Atkin Little Maid of Kent Design Query

[Bob Cleek]

Chris, there is no end to the good boats that have been designed and are out there waiting to be built. Myself, I would offer some rules of thumb in a "stream of consciousness" form.

1. If you are thinking seriously of singlehanding, read everything the Hiscocks have written. They weren't single handers, but they sailed as if they were. A lot of practical experience in their cruising books.

2. Plywood has no place in a proper boat larger than a rowboat, and even then, only junky ones. (I can hear the howls now, but them's the facts.)

3. Plans touting they produce "easy to build" boats generally produce crappy boats. Good designs aren't marketed based on their ease of construction, even if they are easy to build.

4. Keep it simple. To the extent anything on a boat can be simplified, so much the better. Store-bought gizmos will fail. Complex systems require continual maintenance in the marine environment.

5. Indigeneous working watercraft which have evolved over generations are almost always the best choice for their local waters, or waters similar to that. (They are also often "easy to build!")

6. You get what you pay for. "Cheap to build" yields a cheap boat to begin with. "Cheap to operate" is much more important than "cheap to build."

7. Be realistic about your limitations, especially if singlehanding. There is a limit to the size of a sail one man can handle. Same with the size of the boat. For example, beyond a certain size, 30' perhaps, one man can't handle the ground tackle. The right sized anchor and chain (mandatory anywhere there's rocks or coral about and preferred elsewhere) simply become too heavy. So you buy a manual anchor windlass, which ain't cheap... or, God forbid, an electric one... which means heavy battery capacity and charging ability... and, you see where it goes?

8. Standing headroom and an enclosed head are very expensive luxuries until you are into a 40' or larger hull. Really. "Bent headroom" is more than adequate and available in most 25' and above displacement hulls. You sit and sleep below and you work on deck. The cost of a doghouse is the loss of the ability to carry a rigid dinghy on deck (unless you want to lose your foredeck and have no place to handle headsails and ground tackle.) If you must, you can "enclose" a head (bucket) with a curtain or a closed companionway door. If you are singlehanding, what's the point?

9. Always build a boat with an eye to taking it apart some day. This will need to happen as time passes. This is not much of a practical option with cold molding, strip planking, plywood, epoxy adhesive laminated hulls and so on. Always assume that if a crusing boat requires major repairs, the need will arise in some God forsaken place way behind the back of beyond. Don't expect anybody to be able to weld your stainless or aluminum in a local native fishing village. In this regard, hand tools rule.


As for boats and their ease of construction and low cost, look no farther than the home waters of your youth. The British Isles have any number of fine fishing boats from the last couple of centuries which make excellent cruising boats. These aren't limited to the now-famous Bristol Channel Pilot Cutters (nor any number of knock-offs that may look similar above the waterline, but are not at all the same thing. Sorry, Mr. Hess, but your "BCC's" aren't even close, even if they are nice boats in their own right.)

Consider, for example, the West Cork Mackerel Yawl (a cutter, actually, but called a yawl locally.)



Her lines are at: http://tradboats.ie/project//Userfil.../linesplan.pdf

Or the Connemara hooker:



Lines and photos of these classic gaffers can be found on line (free to use) at the Traditional Boats of Ireland Project website. http://tradboats.ie/project/ The book "Inshore Craft" is chock full of similar boats from Scotland and England. These boats can be built with little more than hand tools, as they traditionally were. All galvanized fastenings. Very little hardware. Suitable for an outboard, or an inboard engine if you want to get fancy. Limited, but very efficient sail plans which are easy to singlehand. (Those fishermen were not fools!) These boats can be finished "workboat fashion" and look quite smart, or, if you wish, "yotty" with varnish and all that. They have a lot of volume and you can provide for standing headroom and a "powder room" if you must.

What is remarkable about these boats is that they require little or no lofting or complex bevel calculations. They are "lofted on the stocks," with patterns and measurements taken from battened molds. All one really needs is the stem shape, the angle of the stern post, and three sections. You can build them to whatever size you require, using the rules of thumb for their design. Everything else flows from there. There is a great small book and DVD which shows a fellow building a 35' hooker without much more than a thickness planer, a chainsaw, and hand tools. It is really worth a read. The lines for the boat come with the DVD. http://www.irelandonfilm.com/nasaora1.html I dare anybody to watch that video and not want to build a boat! It's a great confidence builder.

