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Thread: DEA Gently Chastized

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    Default DEA Gently Chastized

    From Reason:

    Ninth Circuit to DEA: Putting a Gun to an 11-Year-Old's Head Is Not OK

    Mike Riggs | June 18, 2012

    At 7 a.m. on January 20, 2007, DEA agents battered down the door to Thomas and Rosalie Avina’s mobile home in*Seeley, California, in*search of suspected drug trafficker Louis Alvarez.*Thomas Avina met the agents in his living room and told them they were making a mistake. Shouting “Don’t you fucking move,” the agents forced Thomas Avina to the floor at gunpoint, and handcuffed him and his wife, who had been lying on a couch in the living room. As the officers made their way to the back of the house, where the Avina’s 11-year-old and 14-year-old daughters were sleeping, Rosalie Avina screamed, “Don’t hurt my babies. Don’t hurt my babies.”

    The agents entered the 14-year-old girl’s room first, shouting “Get down on the fucking ground.” The girl, who was lying on her bed, rolled onto the floor, where the agents handcuffed her. Next they went to the 11-year-old’s room. The girl was sleeping. Agents woke her up by shouting “Get down on the fucking ground.” The girl’s eyes shot open, but she was, according to her own testimony, “frozen in fear.” So the agents dragged her onto the floor. While one agent handcuffed her, another held a gun to her head.

    Moments later the two daughters were carried into the living room and placed next to their parents on the floor while DEA agents ransacked their home. After 30 minutes, the agents removed the children’s handcuffs. After two hours, the agents realized they had the wrong house—the product of a sloppy license plate transcription—and left.*

    In 2008, the Avinas—mom, dad, and both daughters—filed a federal suit against the DEA for excessive use of force, assault, and battery in the U.S. District Court for the Southern District of California. That court ruled in favor of the DEA, and the Avinas appealed.*Last week, the family got justice.

    While the Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals defended the agents' rough treatment of Thomas and Rosalie, it also declared that yanking the Avina children of their beds and putting guns to their heads did, in fact, constitute the “intentional infliction of emotional distress.”

    "A jury could find that the agents pointed their guns at the head of an eleven-year-old girl, 'like they were going to shoot [her],' while she lay on the floor in handcuffs, and that it was excessive for them to do so," reads the Ninth Circuit's decision, which was filed June 12. "Similarly, a jury could find that the agents’ decision*to force the two girls to lie face down on the floor with their hands cuffed behind their backs was unreasonable."

    More from the decision:

    Under our case law, an issue of material fact exists as to whether the actions of the agents were excessive in light of the ages of B.S.A. (age eleven) and B.F.A. (age fourteen) and the limited threat they posed. See Tekle, 511 F.3d 839 (holding that officers were not entitled to summary judgment on excessive force claim where officers pointed guns at an eleven-year-old boy’s head during the arrest of the boy’s father); Motley v. Parks, 432 F.3d 1072, 1089 (9th Cir. 2005) (en banc) (holding that officer’s act of pointing a gun at an infant during the search of a gang member’s house was objectively unreasonable); see also McDonald ex rel. McDonald v. Haskins, 966 F.2d 292, 294-95 (7th Cir. 1992) (holding that officer’s act of*pointing his gun at a nine-year-old’s head during the search of home was excessive use of force). Accordingly, we reverse the district court’s grant of summary judgment in favor of the United States on B.F.A.’s and B.S.A.’s claims for assault and battery.

    In a footnote, the court wrote:

    Although there is evidence that the agents released the girls from their handcuffs once they realized how young they were, there is also evidence that the agents knew, prior to entering the girls’ bedrooms, that the girls were children. Rosalie testified that, as the agents were heading towards the girls’ rooms, she screamed at the agents several times, “Don’t hurt my babies.” Moreover, one of the agents testified at his deposition that, when he first saw one of the girls (presumably the older of the two girls), she appeared to be “12 [or] 13 years old.”

