside and out, but the only thing I actually glassed was the centerboard. I'm beginning to think I should have coated all the plywood. I did coat the inside of the centerboard trunk. With help from a friend, I made all of the spars hollow using birdsmouth constructiion. This took about 6 hours per spar, and was just plain fun, and surprisingly easy, if you are comfortable with a table saw.

Keep up the good work!

[Don S]

7736440880_bc6c4c2658_t.jpg

test!

It looks like the resolution on my camera settings are too large to copy anything but thumbnails to the forum page. I guess I'll have to resize them somehow and/or change my photographing habits. My wife says I'll need to be more flexible. My habit is to go for reasonably high resolution. Oh well. Anyway, I'll post a few more photos of progress to date.

[Don S]

Thar she is at the moment. Out wales attached; breasthook and quarter knees; added a 3/8" strip of wood on top of the pw transom; working on filling laps and holes, and sanding; plugged some counterbores on the inside; marked the sheer for installation of the seat risers and spacers/inwales.

Any tricks to locating and centering the seat risers? (I'm working on a design for removable side seats).

Wondering about a few things: like what is the next step? Some say do the risers/seats and centerboard -- or finish the inwales?

And I'm really conflicted about boring holes through the strakes for the painter. Anyone used or have an idea for an alternative?

[Wacoflyr]

Sorry, was cruising my B32 downeast for a while. I didn't bore those stinkn' holes. I ordered a big, beefy bronze towing eye from Hamilton. One reason is that you can (properly) install it down low so that the boat will tow properly, which I can now report that she does. Drilling the necessary hole in the stem was a bit like prospecting. I got lucky, and didn't hit any bronze.

The middle thwarts and the centerboard case help locate each other. As I recall, the plans are not as clear as they might be about the location of the thwarts. I believe that the height was unclear. If you use the centerboard case's measurements, you can locate the two thwarts that way, but I remember there was some guesswork to the whole thing. I studied the construction plans, and then figured their height based on the seams of the planks. Not very scientific. I made my case one inch too long. Oops. I thought that would really mess things up, but the boat sails well, anyway.

I enjoyed making the case and the seats. These were not difficult parts (not like that #%$ breasthook) just a bit tedious.

[Don S]

Wacoflyr, out cruising sounds a whole lot better than surfing the net!

Ah, the breasthook. Everyone seems to have an experience. Mine involved pulling it apart a couple hours after gluing: I had used a center connecting piece, per Tom Hill's recommendation not just to glue up the two halves because they are "short grain". I did so and, instead of inserting a bronze rod per plans, which would have been maybe impossible, I inserted two big bronze screws into the side pieces and drilled holes in the center piece to embed the exposed screw heads in some epoxy. Fine, but I realized after gluing ( and let's not forget the tricky clamping job) that I had not packed the cavity I created for the heads with thickened epoxy. I debated about whether the whole exercise was only theoretical anyway, but in the end, took it apart, added epoxy to the hole cavities, and put it back together. Getting the angles right required some effort too. We wont mention that after I used a contrasting piece of cherry for the center connector piece that made it's off-centeredness all too obvious. I figure when I carve the stem, much of that asymmetry will disappear.

Wacoflyr, thanks for the mention of the centerboard case in relation to locating the thwarts. That added reference point should help fill in some ambiguities on the plan.

Glued up some eastern white cedar (actually 1 + inch decking I picked through at a local place that specializes in things cedar), and rough ripped some mahogany to 1 1/2 x 2 1/2 for the seat risers. The glued up the seat blanks are about 10 inches and I may leave the forward and aft seats a bit wide. Still thinking about design for removable side seats, which ought to be able to be added pretty much anytime before painting. I want to avoid too much permanent installation on the side of the hull to support the side seats and, I even wonder, perhaps simply cleating them to stern and middle thwarts will be sufficient -- if you consider the weight bearing points (vs hull 'torque, etc.)

Hand routed some mahog into half round for the sheer trim/rub stripe and am trying to figure ways to install using minimal screws -- shouldn't be too hard; the stuff is quite flexible. Might involve a few new long throat clamps though, which is fine with me.

So I'm working along, but I will need to hang it up in a couple of weeks due to an early return South. Probably will try to bring some stuff to continue work away from the boat, like put together rudder, tiller, centerboard, maybe even spars. . . .