Anyhow, you'll do what feels best for you in the end. Boats are like wives and waffles, you usually have to throw the first one out before you find a keeper.

[jalmberg]

I could just be having a bad hair day,BUT, i find it rather irksome when someone else,be it with the best of intentions, decides that someones dream boat is not suited to that persons dream.

I agree. These kind of 'what do you think?' threads alway seem to end up with people saying "Build my boat" or, more likely, "Build my dream boat". That's normal, since everyone thinks that their boat, (or wife, or kid) is the most beautiful, talented, amazing, or whatever. But it can be discouraging for the original poster.

My advice is the same: choose the boat that makes your heart go pitter patter. Love and passion are the only things that will get you over the hump, if you actually start to build her (or even better, find one for sale.)

[skaraborgcraft]

I also dont have a problem with plywood. I lived onboard a small plywood sloop for a few years that i renovated,and although not much rot in ANY of the plywood,there was rot in the chines and hog (mahogany). That boat was 36 years old when it crossed the Atlantic. Ever priced up some Bruynzeel plywood? Nothing cheap or nasty about that at all. Again, everyone welcome to an opinion,but to state that plywood has no place in a well built yacht goes beyond it for me. Cheers

[chrisgent3107@gmail.com]

Chris.....If you get over the schooner thing, Mark Smaalders has made a good attempt at simplifying the construction of small traditional cruisers.......http://smaalders.net/yacht_design/homemod.htm

Thanks Tad,

I will research this.

[chrisgent3107@gmail.com]

Bob,

You have sent me a veritable epistle of information! Thanks for all your advice! I relate positively to much of what you have written.

I like the keep it simple concept, traditional is ideal, if I can find the right design. I won't limit myself to ruling out good quality ply construcion, if it suits my budget. This has to be fulfilment of the dream a) to build my own boat and b) sail it into and through my retirement. I'll get help for some of the work if needed and will aim to have the build time within 36 months. I am not about trying to create a monument. I really want to SAIL and in my own build if possible.

The issue of standing room is emblazened into my mind by only ever having owned small boats with max 4 ft 6 in headroom. The short charter I had in the Mediterranean on a 30 footer convinced me that it was both a manageable size and headroom was a Necessity rather than a luxury.

I am going to do some real research on all the great pointers you have sent me. Thank you kindly for your amazingly generous contribution!

Cheers, Chris.

[Bob Cleek]

Bob,

You have sent me a veritable epistle of information! Thanks for all your advice! I relate positively to much of what you have written.

I like the keep it simple concept, traditional is ideal, if I can find the right design. I won't limit myself to ruling out good quality ply construcion, if it suits my budget. This has to be fulfilment of the dream a) to build my own boat and b) sail it into and through my retirement. I'll get help for some of the work if needed and will aim to have the build time within 36 months. I am not about trying to create a monument. I really want to SAIL and in my own build if possible.

The issue of standing room is emblazened into my mind by only ever having owned small boats with max 4 ft 6 in headroom. The short charter I had in the Mediterranean on a 30 footer convinced me that it was both a manageable size and headroom was a Necessity rather than a luxury.

I am going to do some real research on all the great pointers you have sent me. Thank you kindly for your amazingly generous contribution!

Cheers, Chris.