    The ruling concludes:

    Viewing the evidence in the light most favorable to the Avinas, a rational trier of fact could find that agents engaged in “extreme or outrageous” conduct when the agents: (1)*pointed their guns at the head of eleven-year-old B.S.A. “like they were going to shoot [her]” while B.S.A. was lying on the floor in handcuffs; (2) forced eleven-year-old B.S.A. and fourteen-year-old B.F.A. to lie face down on the floor with their hands cuffed behind their backs; (3) left B.S.A. and B.F.A. in handcuffs for half an hour; and (4) yelled at eleven-year-old B.S.A. and fourteen-year-old B.F.A. to “[g]et down on the f[uck]ing ground.” See Tekle, 511 F.3d at 856 (holding that officers were not entitled to summary judgment on claim for intentional infliction of emotional distress where officers pointed guns at eleven-year old’s head during the arrest of the eleven-year-old’s father); see also id. at 859 (Fisher, J., concurring). Accordingly, we reverse the district court’s grant of*summary judgment in favor of the United States on B.F.A.’s and B.S.A.’s claims for intentional infliction of emotional distress.

    As a side note: While this raid was conducted under President George W. Bush, the deputy administrator of the DEA at that time was Michele Leonhart. She is now the administrator of the DEA, thanks to an appointment by President Barack Obama. Furthermore, the Obama Administration could have declined to defend the DEA in this case. Instead, Obama's Justice Department has decided to make the case that federal agents should be allowed to hold guns to the heads of children.*

    # # # # #

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    Default Re: DEA Gently Chastized

    It sounds like they just enjoyed it too much to exercise any judgement, and once the mistake had been discovered were way too pumped up to be able to back down.
    That said I imagine that the agent's jobs are not the least stressful there are given the arms available to those they are trying to arrest. There'd be none of that "fair cop governor" attitude, more likely bullets.

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    Default Re: DEA Gently Chastized

    effing thugs
    Mother, should I trust the government. . .

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    Default Re: DEA Gently Chastized

    Ian --
    As a side note: While this raid was conducted under President George W. Bush, the deputy administrator of the DEA at that time was Michele Leonhart. She is now the administrator of the DEA, thanks to an appointment by President Barack Obama. Furthermore, the Obama Administration could have declined to defend the DEA in this case. Instead, Obama's Justice Department has decided to make the case that federal agents should be allowed to hold guns to the heads of children.*
    Failure by 2 different, or so they say administrations..what happened to the 4th amendment...this is what a police state looks like..

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    Default Re: DEA Gently Chastized

    I'm not surprised. Actually, I'm surprised the DEA agents weren't handed medals,

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    Default Re: DEA Gently Chastized

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Pless View Post
    effing thugs
    Yep!
    Bruce Willis needs to beat the living dog $hit out of the bastids on national TV!
    Makes my blood boil to see the mistreatment of innocent people!

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    Default Re: DEA Gently Chastized

    Quote Originally Posted by RonW View Post
    Ian --

    Failure by 2 different, or so they say administrations..what happened to the 4th amendment...this is what a police state looks like..
    pssst....don't go berserk, Ron!
    It was not your house or my house.
    It was a highly publicized but isolated incident.
    Don't try to use it to support your troglodytic political beliefs.

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    Default Re: DEA Gently Chastized

    obama should be ashamed of his self

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    Default Re: DEA Gently Chastized

    Quote Originally Posted by wardd View Post
    obama should be ashamed of his self
    + 1000
    Mother, should I trust the government. . .

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    Default Re: DEA Gently Chastized

    Quote Originally Posted by wardd View Post
    obama should be ashamed of his self
    Now where is that Irony emoticon when you need it.

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    Default Re: DEA Gently Chastized

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Pless View Post
    + 1000
    horseshyte, and you know it!

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    Default Re: DEA Gently Chastized

    Quote Originally Posted by Glen Longino View Post
    horseshyte, and you know it!
    +10000?
    Mother, should I trust the government. . .

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    Default Re: DEA Gently Chastized

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Pless View Post
    +10000?
    +100,000!

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    Default Re: DEA Gently Chastized

    the agents should reimburse the government for it costs in this... out of all federal agents retirement funds

    BTW, the children WERE a threat... it would have been reasonable for one of the girls to have shot at the agents during their attack... they would have been killed for it of course... if not then, then later... but it still would be reasonable for the people of that home to stand their ground
    The doctrine of nonresistance against arbitrary power, and oppression, is absurd, slavish, and destructive of the good and happiness of mankind.
    Personal failures are too important to be trusted to others.