Happy to help, Chris. I think my comments on plywood are often mistaken by those who embrace it without thinking critically. (Plywood has its place in bulkheads and interior cabinetry, and even in decks and cabin tops to some extent, of course. I'm talking about hull construction here.) Yes, you can build all sorts of small boat hulls out of plywood and have a lot of fun. However, when you get into larger boats, you have to consider your investment not only in money but also in time and balance that against what you will have in the end. A plywood cruising boat simply will never have anything near the resale value of a traditionally built boat, considering the same design and construction detail. There is a huge amount of advertising hype put out by plywood and epoxy manufacturers about how their products are a quick, easy and inexpensive way to build a boat. The material is simply not well suited to the compound curves on the customary round bottomed displacement hull. It is NOT cheap if you buy marine grade sheets. It is even less cheap when one considers the amount of off-cut waste when using material that is limited to 4'x8' sheets and the cost of expensive epoxy sheathing. And it is not easily repairable. A traditionally built carvel or lapstrake hull will always be worth more than a plywood, laminated, strip planked, googe covered hull. (And this from first hand experience working in a yacht brokerage.) They can argue all they want about which is "better," but no matter. The market says traditional planking and framing is worth more. Traditional construction methods are far easier, as well. I think most who have done it both ways would agree. If you are thinking of building a boat yourself, it would seem that a lot of smaller pieces are going to be easier to handle than larger ones. A sheet of 1" plywood is going to weigh around 100 pounds, and probably more if you are using tropical hardwood ply. Certainly, a keel beam and other major structural members can easily weigh much more, but when it comes to planking, it is a lot easier to horse around a flitch than it is to horse around a 100 pound sheet of plywood and with the grown wood, you won't be scarfing every eight feet and losing in length 24 times the thickness of the plywood each time you do.

Don't worry about headroom. There is plenty of headroom in most 30' displacement hulls with a trunk cabin, if need be. In the size ranges you are talking about, I think headroom will take care of itself. The lines of the 33' West Cork Mackerel Yawl I mentioned above show she should have six or seven feet of headroom below deck before a cabin is even considered.

Everybody's mileage will vary. Everybody "dances with the girl he brought." However, I've never seen the point in getting my back up when somebody said one kind of boat or another was better than mine. Of course they are. None of us (well, maybe except Larry Ellison) can afford to buy the "best" boat. Somebody is always going to have the next boat we will end up lusting after. At some point, we have to settle down and simply accept our limitations. Only then does it start really being fun.

[skaraborgcraft]

I can agree that a traditional built boat,to good design,to a good standard and with good ie;bronze or copper fastened will generally have higher resale value.....they also cost more to build to start with.

I have never met anyone who has ever used 1in ply for planking,let alone in a full sheet,it wouldnt bend.
Not easily repairable..........if you cant repair a hole in a plywood boat then you definately do not have the skills to build a carvel vessel.

Cost......of course marine grade ply is not cheap,neither is good quality planking lumber. You could build with exterior plywood or plank with lob-lolly pine, both would work,but not long lived. Im not advocating a cheap construction.

Scarfing plywood sheets......not absolutely neccessary, my 30ft cruiser was built with butt blocks, not an issue.

EDIT: When i build a boat,my first concern is not about "re-sale value" or what "the market" considers. I build a boat for MY needs,in a form I find desirable and in a manner that I want to build and from MY choice of materials. If you are constantly thinking about resale issues,then you are not building your dreamship.

No one with any sense is going to attempt to plank a curvacious hull like an Eric with plywood...unless of course it was ripped into 6in strips and laid diagonally and a boat like Eric would need a few layers and a lot of glue,but it would have strength in all directions and need minimal framing and would be a tight hull,no caulking or planking shrinkage.

IF i was suggesting ply,then a chine design,either single or multi and designed for that material would be my suggestion,not a hull designed for traditional planking,though as above it can be done,and PROBABLY at greater expense than a sigle plank carvel build,but PROBABLY not as cheap as a single chine in plywood. Depends where you are and how much you pay for your materials.

Im not suggesting plywood is the best material,just offering it as a suggestion. Many thousands of plywood boats have been built,and MANY have cruised extensively for years with probably less maintenace than a trad built carvel. Its an option, but i still think its up to Chris to decide what he wants,and what build method. For his build location,real hardwood planking sounds like the way to go,but without seeing what quality plywood is availiable,i PERSONALLY would keep my options wide open. Cheers

[johngsandusky]

Chris, I think you're wise to try to limit your build time. There are two beautiful, owner built, cruisers in my home harbor. They are an amazing testament to the ability of their owners, artwork on the water. But each took some twenty years to construct. I'm glad they built them, but I'm also glad I bought mine.

[jalmberg]

One sensible way to build a large boat these days is strip-planked. My boat was built with good quality Douglas Fir, with laminated frames. Advantages: very strong; you don't need to find large quantities of expensive and hard to find boat lumber; simple, pretty much fool proof construction method.

I'd also find a copy of George Buehler's "Backyard Boatbuilding". If I was ever crazy enough to build a big boat, I think I'd take many, many pages out of George's book, so maybe I could finish the boat before I got too old to enjoy it. You might want to check out his designs and see how much you can apply to your own dream boat.

And George is still kicking, and it's always good to be able to call up a designer for help.

http://www.georgebuehler.com/

He's really hot on trawler's these days, but if you click around, you will find his sailboat designs.

[skaraborgcraft]

As a plus,almost any boat orginally designed for carvel could PROBABLY be built in strip, yes it does mean using something between the strips,but it does not have to be epoxy. It IS far easier to strip plank with smaller dimensioned wood than to spile,scrub out,and possibly steam planks into position,but of course there are always exceptions. Both strip plank and cold moulded have mostly been considered the most difficult to repair,but in this day of epoxy,miracles can be performed. Larry Pardy says he would consider a strip built with cold moulded overlay,so that must say something to those that take some faith in whatever he says,but its just another opinion. Builders ability and material choice/availiability will probably narrow down construction choice. What wooden boat building books have you read Chris?

[chrisgent3107@gmail.com]

As a plus,almost any boat orginally designed for carvel could PROBABLY be built in strip, yes it does mean using something between the strips,but it does not have to be epoxy. It IS far easier to strip plank with smaller dimensioned wood than to spile,scrub out,and possibly steam planks into position,but of course there are always exceptions. Both strip plank and cold moulded have mostly been considered the most difficult to repair,but in this day of epoxy,miracles can be performed. Larry Pardy says he would consider a strip built with cold moulded overlay,so that must say something to those that take some faith in whatever he says,but its just another opinion. Builders ability and material choice/availiability will probably narrow down construction choice. What wooden boat building books have you read Chris?

Dear Sakaraborgcraft (Sorry don't know your real name.) and others who've been posting,

First my apologies for the silence. I've been busy trying to digest all the various (sometimes conflicting) views of this respectable community.

My Reading :
Build books read so far are limited to George Buehler's Backyard Boat Building and I'm now plowing my way through the recommended Rober Steward's Boatbuilding Manual. Have tried Chappele's book but find myself getting bogged down in details and find it hard to understand some of his writing style. Think it'd be best to treat Chappele as a reference book for complex parts of the build process as they arise.

I reckon my best understanding so far has been obtained from George Buehler plus thorough 3x reading of J. Madison's Thread on WBF's Building section "Building the Maid (of Endor)". Then there was the answers given me here re the molds on stations (one of my original questions in Post #1)

Bob Cleek, thank you for your suggestion.
I have looked at the Irish traditional boats on the web. Somehow they don't really appeal to me. I can't really tell you why. Studied them carefully and found I just preferred the Atkin shapes altogether. Perhaps it is the Atkin sheer lines, but my instincts keep leading me back to that web site.

Skara, in your post number 47, you mentioned that an Atkin "Eric" would be an asset if built in Teak. This was exactly what I also thought when I first started looking maybe 3 years ago. I read and re-read all I could find on the Eric. I even scoured around the bilges of 2 similar Westsail 32s in Bali. I concluded that the Eric would just be too heavy (and thus slow??) for the Java Sea. Checking on Windguru over the last year suggest that the normal winds in Java Sea are between 5 and 15 knots, which I would categorize as too light to get and Eric really moving properly. Do you agree with this conclusion? Anyway, Movinh onwards from the Eric, I came across the Little Maid, which I thought might be a better sailor than the Eric (for light airs anways.)

So, I have been spending much time on Atkin's site again. I also like the lines of Atkin " Fore &Aft". It has a Gaff Rig and the sail area at just over 700 sq ft vs Cruising Displ of 19,200 lbs. What's that mean in an SA/D ratio? Will try to look this up! Do you think this would be a more spritely sailer than the Little Maid of Kent?? Does the web site show it has standing headroom of 5 ft 10 ins? The eXact words used are "..... the headroom under the cabin trunk ".........? This seems pretty clear to me. There again, the rig for this vessel shows 3 jibs and a top sail. Do you think this would be a bit too much for me to handle?