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    Default Re: DEA Gently Chastized

    and we wonder why police don't think they are bound by the law...
    The doctrine of nonresistance against arbitrary power, and oppression, is absurd, slavish, and destructive of the good and happiness of mankind.
    Personal failures are too important to be trusted to others.

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    Default Re: DEA Gently Chastized

    Quote Originally Posted by Phillip Allen View Post
    and we wonder why police don't think they are bound by the law...
    "We" don't wonder, Phillip!
    You wonder!
    Most of us know that Most policemen Know they are bound by the Law!
    Why don't you simply quit trying to blame all policemen for the few aberrant policemen who fit your neurotic symbolism of "police"?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Glen Longino View Post
    "We" don't wonder, Phillip!
    You wonder!
    Most of us know that Most policemen Know they are bound by the Law!
    Why don't you simply quit trying to blame all policemen for the few aberrant policemen who fit your neurotic symbolism of "police"?
    why? because of that 'blue line'
    The doctrine of nonresistance against arbitrary power, and oppression, is absurd, slavish, and destructive of the good and happiness of mankind.
    Personal failures are too important to be trusted to others.

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    Default Re: DEA Gently Chastized

    Quote Originally Posted by Glen Longino View Post
    Translation:
    Because of hard-headed, wall-eyed, back-woods, Arky Ignorance!
    did you ever look the other way when a fellow officer did something wrong? Until all police are willing to 'police' their own ranks, they share in and support the 'other' cops' abuse
    The doctrine of nonresistance against arbitrary power, and oppression, is absurd, slavish, and destructive of the good and happiness of mankind.
    Personal failures are too important to be trusted to others.

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    Default Re: DEA Gently Chastized

    1) They should also be reprimanded for their language. Such language is unnecessary & unprofessional
    2) A message needs to be gotten across that such behavior will not be tolerated - whatever administration it occurred under

    I see this as a sure sign of the militarization of our police forces. While there is no doubt that today's police run into plenty of tough situations, the "Seal wannabes" we see every day should not be tolerated - nor should that type of dress. All it does is further their self-image - one based on too many TV shows.

    I would think that the real police (the vast majority I believe) would be ticked off about this sort giving the profession a bad name.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Glen Longino View Post
    ..."did you ever look the other way when a fellow officer did something wrong?"...

    I did Not!
    Neither did most other policemen.
    That's your problem, Phillip, you always suspect the worst with absolutely no evidence!
    You convict the innocent daily without evidence or conscience, simply because it fits your negative view of life in general.
    I could write a book about helpless drunk and violent Texans that I saved from physical abuse by other policemen.
    Your view of policemen does not seem to include me and other policemen like me.
    You have a skewed and warped view of reality of your own choosing based on ignorance.
    police your ranks... you know who is guilty and you still tolorate them... so you get to wear their dirty underware
    The doctrine of nonresistance against arbitrary power, and oppression, is absurd, slavish, and destructive of the good and happiness of mankind.
    Personal failures are too important to be trusted to others.

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    Default Re: DEA Gently Chastized

    Quote Originally Posted by RonW View Post
    Ian --

    Failure by 2 different, or so they say administrations..what happened to the 4th amendment...this is what a police state looks like..
    It's what it looks like from the inside......in other countries you use drones.
    We don't know how lucky we are....

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    Default Re: DEA Gently Chastized

    The homeland bills made the US a potential police state, similar legislation exists here as well. As I have said before, the terrorists won because we allowed our governments to use the opportunity to establish the machinery for one.

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    Default Re: DEA Gently Chastized

    Quote Originally Posted by skuthorp View Post
    The homeland bills made the US a potential police state, similar legislation exists here as well. As I have said before, the terrorists won because we allowed our governments to use the opportunity to establish the machinery for one.
    'zactly. Ticks me off that so many in power seized this opportunity for personal gain.

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    Default Re: DEA Gently Chastized

    High adrenaline situations are really dangerous. Whether the police in this situation were already pumped up or not, and whether they failed to observe that their information was incorrect, any sensible person can understand that, once they approach a location they have reason to believe might be mortally dangerous they are under pressure to act before thinking.

    One does not go out in search of an armed doped-up drug dealer and ask polite questions about whether one is at the correct address. Had the location been the correct one, we would be mourning the necessity or logicality of some of the participants being killed or seriously wounded.