On the issue of Ply construction, I have also checked up the George Buehler's web site. I quite like the lines of Juna Janu's Dautter. Designed as less tender than the Juno, and set up as ideal for a single hander. I must admit this just doesn't look as pretty as the Atkin lines and it's cabin seems a bit short, but hey, there's also a gaff rig option and the build could be really straight lines into chine and Rabbet just like George endorses so strongly.

On the issue of build type, I would really like to be able carvel plank on frame, unless the hardwood costs for the good stuff are prohibitive. I may even check out prices next trip and then try to set aside the wood for the build 3 years down the line....?? If the costs are beyond the budget, then I guess I'm gonna be looking at ply on frame, tho the Atkin designs aren't really ideal for this method. I've not read enough on either strip plank or cold moulded building to be able to express an opinion. It may be an easier, I just don't know know either.

Anyway, would you guys mind giving some thought to these 2 alternatives for me in terms of suitability for short ir single handed sailing and primarily in light air cruising?

a) Atkin Fore & Aft. Possibly thoughts on full sail plan & topsail etc. http://www.atkinboatplans.com/Sail/ForeAnAft.html
b) Buehler's Juna Juno's Dautter. http://www.georgebuehler.com/Juna.html

Thank you again for your collective patience.

Chris

[skaraborgcraft]

Chris, first off,you must realise you will sometimes get conflicting information from any forum,its the nature of the beast due to personel views or experience. Sometimes its hard for people to give non biased advice.

Out of the Buehler designs, "Junos Daughter" would be my choice. At 22,000lb displacement,its only slightly heavier than Fore n Aft at 19,200lbs. SA/D is sail area to displacement ratio. An explanation of this and other formula you may find of use by Ted Brewer on this link; http://www.tedbrewer.com/yachtdesign.html Its a way of knowing how well a boat may perform,the higher the number, the better performing it should be in light airs,which by the sounds of it is going to be a major concern in your cruising area. If you actually want to sail,rather than motor,you are going to have to look at increasing the sail area on some of the designs you like,such as Eric,or start looking for designs of lighter displacement,and thus a higher ratio of sail area. As an example, a Didi 34 by Dudly Dix http://www.dixdesign.com/34didi.htm ) This boat,has half of the displacement of either of the two boats mentioned,yet still has a good ratio of ballast,meaning she will carry sail well.Her SA/D is a massive improvement of 18.7. This suggests that she will be more likely to sail in light winds than the other two. She is also of a size than can be easily handled by one,yet has room for guests. Bear in mind,displacement is a good guide to building cost,and this particular boat would probably come in at half the price of the other two. Im showing this as an example of light displacement construction and good sail area, i know its not as asthetically pleasing to look at as a schooner,but the numbers need an explanation. Hope that has not confused you further?

Again,an Atkin boat has pedigree,and if built right,will probably not loose any much,if any,of your investment. Having said that, Beuhler boats have been sold for more than construction costs too......again,much of this is down to your preference of build,but a Fore n Aft in those typical light winds would be a non starter in my book for the same reason the chap with the Westsail was selling his, too under-canvased for the local conditions.

Just bear in mind that a carvel build in the conditions you are talking about would not be able to be left ashore for any length of time(unless monsoon season) without drying out. If the boat is kept permently afloat its not such a big issue, but one of the reasons i mentioned plywood/sheathed strip plank or cold moulded as an alternative. A good book on this construction may be Ian Nicholson "cold-moulded and strip built boat building", worth grabbing off Amazon and may help you make a better informed desicion about a build method,theres also "the laminated wood boatbuilder", but i find there is more info in Nicholsons book should you just wish to buy the one...its all in there. Cheers (Ian)

[skaraborgcraft]

Chris, did you check out Tads suggestion of Smaadlers site? http://smaalders.net/yacht_design/wynfall1.html
Slightly lighter construction than a typical Atkin,with better SA/D ratios. Similar style to Fore n Aft. The 32 footer,and its layout is a real sea boat,in my opinion.

Also check out Ed Burnett. http://www.burnettyachtdesign.co.uk/010zinnia.html

Zinnia is a handy sized boat and could go anywhere,again classic style and good performance. Different build options on the hull and fit out to save costs. She has got more internal room than the same size Beuhler boat "emily" (though emily has a canoe stern((my preference)).

Smaadlers yachts are mostly canoe bodied which is a bit easier to plank than some Atkin style hulls with reverse curves. But its all relative depending on your attitude and determination. Cheers

[J.Madison]

Hi Chris,
I see you have gotten a lot of responses and I admit to not having read them all yet. As to your original question about the frame placement- I had the same conundrum on my Maid. I didn't know what the proper way to handle it was so I made up my own. The proper way is to build with molds on the stations and only the intermediate frames bent in before planking. After planking the molds are removed and the remainder of the frames bent in. I think.

My solution was to offset the frames by one half of their spacing and bend them all in at once. I carefully checked to make sure this wouldn't interfere with deck beam placement, chainplates, etc.. before making the change. I decided it would work and in my ignorance went ahead with it. And I'm glad I did. The only downside was that it slightly changed the way the first and last frames interact with the ends, but I ended up with one more frame set than designed so I figured I was only adding strength.

Hopefully that helps to answer your question. I didn't want to bend in frames after planking because there isn't any good way to clamp them and you lose the opportunity to fair their lower ends, they just get jammed down in the socket if you cut sockets. (maybe people don't cut sockets for the station frames?)

As for which boat design you should end up choosing- I'll let the others weigh in there. Just remember, whatever you pick, you are the one that has to build it and live with it so don't let anyone make you choose something you don't want.

My only other advice is that EVERY one of the boats mentioned is a MUCH bigger project than they first seem. That's just the nature of the beast. I spent all day today fiddling with one plank and I'm not even sure it is much better than when I started. These things happen. Expect them.

Best of luck to you.

-Jonathan

[chrisgent3107@gmail.com]

One sensible way to build a large boat these days is strip-planked. My boat was built with good quality Douglas Fir, with laminated frames. Advantages: very strong; you don't need to find large quantities of expensive and hard to find boat lumber; simple, pretty much fool proof construction method.

....................

And George is still kicking, and it's always good to be able to call up a designer for help.

http://www.georgebuehler.com/

He's really hot on trawler's these days, but if you click around, you will find his sailboat designs.

Hey John,

Thanks for this. I already have George's book and it has helped a lot in de-mystifying the chine build process greatly. I am not absolutely sure, but I believe the mean winds in my proposed sailing arena (Java Sea Indonesia) are likely to be in the range of 5-15 knots except for the occaisional storm squalls. It now seems likely to me that George's designs are likely to be (heavy , thus ) reluctant to sail well in such light airs.

That has persuaded me to think a little further afield with traditional appearing designs. It has been suggested to me that Smaalders and Burnett (UK) have some lighter yet traditional looking boats.

I'm currently researching these. And I will be ordering Ian Nicholson's book on strip planking, to savour and hopefully acquire some understanding of this option.

Thank you sonverely for your comments. Cheers, Chris

[chrisgent3107@gmail.com]

Chris, did you check out Tads suggestion of Smaadlers site? http://smaalders.net/yacht_design/wynfall1.html
Slightly lighter construction than a typical Atkin,with better SA/D ratios. Similar style to Fore n Aft. The 32 footer,and its layout is a real sea boat,in my opinion.

Also check out Ed Burnett. http://www.burnettyachtdesign.co.uk/010zinnia.html

Zinnia is a handy sized boat and could go anywhere,again classic style and good performance. Different build options on the hull and fit out to save costs. She has got more internal room than the same size Beuhler boat "emily" (though emily has a canoe stern((my preference)).

Smaadlers yachts are mostly canoe bodied which is a bit easier to plank than some Atkin style hulls with reverse curves. But its all relative depending on your attitude and determination. Cheers

Ian,
Thank you very much for all this input. Dudley Dix designs are amazing but they're just not my cup of tea. On the other hand, I really liked both the Smaalders and Burnett websights. In particular, the Smaalder Kahuna struck me as more suitable for me than the Wynfall. Then the Burnett Zinnea also appealed a lot. I guess I am getting much better vibes from the traditional look, and both those models appear to have it, whilst also having a better SA/D ratio. (Almost like I could get something that looked like an Atkin, but had less drawbacks from the older designs. Hopefully.)