    But their language with the smaller girl was inexcusable.
    “We have tracked the economic health of the nation for a long time. The reason we track those things is that the government is full of economists, not psychologists. If we know money doesn’t buy happiness, why are we optimizing for money?”

    Adam Kramer, PhD candidate, Psychology, U. of OR.


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    no-knock warrents... it's the future... it's now
    The doctrine of nonresistance against arbitrary power, and oppression, is absurd, slavish, and destructive of the good and happiness of mankind.
    Personal failures are too important to be trusted to others.

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    Default Re: DEA Gently Chastized


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    Default Re: DEA Gently Chastized

    This is nothing new. The $500,000.00 a minute they spend has to be used somewhere. Verifying addresses is not a priority obviously.. Jun 10, 2010 … PEARL, Miss. — A Pearl family says they’re suing local law enforcement for holding them at gunpoint in their own home.
    Boy, 2, still critical after accidental police shooting in …
    Mar 28, 2010 … A 2-year-old boy shot by police Friday in Jacksonville, Fla., as they tried to nab a robbery suspect remains in critical condition.

    Police Raid Wrong House: Man, Daughter Ordered Out of Home at …

    May 29, 2010 … A man and his teenage daughter were ordered out of their home and held at gunpoint by police, only to find out it was all a mistake.

    Crime Scene – Video: Seven-year-old girl killed during Detroit …

    May 17, 2010 … The fugitive was not in their house. Police raided the wrong house and killed a 7-year old girl in her sleep. …
    Woman Hospitalized Following Botched Raid – WSB News on wsbradio.com

    May 13, 2010 … At least they didn’t shoot her like police did to the 7 year old girl in …. Two years of surveillance, and they raid the WRONG HOUSE? …

    Police Raid Wrong Apartment, Brutalize Terrified Refugees.... on and on. One elderly couple has had their house targeted over 50 times. http://the7thpwr.wordpress.com/accid...ice-shootings/
    $kipper 68 :fatal error...The more I learn,the more of danger to myself and others I've become! !

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    Default Re: DEA Gently Chastized

    it won't stop until the police have some skin in the game... when it goes wrong they go to jail
    The doctrine of nonresistance against arbitrary power, and oppression, is absurd, slavish, and destructive of the good and happiness of mankind.
    Personal failures are too important to be trusted to others.

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    Default Re: DEA Gently Chastized

    Quote Originally Posted by elf View Post
    High adrenaline situations are really dangerous. Whether the police in this situation were already pumped up or not, and whether they failed to observe that their information was incorrect, any sensible person can understand that, once they approach a location they have reason to believe might be mortally dangerous they are under pressure to act before thinking.

    One does not go out in search of an armed doped-up drug dealer and ask polite questions about whether one is at the correct address. Had the location been the correct one, we would be mourning the necessity or logicality of some of the participants being killed or seriously wounded.

    But their language with the smaller girl was inexcusable.
    That's crap and you know it. The police do not under any circumstances give any one the benefit of doubt or allow any excuses, O.K. I can accept that, but there is two people in a dance. the are no excuses for them they should be held to the same standards. Make a "mistake" you will be held accountable to the full extent of the law. Adrenaline be buggered, if they cant control their behaviour, regardless. They should hand in their badge. If they were my daughters there would be several dead DEA agents. Nobody, buit nobody would get away with that treatment of my underage children. I do not care what their job title is, I would hunt them down like the mongrel dogs they are and cheerfully do the time.

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    Default Re: DEA Gently Chastized

    Quote Originally Posted by elf View Post

    One does not go out in search of an armed doped-up drug dealer and ask polite questions about whether one is at the correct address. Had the location been the correct one, we would be mourning the necessity or logicality of some of the participants being killed or seriously wounded.
    How dangerous is a sleeping 11 year old? They were well out of line due to their own incompetence. Not tolerable in a nation of laws.

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    Default Re: DEA Gently Chastized

    How many people on this forum could shoot a gun by age 11?
    “We have tracked the economic health of the nation for a long time. The reason we track those things is that the government is full of economists, not psychologists. If we know money doesn’t buy happiness, why are we optimizing for money?”

    Adam Kramer, PhD candidate, Psychology, U. of OR.