As for build method, I am going to get a copy of Ian Nicholson's book off Amazon, so that I can at least consider cold molded and/or strip planked methods.

I am gradually coming around to the truism that there really isn't a perfect boat for everyone and that I truly have to fall in love with the type of compromise choice I opt for. I also understand why there is such diversity of opinion in WBF, as each person has their own distinct version of the ideal compromise from their own viewpoint.

Now I am beginning to feel like I am making some progress after the muddle I felt some days ago. You have really helped me a lot.

Thank you.

Chris

[skaraborgcraft]

We all need some kind of guideance at times. Definately best to keep in mind compromise.I believe ,once you have read the book, that strip plank is a good alternative to traditional carvel. As Johnathon said, this is a big undertaking,but by no means impossible,it just needs determination and funds. Wynfall is about the smallest boat i would choose,but would prefer something a little larger like Zinnia. Kahuna is just as much a dreamship in its own way as an Eric,and these days would find just as many potential,if not more buyers,should that be an issue. I dont know of any other designers that have done a good job of classic style in a modern lighter construction and puled it off as well these two have, though i dont doubt there are other designs out there you may find appealing. Half the fun is looking for the right design to start with. Good luck! Cheers

[CapnJ2ds]

But it actually suits her character and adds useability in the form of standing headroom in the galley. In a place (PNW) where it's always raining this is huge......



Can't carry "much more" in what? Perhaps full sail is what she will carry in the usual 25-30 knots of San Francisco Bay, but in our usual 5-8 she can carry a great deal more.



Chris shouldn't have it because it "is not very efficient"........Well then I guess we should all be sailing the latest plastic whatzit? We're told they are terribly efficient, it must be so.......But efficient at what? Take a pair of identical Maids, schooner rig on one ketch rig on the other, identical sail area......reach/reach race course....who wins? Best skipper every time.......

Thank god we don't all want the "most efficient" thing, that some are interested in other attributes.......

And I don't think there's any good reason to say schooners under 40' are "are not very efficient". I don't think size has anything to do with it. How well a particular boat works has to do with many things, the rig is only part of it.

Have to agree with your post , Tad.
My schooner was 12.5m (still is, as far as I know ) so just over that mystical 40' but was an excellent sailer. Yes, with no light sails at all she was a bit under canvassed in the lighter, flukier weather where I normally sailed her, but that was compensated in the heavier, gustier stuff which was just as frequent in the same area. It is an easy rig to single-hand in such small sizes. Some of the alleged "inefficiency" comes through not taking the time to learn how to sail the rig properly.

There are a few very nice schooners of even smaller size than "Little Maid"; Billy Atkin's "America Junior" and Peterson's "Susan" come to mind.

No, if you gotta have a schooner, you gotta have a schooner, and bugger so-called efficiency! As someone has remarked in a post above, if said efficiency was so important, we'd all have plastic sloops with carbon fibre spars etc etc. In fact the most efficient rig for windward work is diesel.

N.B Tad; how do you do that business of breaking up a quote so you can tackle the points one at a time? Haven't been able to work it out myself.

[TR]

N.B Tad; how do you do that business of breaking up a quote so you can tackle the points one at a time? Haven't been able to work it out myself.

To the list of successful small schooners I'll add a number of designs by Sam Crocker (no fool).......Sea Dawn (36' loa) drawn for Rudder with 12 or 13 different rigs had both a gaff for'sl and staysail schooner rig. Grey Gull II at 36' LOA is another, also Aunt Sara at 35' and Kittiwake at 37'.

In vee bottoms John G. Hanna drew a schooner rig for the Gulfweed (27' loa) in 1923.

The 26' waterline (35' loa) Nova Scotia fishing schooner Cimba averaged 150 miles a day across the Pacific, equal to the average speed of the sloop rigged Vertue, and for sure good going in such a small boat.

Then there are the small Garden designed schooners, Gleam (33' loa, 23' lwl), Rainbird (40' loa, 28' lwl), and Toadstool (29' lod, 23' lwl), among others.

Finally there are two nice small schooners designed and built by Peter Van Dine of Annapolis. The 25' double-ended Tancook (12 built), and a boat similar to Cimba, (about 35') a miniature fishing schooner perfectly proportioned. I'll try and find the drawings of that.

Also there's Ted Brewer's racing schooner Ingenue and the production Lazyjack design.

CapJ,

To break up the quotes you use what are called HTML "tags". When you hit the "Reply with quote" button the forum opens a window showing the posting (ready to edit by you) enclosed in "tags" that use a square bracket and quote in capitals and a slash-quote at the end. You just add more of those in your posting to stop and start the quotes. Just quote in brackets at the beginning and slash quote at the end. It's easier to see it all if you go to "advanced" reply, just a bigger window that's simpler to lay out.

[gilberj]

Tad, Glad you mentioned Cimba...As a teen I sailed some on a schooner the same size as Cimba, built by Vernon Langelle, a couple of years after he built Cimba. arguably a very similar boat. Great boat.

[CapnJ2ds]

To the list of successful small schooners I'll add a number of designs by Sam Crocker (no fool).......Sea Dawn (36' loa) drawn for Rudder with 12 or 13 different rigs had both a gaff for'sl and staysail schooner rig. Grey Gull II at 36' LOA is another, also Aunt Sara at 35' and Kittiwake at 37'. In vee bottoms John G. Hanna drew a schooner rig for the Gulfweed (27' loa) in 1923.

Oh yes indeedy! And all the others you mention ................ There's a "Toadstool" here called "Jersey Lilly".

The 26' waterline (35' loa) Nova Scotia fishing schooner Cimba averaged 150 miles a day across the Pacific, equal to the average speed of the sloop rigged Vertue, and for sure good going in such a small boat.

I'm ashamed to admit I've never read "The Saga of Cimba", but was she the little schooner that crossed the Pacific towing a dory? I know someone did the crossing with a dory tagging on behind, but had a vague (and probably mistaken) idea that it was a few decades earlier than Maury.

CapJ,
To break up the quotes you use what are called HTML "tags". When you hit the "Reply with quote" button the forum opens a window showing the posting (ready to edit by you) enclosed in "tags" that use a square bracket and quote in capitals and a slash-quote at the end. You just add more of those in your posting to stop and start the quotes. Just quote in brackets at the beginning and slash quote at the end. It's easier to see it all if you go to "advanced" reply, just a bigger window that's simpler to lay out.

Thanks for that! Think I've got it - simple when you know how, eh?

[JimD]

9. Always build a boat with an eye to taking it apart some day. This will need to happen as time passes. This is not much of a practical option with cold molding, strip planking, plywood, epoxy adhesive laminated hulls and so on. Always assume that if a crusing boat requires major repairs, the need will arise in some God forsaken place way behind the back of beyond. Don't expect anybody to be able to weld your stainless or aluminum in a local native fishing village. In this regard, hand tools rule.

Every cruising boat should carry tools and basic repair needs when far from home. I would just take along a couple big jugs of epoxy and boxes of SS fasteners, a roll of FG cloth, etc. How much major repair should your hull need? If it needs that much repair it would likely be evident before you set out and if that's the case it should be dealt with before you leave home port.

[Farfalla]

Tad listed quite a few small schooners. You could add several Aldens to that list as well, he apparently did quite a few under 40', "Tyhee" was one, apparently she was quite a good sea boat.
There were a couple of others called "Wanderlure" IIRC.
Murray Petersen had a few as well besides "Susan".
Beautiful boats all of them.

[TR]

The Alden 36' Tyhee (1927) fisherman type is truly a beautiful boat though I'll guess her accommodations would be minimal. Another Alden is #172 Tyche, a 27' (1922) that could have been the forerunner to Petersen's Susan.

There's also the Phil Rhodes designed Mary Jeanne II (1922), a 36' clipper style gaff schooner with 29' lwl, 24,000 pound displacement, and 800 sq ft of sail.

The 19' Hawk (1973) designed and built by Hale Field in California.

Another vee-bottom is Tom Colvin's 34' Saugeen Witch.

I don't know about Cimba towing a dinghy across the Pacific, there is a picture of her with a dinghy in tow off the Bahamas but the Pacific pictures show no dinghy. Get the book, I will never forget Maury's description of the watch-on-watch sailing in the tradewinds. Two men, a 19 day passage, and no self-steering meant they barely saw each other during the voyage.