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    Default Re: DEA Gently Chastized

    Quote Originally Posted by elf View Post
    How many people on this forum could shoot a gun by age 11?
    Oh Lordy, we just lost another one to "The Fear". Next thing you know, Emily, you'll be sleeping with a gun under the pillow in case 9 yo scooter-trash try to break in and steal your Werther's Originals.
    We don't know how lucky we are....

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    Default Re: DEA Gently Chastized

    Quote Originally Posted by elf View Post
    High adrenaline situations are really dangerous. Whether the police in this situation were already pumped up or not, and whether they failed to observe that their information was incorrect, any sensible person can understand that, once they approach a location they have reason to believe might be mortally dangerous they are under pressure to act before thinking.

    One does not go out in search of an armed doped-up drug dealer and ask polite questions about whether one is at the correct address. Had the location been the correct one, we would be mourning the necessity or logicality of some of the participants being killed or seriously wounded.

    But their language with the smaller girl was inexcusable.
    I seldom agree with Emily, but had they arrived at the right house any actions short of what they did could have easily ended up with dead DEA agents. They knew that going in the door and acted accordingly. Where they blew it in my mind was making it right once they realized they made a mistake. The officers on the scene should have apologized. Their superiors should have apologized the next day. THEIR superiors should have apologized the day after with checkbook in hand.

    Screw ups happen, its how you deal with them that really matters.

    My $0.02

    Bobby

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    Quote Originally Posted by hokiefan View Post
    I seldom agree with Emily, but had they arrived at the right house any actions short of what they did could have easily ended up with dead DEA agents.
    But they did not arrive at the right house. This makes a huge difference.

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    [QUOTE=Lew Barrett;3447748]But they did not arrive at the right house. This makes a huge difference.[/QUO
    +1

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    Default Re: DEA Gently Chastized

    Quote Originally Posted by Lew Barrett View Post
    But they did not arrive at the right house. This makes a huge difference.
    Thats why how you handle screwups matters. Screwups will happen. They blew it.

    Cheers,

    Bobby

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    Default Re: DEA Gently Chastized

    This thread is a good argument for the removal of criminal sanctions for using or posession of scheduled drugs. Bad as they are, the "cure" is not working, clearly. Alcohol prohibition lasted what, 12 or 13 years? Didn't stop people from drinking, and produced powerful gangs. Drugs have been outlawed for about a century, to what end really? FWIW, a few years ago I was on a Grand Jury panel; easily 80% of the cases before us were people on drug charges, most for possesion, or burglary to steal something to sell for drugs. Better the druggies could buy cheap legal drugs, and the money spent on enforcement used for treatment. My $.02.

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    Default Re: DEA Gently Chastized

    Too much money in the drug industry Bill, on both 'sides'. Whole industries would disappear if your logical position was adopted. There'd be half empty prisons, unemployed ex cops, unemployed lawyers and that's on the legal side. Any drug lord with an eye to more profits will be lobbying for the laws to stay the same or get stricter. Wonder how many anti politicians know where all their support comes from.

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    Default Re: DEA Gently Chastized

    Yeah, I know. Seeing how the enforcement works was scary. Earnest people but I had to wonder if they could see what they were doing. True believers, they were, mostly.

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    Default Re: DEA Gently Chastized

    Quote Originally Posted by skuthorp View Post
    Too much money in the drug industry Bill, on both 'sides'. Whole industries would disappear if your logical position was adopted. There'd be half empty prisons, unemployed ex cops, unemployed lawyers and that's on the legal side. Any drug lord with an eye to more profits will be lobbying for the laws to stay the same or get stricter. Wonder how many anti politicians know where all their support comes from.
    Exactly.

    Western banks 'reaping billions from Colombian cocaine trade'

    While cocaine production ravages countries in Central America, consumers in the US and Europe are helping developed economies grow rich from the profits, a study claims



    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012...=EMCNEWEML1355
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    Quote Originally Posted by hokiefan View Post
    I seldom agree with Emily, but had they arrived at the right house any actions short of what they did could have easily ended up with dead DEA agents. They knew that going in the door and acted accordingly. Where they blew it in my mind was making it right once they realized they made a mistake. The officers on the scene should have apologized. Their superiors should have apologized the next day. THEIR superiors should have apologized the day after with checkbook in hand.

    Screw ups happen, its how you deal with them that really matters.

    My $0.02

    Bobby

    You are wrong... Cops (using the term in it's broadest sense) are trained to escalate the situation... Yelling people awake out of a sound sleep with the sound of many feet and breaking glass and splintered wood is intended to instill terror and for no other purpose. Death threats by cops are not more acceptable than death threats by any others. A bunch of people breaking, loudly, into your house and yelling a lot of things all at once is far more likely to confuse sleepy 'victims' or cause legitimate self-defense reactions than to convince them that policemen have arrived to serve a legal warrant. I strongly suspect the police already know this... those drug sellers more than likely think in terms of defending themselves from other drug sellers than the police. The intended escalation is very probably approved of by the prosecutorial branch of urban terrorism for the sole purpose of creating MORE charges to file and make their convictions easier.
    It is too easy to arrest people in the daylight, on the street or at the grocery store to claim the only affective way is a miniature version of the night of the long knives.
    I do not support the idea of any no-knock warrants.

    I could go on…
    Last edited by Phillip Allen; 06-20-2012 at 09:59 AM. Reason: removed an offending part that wasn't needed anyway
    The doctrine of nonresistance against arbitrary power, and oppression, is absurd, slavish, and destructive of the good and happiness of mankind.
    Personal failures are too important to be trusted to others.

  42. #42
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    Default Re: DEA Gently Chastized

    Quote Originally Posted by Phillip Allen View Post
    it won't stop until the police have some skin in the game... when it goes wrong they go to jail
    They do have "skin in the game" - their lives.
    As other's said, screw up's happen. It's how you deal with them afterwards that matters.
    Stay calm, be brave....wait for the signs.

  43. #43
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    Default Re: DEA Gently Chastized

    Quote Originally Posted by Phillip Allen View Post
    You are wrong... Cops (using the term in it's broadest sense) are trained to escalate the situation... Yelling people awake out of a sound sleep with the sound of many feet and breaking glass and splintered wood is intended to instill terror and for no other purpose. Death threats by cops are not more acceptable than death threats by any others. You have watched (and believed) too many shoot-em-up shows. A bunch of people breaking, loudly, into your house and yelling a lot of things all at once is far more likely to confuse sleepy 'victims' or cause legitimate self-defense reactions than to convince them that policemen have arrived to serve a legal warrant. I strongly suspect the police already know this... those drug sellers more than likely think in terms of defending themselves from other drug sellers than the police. The intended escalation is very probably approved of by the prosecutorial branch of urban terrorism for the sole purpose of creating MORE charges to file and make their convictions easier.
    It is too easy to arrest people in the daylight, on the street or at the grocery store to claim the only affective way is a miniature version of the night of the long knives.
    I do not support the idea of any no-knock warrants.

    I could go on…
    Don't tell me how I arrived at opinions that don't match yours, because you have no clue. I haven't watched television on any regular basis in 20 years. And when I did it wasn't crime shows. So save your pontification...

    Bobby

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    Default Re: DEA Gently Chastized

    Quote Originally Posted by Steve McMahon View Post
    They do have "skin in the game" - their lives.
    As other's said, screw up's happen. It's how you deal with them afterwards that matters.
    talk about over dramatization... the people they kill have their lives in the game too... the police knew the job was dangerous when they took it and I don't want to hear any more whining about our blue soldiers not getting a fair shake.
    Certainly there are good cops but they aren't the problem... I prefer to draw attention to the problem instead of feeling obliged to ignore the shooting of pets and people and making death threats and generally acting like thugs.

    No, they do not have skin in the game if they are above the law and there are no consequences for their bad behavior... that is what I meant and I would be surprised if you didn't already know that.

    They need to be professional POLICEMEN and not soldiers.

    No-knock warrants are illegal and always have been… they and the opportunity to ‘make a profit’ from drug raids (stealing property) are the rood of the problem or maybe WERE the problem.
    The doctrine of nonresistance against arbitrary power, and oppression, is absurd, slavish, and destructive of the good and happiness of mankind.
    Personal failures are too important to be trusted to others.

  45. #45
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    Default Re: DEA Gently Chastized

    Quote Originally Posted by hokiefan View Post
    Don't tell me how I arrived at opinions that don't match yours, because you have no clue. I haven't watched television on any regular basis in 20 years. And when I did it wasn't crime shows. So save your pontification...

    Bobby
    alright, what about the rest of what I wrote and not just the part that angered you?

    here it is without the ofending sentence (I will also delete it from my original post):

    ... Cops (using the term in it's broadest sense) are trained to escalate the situation... Yelling people awake out of a sound sleep with the sound of many feet and breaking glass and splintered wood is intended to instill terror and for no other purpose. Death threats by cops are not more acceptable than death threats by any others. A bunch of people breaking, loudly, into your house and yelling a lot of things all at once is far more likely to confuse sleepy 'victims' or cause legitimate self-defense reactions than to convince them that policemen have arrived to serve a legal warrant. I strongly suspect the police already know this... those drug sellers more than likely think in terms of defending themselves from other drug sellers than the police. The intended escalation is very probably approved of by the prosecutorial branch of urban terrorism for the sole purpose of creating MORE charges to file and make their convictions easier.
    It is too easy to arrest people in the daylight, on the street or at the grocery store to claim the only affective way is a miniature version of the night of the long knives.
    I do not support the idea of any no-knock warrants.

    I could go on…
    Last edited by Phillip Allen; 06-20-2012 at 11:09 AM. Reason: still cleaning up harsh comments
    The doctrine of nonresistance against arbitrary power, and oppression, is absurd, slavish, and destructive of the good and happiness of mankind.
    Personal failures are too important to be trusted to others.

  46. #46
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    Default Re: DEA Gently Chastized

    anybody?
    The doctrine of nonresistance against arbitrary power, and oppression, is absurd, slavish, and destructive of the good and happiness of mankind.
    Personal failures are too important to be trusted to others.

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    Default Re: DEA Gently Chastized

    Tell us what you really think Glen! And don't hold back this time.

  48. #48
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    Default Re: DEA Gently Chastized

    Quote Originally Posted by Phillip Allen View Post
    alright, what about the rest of what I wrote and not just the part that angered you?

    here it is without the ofending sentence (I will also delete it from my original post):

    ... Cops (using the term in it's broadest sense) are trained to escalate the situation... Yelling people awake out of a sound sleep with the sound of many feet and breaking glass and splintered wood is intended to instill terror and for no other purpose. Death threats by cops are not more acceptable than death threats by any others. A bunch of people breaking, loudly, into your house and yelling a lot of things all at once is far more likely to confuse sleepy 'victims' or cause legitimate self-defense reactions than to convince them that policemen have arrived to serve a legal warrant. I strongly suspect the police already know this... those drug sellers more than likely think in terms of defending themselves from other drug sellers than the police. The intended escalation is very probably approved of by the prosecutorial branch of urban terrorism for the sole purpose of creating MORE charges to file and make their convictions easier.
    It is too easy to arrest people in the daylight, on the street or at the grocery store to claim the only affective way is a miniature version of the night of the long knives.
    I do not support the idea of any no-knock warrants.

    I could go on…
    We'll agree to disagree. Drug dealers in urban areas are most often armed and have no compunction about who they shoot. Treating them as anything less than armed and dangerous combatants would be a mistake in my mind. It is a very different world from the sleepy little town I grew up in.

    I think the DEA agents should have de-escalated quicker, and apologized sooner. They also should have vetted the target address more carefully. My $0.02

    Bobby

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    Default Re: DEA Gently Chastized

    Quote Originally Posted by hokiefan View Post
    We'll agree to disagree. Drug dealers in urban areas are most often armed and have no compunction about who they shoot. Treating them as anything less than armed and dangerous combatants would be a mistake in my mind. It is a very different world from the sleepy little town I grew up in.

    I think the DEA agents should have de-escalated quicker, and apologized sooner. They also should have vetted the target address more carefully. My $0.02

    Bobby
    What about all that 'collateral damage'? Shoot people then apologize quicker? Beat people up the apologize quicker? Destroy property then apologize?

    No more no-knock warrants
    The doctrine of nonresistance against arbitrary power, and oppression, is absurd, slavish, and destructive of the good and happiness of mankind.
    Personal failures are too important to be trusted to others.

  50. #50
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    Default Re: DEA Gently Chastized

    Quote Originally Posted by Phillip Allen View Post
    I could go on…
    Pretty sure nobody on this forum has ever questioned this.
    Mother, should I trust the government. . .

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